Give all Tanker Primaries Knockback Resistance

[aethereal]

I thought it was around 70 too.  18 seems too low.

 

I will say, if your concern is specifically tanking MLTF as a tanker who doesn't have access to KB resistance, you can stock up on Escapes (the T3 breakfree inspiration).  Each one lasts 90 seconds and adds 10 to your KB protection.  You can eat 7 of them and have 70 + your normal KB protection for a minute and a half, then do it again for the next minute and a half with just your normal tray of insps at level 50 (ie, no email shenanigans).

 

IDK how far three minutes of immunity to Recluse's KB will take you, but it's something.  If you're an electric tanker with 15 KB Prot natively, you can probably do 3x6 for 4.5 minutes and tank his KB.

Edited February 11, 2022 by aethereal

[BrandX]

4 hours ago, Ston said:

 

You have to dedicate 12+ slots on Fiery Aura and Dark Armor to resist Lord Recluse's knockback on the MLTF. Rad Armor can make 2 mini-nukes with those slots and still have plenty of KB resist, resistance, absorb, regen, recovery, etc. to be an amazing tanker.  This is incredibly unbalanced and should definitely be changed. Aside from Lord Recluse, there are plenty of attacks in the game that will require more than a couple KB protection slots. These slots are very valuable on armor sets that already have glaring weaknesses.

 

Sure, Fiery Aura has Burn and Fiery Embrace... and Dark Armor has Cloak of Fear and Oppressive Gloom... but are these powers really tradeoffs for KB resistance when you consider the tools their competitors have? 

 

Burn.  Probably worth it.  Cloak of Fear and Oppressive Gloom?  Probably not.  😛

[arcane]

28 minutes ago, BrandX said:

 

Burn.  Probably worth it.  Cloak of Fear and Oppressive Gloom?  Probably not.  😛

Eh, they get Dark Regeneration. They’re fine.

[Mr Pierce]

2 hours ago, Ston said:

 

A Fiery Aura or Dark Armor tanker will need to dedicate 6+ slots to resist any of these attacks. There's a much longer list of attacks that can be resisted with 5+ slots. This is pretty substantial considering the value an extra slot can bring to a build., let alone 5-10. https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Knockback/Enemies_with_Knockback_Powers

I also think this list is wrong. If you look at MLTF LR's Suppression power details in game, it says 51.93KB. And after applying purple patch to a lvl 54 AV, that gets increased to around 70. Which makes it virtually impossible to resist solo without buffs/inspirations.

 

 

I can confirm this. I put 18 KB on my Dark tank once, just to see if Recluse could still knock me on my butt, and he did in fact do it. When I sent it in as a bug to the Devs, they came back with "we don't know why you're still getting knocked down..." So I guess that's why.

 

Also a lot of you guys don't understand the difference between KB Protection and KB Resist. Thankfully someone explained it in better detail than I ever could. (ie, KB procs don't fix the issue)

[Mr Pierce]

52 minutes ago, arcane said:

Eh, they get Dark Regeneration. They’re fine.

You can't use Dark Regen if you're on your butt. Also it won't hit Recluse unless his towers are down. Feels bad.

[PeregrineFalcon]

3 hours ago, MTeague said:

The only 'fix" I would want to see is better on-line documentation as you're choosing an armor set

 

"This powerset includes mtigation vs the following"

"This powerset has low-to-no mitigation vs"

I've never been happy with the weird way the detailed power descriptions are in game and with the fact that the wiki doesn't have actual numbers.

[arcane]

2 hours ago, Mr Pierce said:

You can't use Dark Regen if you're on your butt. Also it won't hit Recluse unless his towers are down. Feels bad.

I already said I don’t see why every armor set necessarily has to trivialize one of the hardest enemies in the game. Lord Recluse is the most extreme example possible here. Who cares if he’s hard to tank. He’s supposed to be. Pop Break Frees on that one fight if it’s so important.

Edited February 11, 2022 by arcane

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 hour ago, arcane said:

I already said I don’t see why every armor set necessarily has to trivialize one of the hardest enemies in the game. Lord Recluse is the most extreme example possible here. Who cares if he’s hard to tank. He’s supposed to be. Pop Break Frees on that one fight if it’s so important.

 

If I'm not allowed to judge regen by how bad it sucks in the ITF, then yea... judging anything by how well it can handle a 4-tower backed LR is stupid.

[Haijinx]

19 hours ago, arcane said:

Every set is carefully balanced. 

 

Hahahahahahahaha

[Marbing]

1 hour ago, Haijinx said:

 

Hahahahahahahaha

Not that arcane needs me to defend them but, they were referring to the act not the reality. Meaning when addressing the sets they attempt to keep things at a balance, obviously that doesn't always work out. If you read the entire post they were basically making reference to how there are more things to consider than just one aspect of a set before you make a change willy nilly. The devs are trying to maintain a relative balance, a pro/con to each set. Just FYI..

 

That being said I do feel like Fiery Aura lags a bit more behind the rest of the field in terms of survival. I am interested to see what they do to address this.

Edited February 11, 2022 by th0ughtGun

[Naraka]

17 hours ago, Ston said:

 

You have to dedicate 12+ slots on Fiery Aura and Dark Armor to resist Lord Recluse's knockback on the MLTF. Rad Armor can make 2 mini-nukes with those slots and still have plenty of KB resist, resistance, absorb, regen, recovery, etc. to be an amazing tanker.  This is incredibly unbalanced and should definitely be changed. 

 

You might just be right here. How would you change Radiation Armor to be more balanced?

[Ston]

3 hours ago, Naraka said:

 

You might just be right here. How would you change Radiation Armor to be more balanced?

 

I'm not sure I would be a fan of nerfing Radiation Armor as it's one of the most fun and popular sets. I would much rather have the lagging armor sets get improved to be more competitive.

 

I think PPM adjustments would be the most obvious balance fix to Radiation Armor since it currently has similar offensive firepower to Fiery Aura. Another issue is Rad Armor's weakness (cold dmg) is very rarely seen in the game which makes it feel stronger than Dark Armor & Electric Armor.

 

But in my opinion, most of the armor/defense sets are pretty strong out of the gate in terms of survivability (with KB resist) and even get some tools to boost recharge/damage. And then you have sets like Fiery Aura and Dark Armor that are weak to common damage types and debuffs (-def particularly) and on top of that... no KB resist.

[arcane]

1 minute ago, Ston said:

 

I'm not sure I would be a fan of nerfing Radiation Armor as it's one of the most fun and popular sets. I would much rather have the lagging armor sets get improved to be more competitive.

 

I think PPM adjustments would be the most obvious balance fix to Radiation Armor since it currently has similar offensive firepower to Fiery Aura. Another issue is Rad Armor's weakness (cold dmg) is very rarely seen in the game which makes it feel stronger than Dark Armor & Electric Armor.

 

But in my opinion, most of the armor/defense sets are pretty strong out of the gate in terms of survivability (with KB resist) and even get some tools to boost recharge/damage. And then you have sets like Fiery Aura and Dark Armor that are weak to common damage types and debuffs (-def particularly) and on top of that... no KB resist.

I’ve seen zero evidence Fire or Dark are hurting against anyone but Lord Recluse so far. And as I said Fire will be buffed as soon as the Burn bug is fixed.

 

You’ve definitely helped me come to realize that Rad Armor is overtuned though, but likely that will be fixed with PPM changes as you said.

Edited February 11, 2022 by arcane

[PeregrineFalcon]

4 hours ago, th0ughtGun said:

That being said I do feel like Fiery Aura lags a bit more behind the rest of the field in terms of survival. I am interested to see what they do to address this.

Wait, wait, wait. You think that the undisputed king of farming needs to be buffed? The powerset that has 8 times more players (according to Cipher's numbers here) than all of the other powersets combined. And you think that powerset needs to be buffed?

 

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 minute ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Wait, wait, wait. You think that the undisputed king of farming needs to be buffed? The powerset that has 8 times more players (according to Cipher's numbers here) than all of the other powersets combined. And you think that powerset needs to be buffed?

 

Any fix/nerf to burn and irradiated ground or any other power that allows procs to fire off more than their PPM should allow for will not come with associated buffs.

 

Any overall reduction to the efficacy of damage procs will not come with associated buffs.

[aethereal]

36 minutes ago, Ston said:

I think PPM adjustments would be the most obvious balance fix to Radiation Armor since it currently has similar offensive firepower to Fiery Aura.rly) and on top of that... no KB resist.

This seems not true to me.  Yes, Rad Armor has two proc-bomb-able AoE powers.  But Burn gets like triple-duty out of procs and has a base cooldown of 25 seconds as opposed to the 60 and 90 second cooldown of Rad Armor's PBAoE.  Fiery Aura also has a damage aura and fwiw fiery embrace.

 

What's the evidence that Rad Armor has similar offensive firepower to Fiery Aura?  We don't see Rad Armor on farmers, we don't see it getting particularly fast pylon times.

 

I think people are mixing up Rad Melee's high offensive potential through proccing Irradiated Ground with Rad Armor's offensive potential.

Edited February 11, 2022 by aethereal

[arcane]

15 minutes ago, aethereal said:

This seems not true to me.  Yes, Rad Armor has two proc-bomb-able AoE powers.  But Burn gets like triple-duty out of procs and has a base cooldown of 25 seconds as opposed to the 60 and 90 second cooldown of Rad Armor's PBAoE.  Fiery Aura also has a damage aura and fwiw fiery embrace.

 

What's the evidence that Rad Armor has similar offensive firepower to Fiery Aura?  We don't see Rad Armor on farmers, we don't see it getting particularly fast pylon times.

 

I think people are mixing up Rad Melee's high offensive potential through proccing Irradiated Ground with Rad Armor's offensive potential.

It’s not as high as Fire, but it’s pretty obscenely powerful for a much tougher set. I doubt my Rad/Savage/Fire tanker is all that much slower than your average fire brute. Radiation Therapy is insane.

[arcane]

29 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

Any fix/nerf to burn and irradiated ground or any other power that allows procs to fire off more than their PPM should allow for will not come with associated buffs.

 

Any overall reduction to the efficacy of damage procs will not come with associated buffs.

I thought they found the impact of the Burn bug to be so enormous that they admitted it would have to get a balance pass when they finally fix it.

[Marbing]

36 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Wait, wait, wait. You think that the undisputed king of farming needs to be buffed? The powerset that has 8 times more players (according to Cipher's numbers here) than all of the other powersets combined. And you think that powerset needs to be buffed?

As I said: "in terms of survival", so... yes. And you answered your own question as to why there are so many Fiery Aura toons (Farmers) so congratulations on that... anyways...

If  they intend to make a balance pass at Burn, as stated earlier by someone else, then my statement stands: In terms of survival Fiery Aura lags behind the other sets. It has a KB hole and a Psi hole. Other sets either have one or the other, not both. Right now Burn and its other offensive abilities somewhat make up for that. But if they nerf Burn the set will be lacking as a whole unless they do something else to help it out. 

[Haijinx]

4 hours ago, th0ughtGun said:

Not that arcane needs me to defend them but, they were referring to the act not the reality. Meaning when addressing the sets they attempt to keep things at a balance, obviously that doesn't always work out. If you read the entire post they were basically making reference to how there are more things to consider than just one aspect of a set before you make a change willy nilly. The devs are trying to maintain a relative balance, a pro/con to each set. Just FYI..

 

That being said I do feel like Fiery Aura lags a bit more behind the rest of the field in terms of survival. I am interested to see what they do to address this.

 

I didn't disagree with the post I snipped from in the larger sense.  Just that one statement made me laugh out loud.  

 

I know supposedly sets are supposedly balanced, but cmon.  They aren't.  

 

I was going to use an image like say this instead .. but I was on my phone at the time. 

 

 

As to better KB protection for "Offensive" tanker sets?  Sure why not?  Its kinda unfair for Fire especially since KB can interphere with trying to hit Healing Flames.  

[Haijinx]

51 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Wait, wait, wait. You think that the undisputed king of farming needs to be buffed? The powerset that has 8 times more players (according to Cipher's numbers here) than all of the other powersets combined. And you think that powerset needs to be buffed?

 

 

Who cares about farming?  One way or the other?

[Marbing]

3 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

I know supposedly sets are supposedly balanced, but cmon.  They aren't.  

Lol we all know they aren't, hence I think this whole thread and many others, haha

[Haijinx]

The big decider on crappy Knockback protection seems to be a Damage Aura.  

Sort of.  Stalker Ninja has no KB protect,  Maybe Caltrops count as a Damage Aura?  Scrapper Ninja doesn't get Caltrops.

 

Electric gets a 20% recharge+Damage Aura.  SR also gets 20% recharge.  Electric gets the unimpressive Grounded.  SR gets the amazing Practiced Brawler.   

 

Of course Stone gets Mudpots PLUS Rooted.  But maybe those are balanced by the fact its kind of gross?    

 

Fire of course has access to Damage Aura and Burn and Firey Embrace AND a Nuke.   Maybe that's why its doesn't even get a Grounded clone.   Seems like its ahead of Dark though.  

[Marbing]

8 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

The big decider on crappy Knockback protection seems to be a Damage Aura.  

Sort of.  Stalker Ninja has no KB protect,  Maybe Caltrops count as a Damage Aura?  Scrapper Ninja doesn't get Caltrops.

 

Electric gets a 20% recharge+Damage Aura.  SR also gets 20% recharge.  Electric gets the unimpressive Grounded.  SR gets the amazing Practiced Brawler.   

 

Of course Stone gets Mudpots PLUS Rooted.  But maybe those are balanced by the fact its kind of gross?    

 

Fire of course has access to Damage Aura and Burn and Firey Embrace AND a Nuke.   Maybe that's why its doesn't even get a Grounded clone.   Seems like its ahead of Dark though.  

Dark gets a damage aura and oppressive gloom and cloak of fear (and endurance issues 😂 lol)

 

But, seriously I think oppressive gloom is an amazing power, it’s super effective a locking down minions / leuts and thus decreasing incoming damage.  

Edited February 11, 2022 by th0ughtGun

[PeregrineFalcon]

2 minutes ago, Ston said:

Did you get so excited to use your stupid gif that you forgot we're talking about regular content and not AE?

I really wanted to use an animated GIF of The Count laughing, but I couldn't find one in the time that I had, so I had to just go with that one.

 

Also, no. I don't care about farming or the AE, and the AE isn't the only place that people play Fiery Aura. But the fact remains that Fiery Aura characters out number all of the characters by 8 to 1. That tells me that Fiery Aura does not need a buff.

 

Also, you're asking for a buff based on 1 enemy in the entire game. The one enemy that Fiery Aura has an issue with. Pick another tank for that 1 enemy.

 

 

There. Is that better, Ston?