Feedback & Suggestions: Improving the role of Confuse powers for Controllers

[Tath99]

Premise:  The deployment of Confuse powers in City of Heroes is a mixed bag.  Comparatively speaking, Confuse powers underperform compared to damage-dealing alternatives.  Why Confuse a foe when you can outright defeat them?  This is especially painful for the Mind Control set which feels old-school and unloved.  The game therefore might benefit from a careful examination of where Confuses (and Controllers?) could or should be, given changes to other archetypes.

 

Suggestions:

 

• Examine the game with an open mind - with the intent to shine a spotlight on Controllers & Confuses.
• Do not categorize Confuses as [psychic / non-psychic] by default.  Remove the concept of 'machine-resistance' to Confusion, as a concept.
• Examine the faction groups within COH / COV and consider the role Confuses are to play against them.
• Design and alter individual minions / lieutenants and Bosses so they bring a fun potency to the Confuse-caster (and team).
• Design and alter game-world assets turrets / bombs / mines / drones to be correctly controllable by Confuse powers.
• Alter the Confuse powers to grant an Accuracy or To hit buff to a confused foe equal or proportional to its (base) duration.
• Address perception issues for controlled enemies.  Controlled enemies with incorrect facing / back to other NPCs stand still.
• Alter the purple confuse effect to make it colour-customizable according the power cast.

 

Additional Thoughts:

 

Mind control, the idea of people and society being manipulated behind the scenes makes for a great plot-hook.  Some fun might be had in designing plot-lines, villains and events originating from the rise and fall of heroes and villains with Confuse powers... 

 

 

Edited April 5, 2022 by Tath99

[arcane]

“Confuse powers underperform” Funny but horribly wrong

[Ston]

I'm with Arcane on this one. Confuse is insanely powerful and I can't imagine it needing any buffs. Seeds of Confusion is basically a win-button. ST confuses can completely change the battlefield. Not to mention the contagious confusion proc.

 

1 hour ago, Tath99 said:

• Examine the faction groups within COH / COV and consider the role Confuses are to play against them.
• Design and alter individual minions / lieutenants and Bosses so they bring a fun potency to the Confuse-caster (and team).

 

I think this is already possible based on your strategy. For example, in the Positron Task Forces, it's a popular tactic to confuse the Spectral Daemon Lords or Ruin Mages so that their buffs/debuffs will benefit your team. 

 

1 hour ago, Tath99 said:

• Alter the Confuse powers to grant an Accuracy or To hit buff to a confused foe equal or proportional to its (base) duration.
• Address perception issues for controlled enemies.  Controlled enemies with incorrect facing / back to other NPCs stand still.

 

I'm curious about your justification for these points. If a target has been debuffed, I wouldn't expect them to be cured of those debuffs just because they've been confused. Now.. if you want to be able to buff a confused target after the fact, I think that would be a different point (and maybe something I would sign up for). 

 

1 hour ago, Tath99 said:

• Alter the purple confuse effect to make it colour-customizable according the power cast.

 

This I support 100%.

[TheZag]

Alter the confused enemies hitbox color so players can tell who is confused without looking for tiny purple (or potentially recolored if implimented) bubbles in the heat of battle.  Yellow hit boxes already exist,  use that.  Or use purple because purple = confuse.

 

I love to confuse some bad guys and im sure my friends would love to troll me by killing the confused targets first....i mean they would love to let them live till last if they could tell which ones they were.

[Luminara]

2 hours ago, Tath99 said:

Why Confuse a foe when you can outright defeat them?

 

Because you don't get five stacks of Accelerate Metabolism by defeating Rikti Guardians, you get them by Confusing them.

[SwitchFade]

Sorry, no vote. Confuse is very potent as is so the premise of your argument is unconvincing.

[Tath99]

13 hours ago, Ston said:

I'm curious about your justification for these points. If a target has been debuffed, I wouldn't expect them to be cured of those debuffs just because they've been confused. Now.. if you want to be able to buff a confused target after the fact, I think that would be a different point (and maybe something I would sign up for). 

 

 

This I support 100%.

 

I think we have a slight misunderstanding.  🙂

 

My suggestion to add an outright accuracy or to hit buff to Confused foes, is to address their actual combat effectiveness.  As you may be aware minions, lieutenants and bosses have a small number of attack powers.  They have a limited attack chain.  Confused foes have a habit of struggling to perceive a foe, hitting a foe with a ranged attack, running to deliver a melee attack, changing direction to attack another enemy and so on.  This is poor and inconsistent behaviour caused by threat response.  I am not seeking to overpower confused foes but suggesting it is worth considering buffing their effectiveness when they use their meagre attack chain. i.e. make their attacks have a little more upfront 'punch'.

 

A minion facing another minion has lousy accuracy.  A lieutenant vs a minion is somewhat improved, a boss is greater still.  Innate improvements to +hit or +accuracy and +perception to overcome the AI and threat obstacles of confused foes meandering about the battlefield might be beneficial.

 

 

Edited April 6, 2022 by Tath99

[Rudra]

1 hour ago, Tath99 said:

 

I think we have a slight misunderstanding.  🙂

 

My suggestion to add an outright accuracy or to hit buff to Confused foes, is to address their actual combat effectiveness.  As you may be aware minions, lieutenants and bosses have a small number of attack powers.  They have a limited attack chain.  Confused foes have a habit of struggling to perceive a foe, hitting a foe with a ranged attack, running to deliver a melee attack, changing direction to attack another enemy and so on.  This is poor and inconsistent behaviour caused by threat response.  I am not seeking to overpower confused foes but suggesting it is worth considering buffing their effectiveness when they use their meagre attack chain. i.e. make their attacks have a little more upfront 'punch'.

 

A minion facing another minion has lousy accuracy.  A lieutenant vs a minion is somewhat improved, a boss is greater still.  Innate improvements to +hit or +accuracy and +perception to overcome the AI and threat obstacles of confused foes meandering about the battlefield might be beneficial.

 

 

They are already confused and attacking each other. Just because they are not hitting each other as often as you like does not mean they need an accuracy or to hit buff. Especially since the more damage they do to each other, the less xp/inf' you get from them. And if they are meandering? That is still a valid confusion act. Though I have never personally witnessed a confused enemy just meander around. Keep changing targets between former allies? Yes. Just wander around like an idiot? I wish. The only time I see enemies just meandering, is when they are stunned/disoriented.

 

Edit: I should clarify my comment. Confused enemies exhibiting poor and inconsistent behavior makes sense, seeing as they are confused. A confused person does not really know what they are doing. In the game mechanics, confusion causes a target shift between friend and foe. And lacking a high aggro former friend to draw their attention, confused mobs will split their attacks randomly between targets. Just as MM pets do when there is no target with a higher aggro level than other possible targets. I am not aware of confused mobs suffering any accuracy or to hit debuffs for being confused, so why should being confused buff them?

 

The way I read your suggestion, is you want confused mobs to exhibit better control than player uncontrolled pets, and enjoy better accuracy/to hit just for being confused. (And I say uncontrolled, because MMs can give orders to their pets to overcome the random aggro.) Your suggestion makes no sense.

 

Edit again: And before any argument that confused mobs should not be compared to pets is made, they are pets. They are underling to boss level temporary pets that the controller/dominator can use. And attack. And just like the fire imps or jack frost, they attack whatever they feel like within their aggro range. Using their own accuracy and to hit because they are temporary pets.

Edited April 6, 2022 by Rudra

[Luminara]

3 hours ago, Tath99 said:

My suggestion to add an outright accuracy or to hit buff to Confused foes, is to address their actual combat effectiveness.

 

Damage dealt to critters by any non-player source, including Confused foes, reduces XP which could be gained from those critters.  That XP loss caused by Confused foes is currently minimal, because of the lower hit chance which critters have, and over time, players see a net XP gain from using Confuses, due to the buffs from Confused critters, critters using their most dangerous controls/debuffs or devastating attacks on their allies, players not needing to buff/rebuff/recover since the enemies aren't attacking them, and other relevant related mechanical interactions.

 

We don't want them to hit more frequently, we don't want to turn them into raging combat gods, we don't want them to be efficient in defeating their buddies, we don't want to actualize the perceived XP loss by making it a real XP loss over time (as well as loss of potential drops).  We want our Confused enemies flailing aimlessly, impotent and harmless, while we harvest their buffs and rake in the XP and drops at a more rapid pace.

 

Confuses were specifically designed and balanced to function this way, and they're both very effective and very well balanced as they are now.  Adding your buffs to Confuses would not make them better, it would make them the most avoided and hated powers in the game, unless and until multiple systems and mechanics were revised or redesigned to account for that change, because the end result, without those additional changes, would be depriving players of drops and XP.  Solo, that would put such a dent in progression speed as to make nigh impossible to level at a reasonable pace while using Confuse powers.  Teamed... well, try using your +ToHit-on-critter Seeds or Mass and see what your teammates do to you after you've reduced their drops and XP to zilch over and over again.

 

Confused critters are not combat pets.  If you want a combat pet, summon one.

[Carnifax]

1 hour ago, Luminara said:

That XP loss caused by Confused foes is currently minimal, because of the lower hit chance which critters have, and over time, players see a net XP gain from using Confuses, due to the buffs from Confused critters, critters using their most dangerous controls/debuffs or devastating attacks on their allies, players not needing to buff/rebuff/recover since the enemies aren't attacking them, and other relevant related mechanical interactions.

Pretty sure the main reason is that the XP lost isn't based on just the damage they did vs the team doing. It's heavily weighted towards the players. In other words if you do 50% damage to an enemy and a confused mob does 50% you still end up with most of the XP. (vague rememberings say 80% but that could just be echos)

 

I mean my Plant/Stormie happily floors their Def using Freezing Rain and Tornado. But that XP mechanic means I'm not penalizing myself because of it. 

 

Edit : In other words I agree with Confuse not needing a buff (Fear does though for Controllers) but not exactly with your reasoning because there's already some XP/Inf weighting mechasnism which was added ages ago (issue 6 or 7 or something when "Your confuse is robbing our XP" was indeed a thing). 

 

Edit 2 : I always thought it was interesting how they only have one "Confuse" effect and really it's more of a "I've dominated you" rather than true confusion. I mean Arctic Air specifically is basically "You're in a thick fog and can't tell friend from foe". If I was doing "confuse" nowadays I'd make it "you attack whomever regardless of if they're a player or not" and give it to Seeds, Synapic Overload and Arctic Air to better fit their description (Synaptic & Arctic would need some other buffs mind) and leave the single target "confuses" as they work now (with a new name for the mez effect like Dominated or Mind Controlled) along with Mass Confusion (again rename it to something less, erm, confusing). 

Edited April 6, 2022 by Carnifax

[arcane]

7 hours ago, Tath99 said:

 

I think we have a slight misunderstanding.  🙂

 

My suggestion to add an outright accuracy or to hit buff to Confused foes, is to address their actual combat effectiveness.  As you may be aware minions, lieutenants and bosses have a small number of attack powers.  They have a limited attack chain.  Confused foes have a habit of struggling to perceive a foe, hitting a foe with a ranged attack, running to deliver a melee attack, changing direction to attack another enemy and so on.  This is poor and inconsistent behaviour caused by threat response.  I am not seeking to overpower confused foes but suggesting it is worth considering buffing their effectiveness when they use their meagre attack chain. i.e. make their attacks have a little more upfront 'punch'.

 

A minion facing another minion has lousy accuracy.  A lieutenant vs a minion is somewhat improved, a boss is greater still.  Innate improvements to +hit or +accuracy and +perception to overcome the AI and threat obstacles of confused foes meandering about the battlefield might be beneficial.

 

 

The only change to confuse that makes any sense with how much it overperforms is nerfing Seeds of Confusion with a cooldown increase. Buffing confuse is a downright wacky idea. The premise of your thread is simply 100% false.

 

A “buff confuse thread” should be taken as seriously as “buff Phantom  Army” or “Fulcrum Shift needs help” etc.

Edited April 6, 2022 by arcane

[Luminara]

42 minutes ago, Carnifax said:

Pretty sure the main reason is that the XP lost isn't based on just the damage they did vs the team doing. It's heavily weighted towards the players. In other words if you do 50% damage to an enemy and a confused mob does 50% you still end up with most of the XP. (vague rememberings say 80% but that could just be echos)

 

The game recalculates the XP based on a different maximum HP total when Confused critters deal damage.  When XP is factored, 3/4ths of the damage dealt by the Confused critter is treated as nonexistent.  If that damaged foe originally had 400 HP and your Confused critter dealt 200 damage, the game would ignore 150 of the damaged critter's HP, treat it as though it were never there, like the damaged critter only had 250 HP when it spawned.  The remaining 1/4th of the damage your Confused critter deals is counted against the total XP possible for that damaged critter.  In the same example, that would account for 50 damage.  When you deal the remaining 200 damage, the game calculates XP as if the damaged critter originally had 250 HP, and you would gain 80% of the maximum possible XP because you accounted for 80% of the damage (200/250) while your Confused critter accounted for 20% (50/250).

 

You will still receive 0 XP or drops if a Confused critter defeats another critter without you dealing any damage.

 

55 minutes ago, Carnifax said:

there's already some XP/Inf weighting mechasnism which was added ages ago (issue 6 or 7 or something when "Your confuse is robbing our XP" was indeed a thing).

 

It always worked this way.  You can check the patch note archives, there were no changes to Confuse's XP distribution at any point in the game's history.  It just wasn't understood until some players who were fed up with the "STOP STEALING MY EX PEAS WITH UR CONFUSE!" bitching (C-Force in particular), took the time to measure exactly how much XP was being gained and lost and posted the results with all of the extrapolated math behind it.  That explanation and accompanying math was posted around the same time Issue 6 was released, though, so that may be why you remember that specific period.

[Carnifax]

Thanks Luminara. I wasn't entirely mad and there was the i6 Confuse Jihad. 

 

So now can we hijack this into a "Fear should cause Containment" thread?

[Naraka]

10 hours ago, Tath99 said:

 

I think we have a slight misunderstanding.  🙂

 

My suggestion to add an outright accuracy or to hit buff to Confused foes, is to address their actual combat effectiveness.  As you may be aware minions, lieutenants and bosses have a small number of attack powers.  They have a limited attack chain.  Confused foes have a habit of struggling to perceive a foe, hitting a foe with a ranged attack, running to deliver a melee attack, changing direction to attack another enemy and so on.  This is poor and inconsistent behaviour caused by threat response.  I am not seeking to overpower confused foes but suggesting it is worth considering buffing their effectiveness when they use their meagre attack chain. i.e. make their attacks have a little more upfront 'punch'.

 

A minion facing another minion has lousy accuracy.  A lieutenant vs a minion is somewhat improved, a boss is greater still.  Innate improvements to +hit or +accuracy and +perception to overcome the AI and threat obstacles of confused foes meandering about the battlefield might be beneficial.

 

 

Defense debuffs are your friends.

 

If you want your confused enemies to hit each other more easily, does it make more since for the game to just give you that functionality? Or would it be better if you *built* your character to do that? 

 

Controllers have access to easy -def in sets like Rad, trick arrow, or even in the control set itself (plant had a decent slathering of -def). Dominator had access to secondaries with -def as well.

[Marbing]

Confuse is fine and already has a multitude of uses that a lot of players don't even realize:

1) Confuse the FF Generators (or those that summon them) from Skyraiders or Malta and your TEAM gets the benefit of the FF not the Skyraiders or Malta.

2) Confuse the Cairn, Swam Fungi, and Quartz (or those that summon them) from Devouring Earth and your TEAM gets the benefit not the Devouring Earth.

3) Confuse Carnies and they endurance drain their allies instead of you when they die.

4) Confuse a Master Illusionist and her pets attack her allies, not your team.

5) Confuse speeds up clear times!

6) etc

7) etc

 

So, yeah... confuse is fine.