New Archetype: Commander

[Exaltist Ethan]

Primary: Pets. Secondary: Assault.

Would have a bonus that would alternate between increasing pet damage and increasing damage from self. 

 

This idea seems so natural to me. Pets are only used in masterminds as their primary and assault is only used in dominators secondary. Assault would really round out a character that has pets has their primary.

 

Is this a good idea? Let me know what you think.

[Rudra]

I'm inclined to say no. Reason being, the MM's secondaries work to keep the pets alive and fighting, and pets are surprisingly squishy. Cycling attacks and buffs/debuffs keeps an MM pretty busy. Unless they are a player that just lets their pets die and keeps re-summoning, but that would also keep the MM pretty busy constantly summoning. So adding more attacks to the MM such as in your suggested AT would make the MM's attacks the primary focus rather than the pets and leave the pets effectively unsupported. As for boosting pet damage and your own damage, the Leadership pool gives you Assault. I don't have any MMs that don't run Assault, Maneuvers, and Tactics to boost pets, and myself.

 

Basically, you are asking to run a pet-centric AT (Primary: Pets) without the support abilities to keep your pets in the fight. I may be wrong, but you will probably find the AT face-planting about mid-game on.

[Six-Six]

Rudra's right. Pets are squishy and need considerable heals and buffs. Hence the rise of the Tankermind.

But, I like the idea of taking the lead and attacking with a 6-man (beast/demon/robot) support. I don't mind being squishy, I'm used to it. Rise, Blastermind. 😃

[Underfyre]

So an assault set that will be very squishy, paired with pets that are also very squishy. I like it. Give it a Scrapper/Blaster level modifier or higher. Glass cannon or bust.

[Shazbotacus]

This is something I've been thinking about. I know the role of the classic Mastermind is to support pets because they're squishy as you all say, but I still think something like this can work and I've mentioned it on the Discord channel. It just needs the powersets tailored to allow the player to take the lead. Replace the attacks and special buff in a pet set with defensive powers and change the pets to do something other than damage to the enemies they are told to target.

In my head, this'd be okay if the player provided damage, generated aggro, and had their own defense toggles and other survivability powers. Pets, meanwhile, would provide proactive mitigation via debuffs and CC and maybe some supplementary damage. In that way, pets help their own survivability in the same way Necromancy's Lich does: by debilitating enemies' ability to do harm Dark Defender style, and this helps the player as well. The player uses damage, their own armor toggles, and perhaps even an aggro generating inherent to take the enemies on and withstand their attention, and the pets help them in doing this as well.

[Rudra]

Then how about a twist on the idea. If the idea is to make the player the primary and the pets take over a support role, then shift it to Primary: Assault with Secondary: Pets. You would use the Dominator's secondary sets as the Commander's primary powers and modify the pet set as a secondary into a (weak) support role. Why a weak support role? Because pet sets as they are grant you 6 pets. If they are focused on support, then you're effectively running around with 6 pocket kins (or other support type) to protect you. Bots MMs have their Protector Bots already running support, though they can only heal other bots. Mercs MMs have the medic soldier and demon MMs have their Gargoyles. And that is with the sets more focused on being the MMs attacks as is. 6 of those all focused on support, debuffing your foes or buffing and healing you? No, you wouldn't really find any challenges. So pets as a set would need a major overhaul to shift to a support role for the player without making the set ridiculously OP. Or just leave pets as is and forego the support role, but still leave them as the secondary set. After all, you want the player to take the lead, so the player's Assault set should be primary.

 

I'm not sure how to make the proposed AT work, I'm grasping at straws while trying to rationalize what would happen.

Edited January 23, 2022 by Rudra
Edited to add extra line in first wall of text.

[MTeague]

If you give the AT their own armor toggles... well then it's not Pets/Assault, it's Pets/Grab-Bag-of-Armor-And-Attacks.

 

Not at thing that I would use. 

That said, I don't have to want to use everything the devs add.

 

[Shazbotacus]

I mean, my idea was to have the armor toggles in the pets set instead of attacks. The attacks for the player go in the secondary offensive set.
This archetype couldn't be treated like a conventional Mastermind that we all know, it'd have to be something else and seen differently. The henchmen might progress in a different way, they might not use the same upgrade and tier scheme and formula at all, starting with a new AT gives us that freedom.

Edited January 24, 2022 by Shazbotacus

[Rudra]

No armor toggles. You have pets. Lots of pets. If you give the player armor toggles, pets (that are now support focused with CC and debuffs or buffs with heals) x6, and the Dominator's Assault sets, you have God Mode AT.

 

Pets as is with no armor toggles for the player, even if they only affect the player, while you use the Dominator's Assault sets still gives you an inordinate amount of firepower. You would be squishy, but lots of firepower. The proverbial glass cannon. If you swap pets to focus on support, you have 6 pets mezzing everything in your path. AVs and GMs wouldn't be a threat to you. Pets that focus on support as described with the player also getting armor toggles becomes... ridiculously powerful even before you get into enhancements and incarnate powers. I mean, more so than with 6 mezzers that always stay at your side keeping you safe.

 

If you want this AT to work, you realistically can't change the pets' focus to support any more than the sets already do and pets would need to be the secondary set. That is how the ATs work. The AT's primary focus is the primary power set and the support focus is the secondary. So if the focus is on the player doing the heavy lifting of combat with pets supporting, Assault would have to be primary and Pets would have to be secondary.

 

(And yes, you would also probably need to lose the pet upgrade powers.)

Edited January 24, 2022 by Rudra
Added 2 more paragraphs. ... and last line....

[Rudra]

Recommendation:

Primary: Dominator Assault (As is)

 

Secondary: Mastermind Pets:

T1: Heal

T2: T1 Pet (As is)

T3: Some mez

T4: Some ally buff (usable on just pets or pets and player, not sure)

T5: Some ally buff as above

T6: T2 pet (As is)

T7: I don't know... another mez?

T8: T3 pet (As is)

T9: Panic mode attack? First upgrade power.

 

Again, I have no idea how to make this AT work, but I'm at least trying to find a way that doesn't render every other AT in the game effectively moot.

Edited January 24, 2022 by Rudra

[Shazbotacus]

What do you mean? Dominator primary is control and secondary is assault. 
I don't see what's so unstoppable about what I proposed. What I got in mind is this: two main pet summons, one each, that provide mitigating debuffs or controls doesn't matter what and that can vary depending on the specific set. Two upgrades, one for each, to make those main pets better at what they do. One auxiliary pet summon that might call between 1 and 4 henchmen, depending on how much chaff that set should thematically summon, that provides supplementary, but not great, damage that has no associated upgrades. There's five powers. The remaining four powers are survivability for the player: mez protection, standard defense/resist/regen toggles, self heals, etc. There's your whole primary powerset.
The primary powerset exists to give you survivability, directly and indirectly, and the player commands their henchmen to attack targets depending on who they want locked down and who they want some extra damage done to as they try to defeat that target. 

The secondary powerset is Assault or Melee, maybe Blast but that makes less sense, and I honestly don't care which.

I don't expect the henchmen to wield the mass lockdown power of a full Controller, that would be insane. It doesn't have to be that way. Similarly, I don't expect the player themselves to have a great amount of survivability. I expect the combined effects of the armor and light CC/debuffs can provide a fair level of survivability given proper tuning. Same for damage when factored with the chaff henchmen chipping in.

For an example, picture this. A player with an adapted Mercenaries primary and Rifle Assault secondary. The player has two pets that use less-than-lethal munitions that debilitate a few foes, and the player has armor to take hits from the rest. The primary set also has a Rifleman chipping in some light damage alongside the player's own attacks. Or the player is a Necromancer, and has two undead sorcerers inflicting mostly Terrorize and -To Hit debuffs, allowing the player to select who's most dangerous and should be shut down first. The player attacks with, say, dark assault with four zombies chipping in damage alongside.

Edited January 24, 2022 by Shazbotacus

[Rudra]

You would turn the Dominator's secondary set of Assault into the Commander's primary set. Like how Corruptors and Defenders have the same power sets, except they swap which is primary and secondary.

 

And I've already explained why I think your AT as proposed with the clarifications you gave in your 2nd post is overpowered in my 3rd post on this topic.

[Shazbotacus]

I gave it an edit for clarification, sorry for the late fix.

[biostem]

If we're going with assault and pet sets, I'd do this:

 

Primary:  Assault (leave the power selection as-is).

Secondary: Pets (with the below changes):

Class passive ability: "Target designation" or "Designated target", which applies a short-lived, stacking damage resist and defense debuff to any enemy you attack with your primary powers.

 

1. Basic armor toggle

2. Tier-1 pet summon

3. Status protection toggle

4. First pet upgrade power

5. PBAoE aura toggle (with taunt aura and one or more of: debuff(s), self buffs, or some DoT component)

6. Tier-2 pet summon

7. Utility power (same as the original pet set)  *I was debating replacing this with some sort of special self & pet buff power

8. Tier-3 pet summon

9. Second pet upgrade power 

Edited January 24, 2022 by biostem

[Rudra]

8 minutes ago, Shazbotacus said:

I gave it an edit for clarification, sorry for the late fix.

Break down your suggested power set as biostem and I have done please. Makes it easier to understand what exactly you are asking for.

 

(And again, if the focus is on the player doing the heavy lifting of combat with the pets acting as support, then the Dominator secondary of Assault really should be your AT's primary set.)

Edited January 24, 2022 by Rudra
Edited to add final thought.

[Shazbotacus]

All right.

Primary:
1. Basic Armor Set Toggle

2. First Main Henchman (Debuff and/or CC focus)

3. Basic Armor Set Toggle

4. Upgrade for First Main Henchman (Ideally complements basic powers)

5. Status Protection for Player is advised here

6. Second Main Henchman (Debuff and/or CC focus)

7. Survivability Power, specific to associated armor theme, for Player

8. Auxiliary Henchmen (1-4 henchmen providing light damage in total)

9. Upgrade for Second Main Henchman (Ideally complements basic powers as well)

It'd be most likely that the CC available to main henchmen would be largely if not only single target in nature, and debuffs may be area effect and mostly if not entirely focused on reducing enemy offense. I'm not opposed to throwing in defense debuffs, for example.

Edit: I'm not opposed to the idea of switching primary to secondary and vice versa. That's sensible as well.

Edited January 24, 2022 by Shazbotacus

[Lazarillo]

14 minutes ago, biostem said:

If we're going with assault and pet sets, I'd do this:

 

Primary:  Assault (leave the power selection as-is).

Secondary: Pets (with the below changes):

Class passive ability: "Target designation" or "Designated target", which applies a short-lived, stacking damage resist and defense debuff to any enemy you attack with your primary powers.

 

1. Basic armor toggle

2. Tier-1 pet summon

3. Status protection toggle

4. First pet upgrade power

5. PBAoE aura toggle (with taunt aura and one or more of: debuff(s), self buffs, or some DoT component)

6. Tier-2 pet summon

7. Utility power (same as the original pet set)  *I was debating replacing this with some sort of special self & pet buff power

8. Tier-3 pet summon

9. Second pet upgrade power 

This is very close to an idea that I've had for a long time.  I like to call it the "Vanguard", though I suppose that name has certain connotations already in the game.

Primary Assault, Secondary Pets.  Pet set attacks are replaced by theme-appropriate defensive skills (Ninjas get stuff from Ninjutsu, Demons get Fiery Aura, etc), though I imagine it more as basic armor toggle, second armor toggle, mez protection.  Even your idea for an inherent is kind of similar to my own.  I expand it a little bit, though.

 

Vanguard Inherent: Tactical Flow - "A Vanguard is master of controlling the pace and intensity of a battle.  By focusing fire with unit, each member will do additional damage.  However, when the group splits up, they throw the battlefield into a controlled disarray, reducing enemy accuracy." In execution, basically, attacks from the PC and every pet a non-stacking accuracy debuff on whatever they attack (unstackable even from multiple sources, a la Bruising), but also a unique "tag"-type debuff (like Decelerated from Time Manipulation). And damage dealt is multiplied by the number of unique tag debuffs the target has.

[Rudra]

38 minutes ago, Shazbotacus said:

All right.

Primary:
1. Basic Armor Set Toggle

2. First Main Henchman (Debuff and/or CC focus)

3. Basic Armor Set Toggle

4. Upgrade for First Main Henchman (Ideally complements basic powers)

5. Status Protection for Player is advised here

6. Second Main Henchman (Debuff and/or CC focus)

7. Survivability Power, specific to associated armor theme, for Player

8. Auxiliary Henchmen (1-4 henchmen providing light damage in total)

9. Upgrade for Second Main Henchman (Ideally complements basic powers as well)

It'd be most likely that the CC available to main henchmen would be largely if not only single target in nature, and debuffs may be area effect and mostly if not entirely focused on reducing enemy offense. I'm not opposed to throwing in defense debuffs, for example.

Edit: I'm not opposed to the idea of switching primary to secondary and vice versa. That's sensible as well.

1) Please define basic armor toggle. S/L resist?

2) How many and what kind of debuff/CC?

3) Please define basic armor toggle.

5) No. Mez protection is a melee AT benefit for having to close with their targets. Outside of EATS, I am not aware of a ranged character having inherent mez protection. If I am wrong, I apologize.

6) How many and what kind of debuff/CC?

7) Survivability power is even more is even more generic than basic armor toggle. What kind?

 

Are the CCs slows? Holds? Stuns? Immobs? Also, what magnitude per pet? Debuffs to hit, damage, damage resist, defense? Please provide more specifics.

Edited January 24, 2022 by Rudra

[biostem]

10 minutes ago, Rudra said:

5) No. Mez protection is a melee AT benefit for having to close with their targets. Outside of EATS, I am not aware of a ranged character having inherent mez protection. If I am wrong, I apologize.

Do you consider the Sentinel an EAT?  No AT has "inherent" mez protection - all require taking a power.  If you mean that, then several defender/corruptor/controller/MM sets *do* include a power granting status protection, (FF, sonic, traps, etc)...

[Shazbotacus]

34 minutes ago, Rudra said:

1) Please define basic armor toggle. S/L resist?

2) How many and what kind of debuff/CC?

3) Please define basic armor toggle.

5) No. Mez protection is a melee AT benefit for having to close with their targets. Outside of EATS, I am not aware of a ranged character having inherent mez protection. If I am wrong, I apologize.

6) How many and what kind of debuff/CC?

7) Survivability power is even more is even more generic than basic armor toggle. What kind?

 

Are the CCs slows? Holds? Stuns? Immobs? Also, what magnitude per pet? Debuffs to hit, damage, damage resist, defense? Please provide more specifics.

1 & 3.) That really depends on the set. Ninjutsu has melee defense on one toggle and ranged and AoE defense on another. Electric Armor has S/L/E resists on one and E/Neg, something else, you know how armor sets are laid out.
2 & 6.) That also depends on the set, and it can be as varied as Mastermind henchmen are.

5.) Sentinels and Soldiers of Arachnos are ranged-capable archetypes with mez protection.
7.) Also depends on what armor set or theme we're taking from. Invulnerability might be Dull Pain for example.

Was I supposed to give an outline for a specific powerset as an example?

Edited January 24, 2022 by Shazbotacus

[Rudra]

Soldiers of Arachnos and Widows of Arachnos are EATs. Sentinels are hybrid tanks. The other mez protection powers are not toggles, and many cannot be used by the granting player.

 

(Actually, I don't think any of those other mez protection powers can be used by the player on themselves....)

Edited January 24, 2022 by Rudra

[biostem]

5 minutes ago, Rudra said:

The other mez protection powers are not toggles, and many cannot be used by the granting player.

 

Dispersion Bubble and Sonic Dispersion say hi.  Regardless, not every AT that gets an armor set has their status protection power as a toggle, either, (Super Reflexes and Ninjitsu, for example), so you can also include Farraday Cage and Forcefield Generator as well.

Edited January 24, 2022 by biostem

[Rudra]

8 minutes ago, Shazbotacus said:

1 & 3.) That really depends on the set. Ninjutsu has melee defense on one toggle and ranged and AoE defense on another. Electric Armor has S/L/E resists on one and E/Neg, something else, you know how armor sets are laid out.
2 & 6.) That also depends on the set, and it can be as varied as Mastermind henchmen are.

5.) Sentinels and Soldiers of Arachnos are ranged-capable archetypes with mez protection.
7.) Also depends on what armor set or theme we're taking from. Invulnerability might be Dull Pain for example.

Was I supposed to give an outline for a specific powerset as an example?

Ninjutsu? So you want... know what? Never mind. Please define more specfically as best you can what sort of defenses you see your new AT getting at those tiers.

[Rudra]

5 minutes ago, biostem said:

 

Dispersion Bubble and Sonic Dispersion say hi.  Regardless, not every AT that gets an armor set has their status protection power as a toggle, either, (Super Reflexes and Ninjitsu, for example), so you can also include Farraday Cage and Forcefield Generator as well.

As I said, if I am wrong, I apologize. I never used sonic or Farrady Cage. (Forcefield generator grants mez protection?! As often as I am held, slept, or stunned through it, that surprises me.)

Edited January 24, 2022 by Rudra
Edited to add last line.

[Shazbotacus]

An archetype has many powersets in primary and secondary categories, that's what I want to say. I would have to hash together a powerset to be more specific. I might be able to do that later.