Knives of Artemis Defeat Badge - Mythbuster

[Chrono-Bot]

I've suggested this in another thread ages ago but I want to make it its own thing:

 

From the bio of the enemy faction: 

 

The Knives of Artemis are one of the deadliest groups of mercenary combatants in the world. It is rumored that they number no more than 100, but no one is certain. Masters of stealth and reconnaissance, they are highly skilled with all weapons, but the crossbow is their signature.

 

My proposal is that for defeating 101, you gain the badge Mythbuster.

[MTeague]

"It is rumored that there are no more than 100 Knives of Artemis. If this is true, they've been cloned more times than a Cylon."

[aethereal]

They just escape from jail real fast.  Like, in the course of the same mission.

[Rudra]

Despite being a badger, I am opposed. We don't need badges for everything. As for the proposal itself?

 

1) A rumor is not a myth.

2) The group is not a mythological group nor does it contain any mythological entities.

3) Using the name of a deity or mythological entity for your group name does not link you to any myth or religious belief system that the name comes from.

 

Getting a Mythbuster badge for this group makes no sense. Maybe Field Investigator or something similar, but not Mythbuster.

 

Edit: In case it is not apparent, I am already upset at some of the badges we already have. Most of the newer badges feel like they were added for the sole purpose of more fodder with no basis. (Looking at you recipe and inspiration rejection badges.) Feel free to disagree. This is the nature of personal opinions.

Edited March 12, 2022 by Rudra

[Chrono-Bot]

2 hours ago, Rudra said:

 

3) Using the name of a deity or mythological entity for your group name does not link you to any myth or religious belief system that the name comes from.

 

I stand by it for the myth - their group offshoots turn into gorgons, banshees, etc, so there's definitely a deliberate meta myth attachment with them.

 

edit: by 'meta' I mean their progression in the game's story. Greek-god named group's story moves into greek monsters as they're subsumed into another group. Although I'm still pretty satisfied tying it just for the Artemis bit.

Edited March 12, 2022 by Chrono-Bot
clarified myself a bit

[Rudra]

I can see it for the Knives of Vengeance, since they are an offshoot of the Talons of Vengeance. (And the Talons of Vengeance were already stated in game as turning people into monsters, so the converted KoA turning into monstrous KoV makes sense. (Edit: See the late First Ward arcs, specifically from Master Midnight, about how the Talons of Vengeance turn people into followers of the Talons and then monsters.) The KoA however, are not linked to mythology in any way. The transformations into psuedo-mythological creatures in the KoV is a stated transformation done by the ToV, not because they were from the KoA.

 

Edit again: If you are going to ask why the KoV turned into monsters and not the CoV, remember that you take down the CoV as they start rallying to the ToV. When you encounter the KoV, they had been under the ToV's influence for an unspecified amount of time.

Edited March 12, 2022 by Rudra

[Vanden]

1 hour ago, Chrono-Bot said:

I stand by it for the myth - their group offshoots turn into gorgons, banshees, etc, so there's definitely a deliberate meta myth attachment with them.

 

You’re talking about a completely unrelated group that subsumed the Knives entirely to boost their ranks. The exact same thing would’ve happened if they’d gone after, say, the Carnies.

[Major_Decoy]

The thread in question, but the post with the badge requirements I liked.

 

 

I think the requirement for more than 100 in a single mission is important.

[Rudra]

4 minutes ago, Major_Decoy said:

The thread in question, but the post with the badge requirements I liked.

 

 

I think the requirement for more than 100 in a single mission is important.

Interesting read. So... Chrono-Bot's suggestion of Mythbuster, as provided in that thread, back in November did not take, so (s)he is trying again?

[Chrono-Bot]

No, I said up above that I thought I'd give it its own thread.

[Major_Decoy]

On 3/12/2022 at 1:49 PM, Rudra said:

Interesting read. So... Chrono-Bot's suggestion of Mythbuster, as provided in that thread, back in November did not take, so (s)he is trying again?

The nature of the forum means that there's bit of churn and not every idea gets seen. There's no harm in trying to bring fresh eyes to an idea. I think it's kind of uncharitable to say "it didn't take".

 

It's not a bad idea, even the name "Mythbuster" isn't bad. It's not that the Knives of Artemis are myths, but that what do you call a rumor that's been verified untrue? It wouldn't be entirely inaccurate to say "Today we're testing the myth that there are only 100 Knives of Artemis"

 

So yes, as someone who very much enjoyed the show Mythbusters, I entirely agree with Chrono-bot that it'd be fun to have a badge named Mythbuster, and I'm sure that there are some people who would like that badge name for character reasons, and people who would like knives of artemis defeat badges for lore reasons.

 

I just think that the requirement to defeat more than 100 in one mission is important.

[Rudra]

11 minutes ago, Major_Decoy said:

It's not that the Knives of Artemis are myths, but that what do you call a rumor that's been verified untrue?

False. I call a rumor that has been verified untrue "false". Or a lie if there was malicious intent behind it. And until it has been verified? I call it a rumor.

 

Edit: And what do I call the investigation of a rumor? An investigation.

Edited March 14, 2022 by Rudra

[Major_Decoy]

False is a descriptor. "This is a false"? No.

You could call it a fiction. Or a fallacy.  But myth works too.

Edited March 14, 2022 by Major_Decoy

[Rudra]

5 minutes ago, Major_Decoy said:

False is a descriptor. "This is a false"? No.

You could call it a fiction. Or a fallacy.  But myth works too.

"This is false."

 

Edit: Or "This rumor is false." if you prefer. Maybe "This rumor has been proven to be false." if you really want to dig into it.

Edit again: Or simply "False."

Edited March 14, 2022 by Rudra

[Major_Decoy]

1 minute ago, Rudra said:

"This is false."

Right, false is a descriptor. It is an adjective or an adverb, not a noun.

 

You don't call a rumor false. You describe it as being false. If you want false as a noun, you can go with Falsehood, lie, prevarication, etc.

[Rudra]

If you want to stick with nouns rather than what do I call a rumor that has been verified untrue? Then I still call it a rumor. Like you said, false is a descriptor. (It is also an answer.) That descriptor however, is applied to the word "rumor" which is implied in this sense. Or specified as per my examples. So that would change the title to Rumor Buster if you want to go that route. Because they are still not myths.

 

Myth:

1) a traditional or legendary story, usually concerning some being or hero or event, with or without a determinable basis of fact or a natural explanation, especially one that is concerned with deities or demigods and explains some practice, rite, or phenomenon of nature.

        (This part has already been discussed.)

2) stories or matter of this kind: realm of myth.

        (This part has also already been discussed.)

3) any invented story, idea, or concept: His account of the event is pure myth.

        (We know they're real. [In-game.] That rules this out.)

4) an imaginary or fictitious thing or person.

        (We know they're real. [In-game.] That also rules this out.)

5) an unproved or false collective belief that is used to justify a social institution.

       (This is the only argument that could work. Except they are not a collective belief nor are they used to justify any social institutions.)

 

Per their own bio, they are rumored to only number 100 at most. So you proved the rumor wrong. You successfully investigated and disproved the rumor. The rumor is false. Here's your "Rumor Investigator" or "Rumor Buster" badge.

[Major_Decoy]

46 minutes ago, Rudra said:

3) any invented story, idea, or concept: His account of the event is pure myth.

        (We know they're real. [In-game.] That rules this out.)

We know the knives of Artemis are real, we don't know how many of them there are because they refuse to reply to my census requests. The invented story is "There's only 100 of them"

 

"The rumor that there are only 100 of them is pure myth"

 

Edit: A lot of the "myths" that got tested on mythbusters could also be called rumors, honestly. It's just unsourced information. "I've heard you get better mileage by driving with the windows down than you'd get by using the air conditioner" "I've heard a kid ate pop rocks and coke and exploded" "I've heard that these people had a whole bunch of mirrors and used them to sink ships!"

Edited March 14, 2022 by Major_Decoy

[Rudra]

39 minutes ago, Major_Decoy said:

We know the knives of Artemis are real, we don't know how many of them there are because they refuse to reply to my census requests. The invented story is "There's only 100 of them"

 

"The rumor that there are only 100 of them is pure myth"

This statement is false. The rumor that there are only 100 of them is false, not a myth. The rumor is based on the perception that the KoA are a small group. This is due to the fact they prefer to keep a low profile since they are ostensibly a covert ops group. Neither Malta nor the KoA are out there telling anyone that the KoA number less than 100. They likely would prefer no one knew they even existed.

 

The fact those outside of Malta or the KoA who know the KoA exist are unsure of their size means they question the group's size. Hence, they are rumored to number no more than 100. That implies doubt. A reasoned guess that should hold true based on known data and perceptions but cannot be verified either way. (Hence, "they are rumored to number..." as opposed to "they are known to number..." or "they number....")

 

The example given: "any invented story, idea, or concept: His account of the event is pure myth.", shows intention. The account the unspecified individual in the example gave was invented, so it is myth. The rumor of the group's size is not an invented story, idea, or concept. It is a reasoned guess. Not the same thing.

 

Edit: There you go. New badge title: Guessing Bane.

Edited March 14, 2022 by Rudra

[Major_Decoy]

How do you even know it's false? I mean, yeah, you can get more than 100 in a mission, but the game also has two Penelopes Yin (Penelope Yins?) and three Ms. Liberties (at least until the Valentine's day event ends)

 

"Their numbers are estimated to be in the low hundreds" or "It is estimated that there are around 100 of them" or "We reckon them to have no more than" those are all terms you'd use if you're giving a reasoned guess.

 

"It is rumored" is the term when you've heard something, but you don't know the source of the information.

 

"It's rumored that there are only two copies of the recipe of the 11 secret herbs and spices"

 

His story that there are only two copies of the recipe of the 11 secret herbs and spices is pure myth.

[Rudra]

You are really trying to find a way to justify the word "myth" in here. Instead of going:

 

 

 

"I would like to suggest a new badge:

Mythbuster

No matter how deadly or unknown the myth, you stand ready to take it down. You have defeated 50 (or 100, or pick a number) Keres, the most dangerous and (edit: possibly) least known creatures of Greek mythology.

 

Defeat 50 (pick appropriate number) Keres.

 

Why Keres? Because I doubt anyone that did not dig into Greek mythology on their own would even know what a Ker was outside of the game. And as precedence, the family have 2 badges. One for Family in general, and one for Family bosses."

 

 

 

Nope. Instead you insist on twisting and re-defining words. In your example, "it's rumored that there are only two copies of the recipe of the 11 secret herbs and spices" is exactly that. A rumor. Now, in the follow up example "his story that there are only two copies of the recipe of the 11 secret herbs and spices" is an invention. The unspecified male in your example fabricated the story. So in THAT example, yes, it is a myth. Notice the difference between the two examples you give? In the first one you say, there is no attribution. It is an unknown. The statement would be circulated with a degree of doubt and cannot be declared an invented story, idea, or concept. It is a questioned statement that is being spread. In the second one, the statement is directly attributed to an individual that is implied by the example to be the originator of the invented story. A story that has no backing in data for its inception. So yes, that would meet the definition of a myth. Rumor: uncertain statement. Myth: Certain, but false, statement lacking foundation; an invention.

 

Now apply that to the KoA bio. It is a rumor, not a myth. There is implied evidence to back up the reasoned guess. The FBSA or other groups that have had interactions with the KoA, and are presumably the ones providing the bio information to the character, are basing their guess on the KoA's size based on what they know. It is not an invented story, idea, or concept. It is a reasoned guess. (Edit: Based on available data at the time, rather than a fabrication.)

 

Now, follow that up with the current data on the KoA: "When the Knives of Artemis were first encountered, it was suspected that they were a small group of only 70, or perhaps 100 individuals. Obviously their ranks have expanded since the Rikti War as more broken or disillusioned women were adopted into their ranks and hardened."

 

Again, the statement shows that the group's numbers were a reasoned guess, not an invented accounting. ... Also... it completely kills the reason for this discussion in the first place.

 

*sigh* I'm tired of arguing what words mean with someone who apparently is more interested in making a definition that does not apply work for something he wants rather than finding something else it actually works for. Especially since they are not "rumored to number 100". I'm done.

Edited March 14, 2022 by Rudra

[Major_Decoy]

4 hours ago, Rudra said:

You are really trying to find a way to justify the word "myth" in here.

Honestly, no. I like the idea of a Knives of Artemis badge and I'm in favor of at least one being added, but I'm not tied to any one particular name.

 

I just don't find your arguments against the word "myth" compelling. If you just read the wikipedia entry on Mythbusters

 

Quote

The show's original hosts, special effects experts Adam Savage and Jamie Hyneman, used elements of the scientific method to test the validity of rumors, myths, movie scenes, adages, Internet videos, and news stories.

 

I will admit, I had forgotten the background information on the Knives of Artemis from the webpage from when I read it more than a decade ago.

 

(edit: this is an aside and not fully connected to the conversation at hand, but it bothered me on reading)

The end of one paragraph and the beginning of the very next paragraph:

Quote

They are also rumored to act as elite assassins.

 

Although they most often work as the hardcore assassin wing of the Malta Group, they are an independent organization.

(end aside)

 

The "current data" on the Knives of Artemis does nothing to contradict "It is rumored that they number no more than 100, but no one is certain." because when you first encounter something, you don't have enough information to make an estimate. The FSBA and other groups now have an estimate that there are more than 100 members, but there's still a rumor around that there's less than 100. Someone invented that. Maybe they had a good estimate, we don't know, we don't know who the source is.

 

That being said, I also don't agree that the Knives of Artemis have any links to mythology aside from worshipping Athena (Apparently gods exist in City of Heroes, is it even really fair to call them myths?) And some Carnival of Vengeance bosses have wings, just like the Knives of Vengence, so clearly that aspect of monstrosity has nothing to with myths either.

 

So yes, while I feel that the term Mythbuster is not undeserved, it doesn't have any double meaning.

 

Now, if you absolutely needed it to combine the idea of "mythbusting" being both "checking the veracity of a statement" and "beating up a mythical being" so it would be a better pun, I can understand that argument.

 

There are possibly more appropriate usages of the badge "Mythbusters", but Chrono-Bots' suggestion is prefectly valid even if you don't care for it.

Edited March 14, 2022 by Major_Decoy

[TheZag]

Im pretty sure the team doesnt pull out a dictionary before they name a badge to be sure the badge name and definition match up.  Alot of the names do match up with the dictionary but plenty dont for a pun.

 

Knives are one of the more difficult enemy groups so a badge in there somewhere would be fine with me.  The name mythbuster is pretty good as well.  My only reason against the name would be to save it for somewhere even better.  But if there arent any plans for 'somewhere better' to exist,  then use it here.

[Rudra]

6 hours ago, Major_Decoy said:

I just don't find your arguments against the word "myth" compelling. If you just read the wikipedia entry on Mythbusters

 

I don't care what Mythbusters tests. I swear at or near the end of season 1, they declared there were not enough myths for them to check and so would check whatever they found and thought would be interesting. Your insistence on using a TV show as justification baffles me.

 

6 hours ago, Major_Decoy said:

The "current data" on the Knives of Artemis does nothing to contradict "It is rumored that they number no more than 100, but no one is certain." because when you first encounter something, you don't have enough information to make an estimate. The FSBA and other groups now have an estimate that there are more than 100 members, but there's still a rumor around that there's less than 100. Someone invented that. Maybe they had a good estimate, we don't know, we don't know who the source is.

If the report declares they are known to number more than 100, but the minions' info panel says they are rumored to number 100, I'm going with the report. "Myth" already busted.

 

You want a badge for the KoA? Then I recommend the names from the original thread @Chrono-Bot was responding to. Probably the Shinobi/Kunoichi one. You want a Mythbuster badge? Ask for one for a group or group sub-set that makes sense. I'm a badger too, but I'm *expletive deleted* tired of chasing badges that feel like they are just being thrown in for the sake of more badges. Yes, I wholly admit the inspiration reject and recipe reject badges are what put me in this mind set. Forgive my angry opinion, but those badges are pure, absolute, unadulterated, *expletives deleted*. For crying out loud, the Circle of Thorns have FIVE defeat badges.

 

6 hours ago, TheZag said:

Im pretty sure the team doesnt pull out a dictionary before they name a badge to be sure the badge name and definition match up.  Alot of the names do match up with the dictionary but plenty dont for a pun.

 

I'm certain no one pulls out a dictionary when they come up with badge titles. Just like apparently no one bothers checking lore, as in the root mythologies, when coming up with enemy groups like the Talons of Vengeance in this game. Some things however, are pretty obvious. Like what a myth is, for example. Or at least I thought it was until this discussion....

 

...

...

... And I said I was done, yet here I am still arguing. *throws hands up*

[Chrono-Bot]

4 hours ago, Krimson said:

Pretty sure you can fight more than 100 in a single x8 mission.

ha, yes. I've gotten a few defeat badges on my first mission against a group for other factions too. I'd go for a higher number but the bio *does* say 100 members.