Always the last one you try (psi-melee praise)

[Solarverse]

4 hours ago, Naraka said:

 

Sure, that's your opinion.

 

Oh, and opinions can, indeed, be wrong.

Yup, but not this time.

[Naraka]

3 hours ago, Solarverse said:

Point me at that sapper and I will scream it in his/her face!  😛  Haha

Don't take too long, you won't have any END left to do much of anything.

[InvaderStych]

10 hours ago, Without_Pause said:

Tell a Sapper it is useless.

 

More fun to "tell" them about being insta-jibbed with GPB. 😉

 

-------------------------------

 

Made my thoughts and feelings on Psi Melee abundantly clear in many threads, and as my beloved Psi/SD scrappy approaches triple digit Vet levels none of that has changed.

 

TLDR Version:

 

Mob Resistance to Psi is a "Spreadsheet Argument" that doesn't impact game play remotely as much as the forums would have one believe, and when discussed the other side of the coin is never mentioned: cutting through Unstoppable, BP "Spirit Of" bosses being weak against it (among many other annoying mobs as well), and being able to swat down a Brickernaut while it is doing the Golden Countdown of Death (Psi damage is the only damage they take in this state) are all completely forgotten because "OMG! Council Robots Take Half Psi Damage!!!!" ... as if Council Bots are a threat.

 

Do some mobs resist Psi? Yes. Does it matter? No.

 

Boggle has the same purpose as Confront - a power to skip in favor of build flexibility.  Until it is either an AoE like the new version of Touch of Fear or until it becomes an auto-hit toggle AoE that applies Boggled status and ditches the Confuse for generous amounts of -rech it will remain so.  Boggle is the one cottage that really needs to be burned down and rebuilt from scratch.  There *might* be a case for a Confuse on a Stalker.  On every other melee class it is a waste of time.

 

ML and GPB could stand to have their activation times shaved, and the damage scale reduction done to GPB sometime around Page 1 (or was it earlier?) should be reviewed as the reduction was quite massive and possibly overdone.

 

The set cannot be either "All Fists" or "All Blades" because the Fists are Smashing/Psi while the Blades are Lethal/Psi, and mixing in the more common damage types helps against various mobs that resist Psi.  Smashing is good on bots and Lethal is good on Zombies.  Recall, also, that ML is *all* Smashing.

 

Finally, the damage delay on ML is too damn long. I don't mind the delay as that means ML can benefit from its own -Res proc, but the delay is too long.

 

Edit: None of that was intended to sound as argumentative or potentially antagonistic as it may have sounded.  Just sort of throwing out a quick post on the thread.  Apologies if tone was off-putting.

 

 

Edited April 16, 2022 by InvaderStych
author's note

[Naraka]

2 hours ago, InvaderStych said:

 

Boggle has the same purpose as Confront - a power to skip in favor of build flexibility.  Until it is either an AoE like the new version of Touch of Fear or until it becomes an auto-hit toggle AoE that applies Boggled status and ditches the Confuse for generous amounts of -rech it will remain so.  Boggle is the one cottage that really needs to be burned down and rebuilt from scratch.  There *might* be a case for a Confuse on a Stalker.  On every other melee class it is a waste of time.

 

 

 

If Boggle was an AoE confuse, it'd be overpowered (it recharges super fast). If it's an AoE -rech, then it's useless because you already have AoE -rech in Psy Sweep *and* there wouldn't be anything to slot for since -rech isn't an enhancable effect.

 

But I still don't understand this perspective.  Sure, you can skip it if it's not your flavor but to replace a perfectly usable effect for something completely useless is just beyond me.  Unless you have a super-elite build that practically ignores all outside influences like buffs, debuffs or controls, you are going to want to avoid certain strong effects like Mask of Vitiation (sp?) from Carnies or powerful -END debuffs from Sappers or auto-hit debuffs like Earthquake, Darkest Night and such from various foes or just cheating shit from Vanguard (wasn't it like -50 Max END?). If not debuffs, getting a free force field generator or Accelerate Metabolism or Fortitude while solo from a confused foe is a benefit that rewards a player that pays attention to what enemies do. It's fine if that isn't your thing or you don't care because your build is amazing without such effects, but to attempt to take away an option that reward a competent player for no reason is just crazy.

 

Also, *might* be a case on Stalker? Uh, Boggle doesn't break Hide and stacks. You can confuse 1 boss and AS another.  Waste of time? I'm sorry, I forgot we were on a finite time line as our lives tick away...by playing a game we can easily bypass every possible time limitation by just rolling the character on the beta server to attain whatever level, influence or build we desire instantly lol. Okay...

 

Sounds like another Boggle thread is needed lol

Edited April 16, 2022 by Naraka

[InvaderStych]

*sigh*

 

Even when I explicitly state that I'm not trying to step on toes, someone's foot is right there anyway getting stepped upon. 😛

 

9 hours ago, Naraka said:

If Boggle was an AoE confuse, it'd be overpowered (it recharges super fast). If it's an AoE -rech, then it's useless because you already have AoE -rech in Psy Sweep *and* there wouldn't be anything to slot for since -rech isn't an enhancable effect.

 

Yup. Which is why I referenced the new version of Touch of Fear.  The Fear and -To-Hit are single target, and an AoE damage (something PM could use more of) component was added:

 

Now a melee targeted AoE with a 10 target cap (16 for Tankers)
Now deals negative energy damage over time

Fear duration reduced by roughly 50%
Cast time increased from 1.17s to 1.97s
Only the main target will be affected by the Fear and ToHit debuff
Now accepts Melee AoE Damage sets

 

The -rech in PBS and the rest of the attacks is already near as makes no difference to useless.  Boggle's most important effect for me is the Boggled Status, not the Confuse.  Stripping it of confuse and leaning into Boggled/-rech in an AoE toggle gives the remainder of the attacks a persistent debuff upon which to stack their mild debuff.  It was just an alternate idea to resolve one of the other primary complaints regarding PM: the unpredictability of Insight. Theory-crafting, nothing more, nothing less.

 

It's fine if that isn't your thing or you don't care because your build is amazing without such effects, but to attempt to take away an option that reward a competent player for no reason is just crazy.

 

*sigh*  Nothing in my post was aimed at player "competence."  For my scrapper, even stacking Boggle against Blinding Powder did not achieve the desired affect you describe to my satisfaction.  For every mob listed it is/was more effective and more fun for me to just put an end to them first and then move on to the rest. I genuinely gave the power a chance by building around it the first time I ventured into PM and the result was not in line with my expectations.

 

And yes, Vanguard's Curse is -50% End. Sorcerers and Wizards (though I think only one of those gets the curse) always die first, and my toons always carry Nectanobo's (sp?) when doing Gaussian's arc. There might be a Redside arc where one faces Vanguard, that I don't recall one is certainly not indicative.  Outside Gaussian's though the only place I can confidently recall that we face off against Vanguard is in the ASF Ripple and I've yet to see any use of The Curse in those encounters.

 

Also, *might* be a case on Stalker? Uh, Boggle doesn't break Hide and stacks. You can confuse 1 boss and AS another.

 

Yes. This is obvious.  It is also obvious that I cannot personally make a case for something I have never built.  I tried this route with a Scrapper and it didn't work out for me, but I acknowledge that it might work better on a Stalker.

 

I have repeatedly stated that any change to Boggle needs to take Stalkers into account - even giving it the ToF treatment referenced above would be problematic for the Stalker version.

 

Waste of time?

 

Yup. As in a waste of Activation Time.  A waste of Endurance.  As in it breaks my "Flow State."

 

It's not about time in real life, it is about flow in the moment.  I don't want to spend my time re-applying a confuse when I could just put an end to the mob and move on.  Why would a Tanker on a team spend their time with a single target confuse? Or a Brute?  Maybe it's because I play melee as though the only soundtrack is the Amon Amarth discography, but I just don't see the use case anywhere but for Stalkers.

 

Having said all that, Brickernauts in ASF may be a singular use case for Confuse, as they should be vulnerable to it during their countdown, just as they are vulnerable to Psi damage. I am certain on the latter, but don't recall at the moment exactly where the former landed among the various bits of tuning given to the Golden Countdown of Death during beta.

 

Leveraging the Hold in GPB is/was much smoother and more useful to me than attempting to leverage the Confuse. Can your stalker Confuse an AV? (genuine question) If so that might be worth doing a repeat of the set and trying PM with a Stalker.

 

You like the Confuse.  Great.  I prefer targeting macros and combat teleport.  Boggle could stay forever as it is and that would be fine with me.  Something to skip is always useful in its own way.  Like Confront.  It is possible that even if the ToF re-vamp was applied to Boggle I would still end up skipping it.  Cannot say without giving it a try.

 

Heck, leave it as a ST confuse for Stalkers and buff it up while giving the remainder of melee the New Touch Of Fear-esque version of Boggle.

 

Sounds like another Boggle thread is needed lol

 

Nah. Replacement already started a great one over in guides.  Better to chime in on that one with your recommended tactics, seeing as it is a guide thread and all.

 

But we're getting away from the point of this thread: Psi Melee is much better than its reputation and I am reasonably confident that is something upon which we both agree.

 

🍻

 

EDIT: Only going to make one attempt to fix the formatting that gets messed up in some interaction between my browser and this forum where everything entered after closing the first quote tag still ends up listed in one big long quote.  I dunno why it does this, and canna be bothered to attempt more than one edit this morning.  Sorry, not sorry. 😛 Changed what I think was the offending quote to code instead.  Hopefully this works.

 

 

 

Edited April 16, 2022 by InvaderStych
#$%^ing FireFox and Quote Tags in This Editor Again

[Solarverse]

14 hours ago, Naraka said:

Don't take too long, you won't have any END left to do much of anything.

Honestly, I don't find Sappers to be an issue. They get taken out first and I don't worry about it. Carnies are a different story since they all sap upon death.

[Lazarillo]

41 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

Carnies are a different story since they all sap upon death.

In fairness, Carnies have enough Psi-specific defense that you won't have to worry about them dying too fast on a Psi Melee character anyway.

[Naraka]

1 hour ago, Solarverse said:

Honestly, I don't find Sappers to be an issue. They get taken out first and I don't worry about it. Carnies are a different story since they all sap upon death.

Killing them first is worrying about it lol

[Naraka]

3 hours ago, InvaderStych said:

*sigh*

 

Even when I explicitly state that I'm not trying to step on toes, someone's foot is right there anyway getting stepped upon. 😛

 

 

Yup. Which is why I referenced the new version of Touch of Fear.  The Fear and -To-Hit are single target, and an AoE damage (something PM could use more of) component was added:

 

 

 

Psi Melee aside here, I do not like the changes they made to Dark Melee (despise may be too strong a word) primarily because they keep pushing everything to be standardized in AoE effects and homogenizing the set usage.  What they did to Touch of Fear and Shadow Maul is why I don't play Dark Melee anymore and luckily I wasn't all that acquainted with Energy Melee before they changed it too.

 

All in all, this would be a whole other argument about power creep that I'm sure you probably don't want to get into, but back to Psi Melee: no, everything doesn't need to be AoE. Stop chasing metas. There's plenty of powers out there for that.

 

3 hours ago, InvaderStych said:

 

The -rech in PBS and the rest of the attacks is already near as makes no difference to useless.  Boggle's most important effect for me is the Boggled Status, not the Confuse.  Stripping it of confuse and leaning into Boggled/-rech in an AoE toggle gives the remainder of the attacks a persistent debuff upon which to stack their mild debuff.  It was just an alternate idea to resolve one of the other primary complaints regarding PM: the unpredictability of Insight. Theory-crafting, nothing more, nothing less.

 

 

 

It doesn't, tho. Insight will still be, mostly, unpredictable...it'll just be less unpredictable if you had Boggle status on multiple targets you hit with it.  If we're trying to resolve that, you'd probably want to lean into builder-spender mechanics instead of putting in more AoEs to slot procs into.

 

But that does outline a precedence here in that, with unpredictable insight, the set is good therefore it doesn't really need or rely on Insight to do its job...further still, the unique aspect of Stalker's Insight is that it actually is predictable (Boggle + AS is 100% insight) but that still doesn't change the point that you don't want to use that avenue. It just makes me believe that the main reason for your proposition is to get more AoE effects.

 

3 hours ago, InvaderStych said:

 

*sigh*  Nothing in my post was aimed at player "competence."  For my scrapper, even stacking Boggle against Blinding Powder did not achieve the desired affect you describe to my satisfaction.  For every mob listed it is/was more effective and more fun for me to just put an end to them first and then move on to the rest. I genuinely gave the power a chance by building around it the first time I ventured into PM and the result was not in line with my expectations.

 

And yes, Vanguard's Curse is -50% End. Sorcerers and Wizards (though I think only one of those gets the curse) always die first, and my toons always carry Nectanobo's (sp?) when doing Gaussian's arc. There might be a Redside arc where one faces Vanguard, that I don't recall one is certainly not indicative.  Outside Gaussian's though the only place I can confidently recall that we face off against Vanguard is in the ASF Ripple and I've yet to see any use of The Curse in those encounters.

 

 

 

 

Oy...

 

You don't have to build around Boggle.  You don't have to make any special considerations or tactics for it. You don't even have to use it.  It's merely a tool (one that is *RARE* on a melee AT). The power could be sitting on your bar not being used for several whole missions and it'd can pay its rent plenty by just being able to use it that once to screw over the enemy or get you some free buffs because the power practically needs no slotting...just Accuracy.

 

Like I said, I'm fine with a power-player meta-gamer not wanting to waste the picks or activation using it because they just snap their fingers and problems disappear. But not every build is like that and not everyone finds those types of builds fun.

 

3 hours ago, InvaderStych said:

 

Yup. As in a waste of Activation Time.  A waste of Endurance.  As in it breaks my "Flow State."

 

It's not about time in real life, it is about flow in the moment.  I don't want to spend my time re-applying a confuse when I could just put an end to the mob and move on.  Why would a Tanker on a team spend their time with a single target confuse? Or a Brute?  Maybe it's because I play melee as though the only soundtrack is the Amon Amarth discography, but I just don't see the use case anywhere but for Stalkers.

 

Having said all that, Brickernauts in ASF may be a singular use case for Confuse, as they should be vulnerable to it during their countdown, just as they are vulnerable to Psi damage. I am certain on the latter, but don't recall at the moment exactly where the former landed among the various bits of tuning given to the Golden Countdown of Death during beta.

 

Leveraging the Hold in GPB is/was much smoother and more useful to me than attempting to leverage the Confuse. Can your stalker Confuse an AV? (genuine question) If so that might be worth doing a repeat of the set and trying PM with a Stalker.

 

You like the Confuse.  Great.  I prefer targeting macros and combat teleport.  Boggle could stay forever as it is and that would be fine with me.  Something to skip is always useful in its own way.  Like Confront.  It is possible that even if the ToF re-vamp was applied to Boggle I would still end up skipping it.  Cannot say without giving it a try.

 

Heck, leave it as a ST confuse for Stalkers and buff it up while giving the remainder of melee the New Touch Of Fear-esque version of Boggle.

 

 

Yup, we practically play different games then.

 

And I don't say that because of how you explained your position but rather the complete misunderstanding of any other typical playstyle seems to escape you.

 

I'll just say, no, you don't need to reapply Boggle...only when you want to get Insight (or the effect of the confuse), would you need to do that. Since there is a lockout period on Insight, you're not pushing to get that and frankly, it's unnecessary. The insight chance is mostly just a bonus. You can also leverage the hold in Greater Psi Blade + the confuse in Boggle to neutralize more targets at once. You might be able to confuse AVs that are vulnerable to confuse, but you'd need to slot out Boggle and maybe have some other powers to stack with it.

 

Whether or not Boggle gets changed is, obviously, not my call but I think you didn't make a compelling point to have it changed. But who am I to judge with all the other sets on the road to power creep AoE-meta saturation coming down like a firehose. 

[InvaderStych]

55 minutes ago, Naraka said:

Like I said, I'm fine with a power-player meta-gamer not wanting to waste the picks or activation using it because they just snap their fingers and problems disappear. But not every build is like that and not everyone finds those types of builds fun.

 

55 minutes ago, Naraka said:

And I don't say that because of how you explained your position but rather the complete misunderstanding of any other typical playstyle seems to escape you.

 

Cool Story.  It is abundantly clear you have made value judgements here about me as a player, while I fully endorse your desire to play the game your own way.

 

Thus no need for us to discuss further.

 

🍻

[Naraka]

2 minutes ago, InvaderStych said:

 

 

Cool Story.  It is abundantly clear you have made value judgements here about me as a player, while I fully endorse your desire to play the game your own way.

 

Thus no need for us to discuss further.

 

🍻

 

Sure.

 

It's freedom of speech to make and express those value judgements (whatever that means) so long as it's in a civil manner and doesn't break the moderation rules. If I'm wrong on those assessments then say your piece. I'm not here to misattribute value judgements, I'm here to express my perspective on a subject.

[oedipus_tex]

As a Controller and Dominator heavy player, it's interesting to read perspectives on Boggle. It's the melee power that sticks out to me as especially attractive. It's a 15 second base Mag 3 Confuse, Most actual control sets do not get a power like this. Boggle has a lower duration than Confuse, Possess and Deceive, less range, and longer Recharge, but is otherwise identical.

 

Someone mentioned Carnies. An interesting tidbit about dealing with them is that if you confuse a Master Illusionist, all of her pets will also be Confused. This will happen to any creature that summons pets, including Masterminds encountered in the AE, Rikti portals, etc. Boggle has recharge of 20, so the lowest recharge you can bring it down to is 5 seconds. More realistically, 7-8 seconds is probably close to where most end game builds will land. That makes it doable. Not a prime strategy for boss level enemies, but worth throwing the Confuses in there when you can.

 

Basically Confuse is the "I win" switch. Any ability a creature has that would normally make them difficult to fight can be turned against them. In that way, Confusion powers work like a reverse card. The more challenging the developers make the enemy, the better Confuse becomes. You especially want to be on the look out for enemies who have + or -Resist powers. Reversing that will directly contribute to your kill speed, either by removing enemy resists or multiplying what wasn't there before.

IIRC Elite Bosses have Mag 6 Confusion protection. Boggle is Mag 3, so you need greater than 6 mag to Confuse them. You'd have to build for enough recharge and Confusion duration to do it, but it should be possible. Luckily Confusion sets have excellent set bonuses, at least from the perspective of squishies. The purple set +10 Recharge and +5 Ranged Defense and the Contagious Confusion proc. The cheap-o oranges set has Ranged defense, a damage proc if you want that, and Ranged defense. Maybe that's less important for an armored character, but for sure any set that gets a Confuse power I lean into those set bonuses. The Purple is as good as an ATO set.

Edited April 16, 2022 by oedipus_tex

[Naraka]

Currently dipping back into my Elec/Regen Stalker, I remember when Elec Melee was considered the peak standard for AoE. It's crazy how things have started to shift so that the amount of AoE effects for melee is seeing Elec melee as "standard". Id kind of pisses me off because the more saturation you have the less special it becomes and no one seems to understand this shift. Now there can't be "single-target focused" sets and jack-of-all-trade sets need to basically be Elec Melee (or whatever analogy for a particular type of set like Blasts or Control).

[SaintD]

6 hours ago, Naraka said:

Currently dipping back into my Elec/Regen Stalker, I remember when Elec Melee was considered the peak standard for AoE. It's crazy how things have started to shift so that the amount of AoE effects for melee is seeing Elec melee as "standard". Id kind of pisses me off because the more saturation you have the less special it becomes and no one seems to understand this shift. Now there can't be "single-target focused" sets and jack-of-all-trade sets need to basically be Elec Melee (or whatever analogy for a particular type of set like Blasts or Control).

 

It's difficult not to agree. The discourse is dominated by x4/x8, and single target considered worthless as a result of how the game is being played.

 

Teams are just too big for anything except an AV to live long enough to matter from an ST damage perspective, and I/O defense manipulation allowed the problem to reach even solo play as people can end up surviving at difficulties they just shouldn't against enemy numbers never intended.

[DrBasics]

I literally only have 1 issue with psi melee. That is the fact that I want every single attack to have the "giant hand" effect. I would love to psychically punch people tf out. That being said, you have convinced me to give it a shot.

[Marbing]

On 4/15/2022 at 8:26 PM, InvaderStych said:

TLDR Version:

 

Mob Resistance to Psi is a "Spreadsheet Argument" that doesn't impact game play remotely as much as the forums would have one believe, and when discussed the other side of the coin is never mentioned: cutting through Unstoppable, BP "Spirit Of" bosses being weak against it (among many other annoying mobs as well), and being able to swat down a Brickernaut while it is doing the Golden Countdown of Death (Psi damage is the only damage they take in this state) are all completely forgotten because "OMG! Council Robots Take Half Psi Damage!!!!" ... as if Council Bots are a threat.

 

Do some mobs resist Psi? Yes. Does it matter? No.

 

Boggle has the same purpose as Confront - a power to skip in favor of build flexibility.  Until it is either an AoE like the new version of Touch of Fear or until it becomes an auto-hit toggle AoE that applies Boggled status and ditches the Confuse for generous amounts of -rech it will remain so.  Boggle is the one cottage that really needs to be burned down and rebuilt from scratch.  There *might* be a case for a Confuse on a Stalker.  On every other melee class it is a waste of time.

 

ML and GPB could stand to have their activation times shaved, and the damage scale reduction done to GPB sometime around Page 1 (or was it earlier?) should be reviewed as the reduction was quite massive and possibly overdone.

 

The set cannot be either "All Fists" or "All Blades" because the Fists are Smashing/Psi while the Blades are Lethal/Psi, and mixing in the more common damage types helps against various mobs that resist Psi.  Smashing is good on bots and Lethal is good on Zombies.  Recall, also, that ML is *all* Smashing.

 

Finally, the damage delay on ML is too damn long. I don't mind the delay as that means ML can benefit from its own -Res proc, but the delay is too long.

 

Edit: None of that was intended to sound as argumentative or potentially antagonistic as it may have sounded.  Just sort of throwing out a quick post on the thread.  Apologies if tone was off-putting.

Dude, that is a long TLDR.

 

No offense intended, just being silly.

But yes, boggle is useful as a utility in theory but not as useful in practice. I have a psi/inv stalker. My first build had boggle. It was fun to play around with, but my clear times are MUCH faster without it. Why spend time boggling something I can end in 1 or 2 hits? Now... That being said... Boggle definitely has its uses. A confuse on a stalker is pretty handy to have in some niche situations. But overall, it is a mostly skippable power. 

 

 

Edited April 22, 2022 by Marbing