Does stealth suppression work based on stealth or based on attacking?

[DougGraves]

I took the stealth pool power.  If I leave it on, when I attack I stop being stealthed even though the power is running.  It takes some time to resteatlth after a fight.

 

If I turn off stealth at the start of the fight and turn it on after the fight will I stealth immediately or does it wait for a certain amount of time after my last attack whether or not stealth was on when I attacked?

[Doomguide2005]

     Don't know for certain but I'd guess if you activate after attacking it'll conceal you without delay (beyond any delay normally occurring after activating).  The drawback is by toggling off and then back on is you'll lose the portion of the +def that isn't suppressed when you attack.  In essence it would be like momentarily getting toggle dropped by mez.

[Ironblade]

7 hours ago, DougGraves said:

If I turn off stealth at the start of the fight and turn it on after the fight will I stealth immediately or does it wait for a certain amount of time after my last attack whether or not stealth was on when I attacked?

It would be easy enough to determine.  Just monitor your PvE stealth radius in the combat monitor and test it as you described.

[Uun]

BTW, the suppression is 10 seconds. It's triggered by you attacking a foe, clicking an object or being hit by a foe.

[Snarky]

Dark armor has a “limited” stealth (not full invisibility)  that does not suppress.  It is good until about 30 feet away.  
 

That means you are not seen unless within 30 feet of a mob. Unless that mob has special sight like Rikti drones or Rularuu Eyeballs

 

This is one of the tricks that makes Dark Armor so effective.  What better defense than only being seen by what you want to see you?

[DougGraves]

4 hours ago, Snarky said:

This is one of the tricks that makes Dark Armor so effective.  What better defense than only being seen by what you want to see you?

 

But with Stealth from the pool now so good, does it matter that Dark Armor has it?  Rad armor can easily pick up stealth - and it can run it without running out of END. 

[Snarky]

29 minutes ago, DougGraves said:

 

But with Stealth from the pool now so good, does it matter that Dark Armor has it?  Rad armor can easily pick up stealth - and it can run it without running out of END. 

The difference is the suppression.  Dark Armor Stealth will never suppress.  You always have it, even in combat.

 

Say, as a villain, you have a Dark Armor Brute.  You see a group of Longbow next to the glowie you need.  Next to them, in the same room, is another group of Longbow with two Wardens.  Bad news.  Unless you are Dark Armor!  You solo the group of Longbow next to the glowie.  Grab the Glowie.  The group 35 feet away?  They have no idea you just wiped out a Longbow squad.  Those guys must have went on break.

 

 

Edited April 16, 2022 by Snarky

[Doomguide2005]

Just a few thoughts:

     Cloak of Darkness provides 35ft radius stealth.  It is suppressed (10 sec) when you click a mission objective.  It is canceled when you are Stunned, Held or Slept.  

     You will be perceived any time Perception - stealth is greater than the distance to a foe.  If you are perceived the foe will most likely aggro on you but ... 

     Some foes ignore stealth.  Infamously the various Rikti Drones, Rularuu Eyeballs, and KoA.  

     The new ASF and any future content with the new hard difficulty settings have foes with greater base perception.

     Most foes base perception is 45, 50 and 54ft -> Minions, Lts and Bosses respectively.  EB's and AV's are also typically 54ft.  Turrets and GM's 100ft.  Snipers 149ft, Players 500ft (not sure why this matters since PvP values/rules are likely the only time this matters and they're different AFAIK).

      There's a wide variety of values the various stealthy powers provide from 25ft to 200ft.  Some of them also include a -threat value as well.  

3 hours ago, DougGraves said:

 

But with Stealth from the pool now so good, does it matter that Dark Armor has it?  Rad armor can easily pick up stealth - and it can run it without running out of END. 

Depends on how the build or builder values other effects of the particular powers.  Cloak of Darkness also provides +perception, resists perception debuffs, the +defense doesn't suppress and provides immobilize protection along with its stealth.

[oedipus_tex]

Minor note about that extra base Perception:

 

Extra Perception on critters can be extremely dangerous. Extra Perception doesn't just cut through your Stealth, it actually widens the area of awareness the critter has. That means on a character with no Stealth at all, they'll aggro from further away. This can come as a real shock if you're used to being able to get pretty close to packs without aggroing them. 

 

I haven't run into these critters in the new Task Force yet, so I am not sure if they share the same mechanics. In the AE though enemies with certain powersets can have extra Perception, and it will cause them to aggro from much further away than you're expecting. Some mission designers with murder in mind take advantage of this to cause the whole map to descend on the player team and disallow easy tank and spank strategies. I believe having some Stealth on your toon counteracts the extra range of enemy Perception, so even if you're not totally invisible, you're still better off than the player with no Stealth at all, who is suddenly aggroing enemies from across the map.

Edited April 17, 2022 by oedipus_tex

[oedipus_tex]

Oh yah, kinda related to the topic of Cloak of Darkness.

 

I don't think the Stealth in the Illusion Control power Superior Invisibility suppresses at all in PVE. I'm pretty sure I remember situations where I've been fighting one group, been knocked back into the middle of another group, and got up and walked away without the second group reacting at all. You do have to watch for your pets alerting enemies, but otherwise I think it will hide you completely until you alert them with an attack. It's been a very long time since I tried it tho, maybe someone familiar with the current way the set works can comment. Group Invisibility looks like it may work the same way based on what I see in City of Data.

 

Interestingly, critters with +Perception may finally draw a dividing line between Superior Invisibility and Group Invisibility for Illusion trollers. Super Invis has 200 feet radius Stealth versus just 60 for Group Invis. 

Edited April 17, 2022 by oedipus_tex

[Doomguide2005]

4 hours ago, oedipus_tex said:

Oh yah, kinda related to the topic of Cloak of Darkness.

 

I don't think the Stealth in the Illusion Control power Superior Invisibility suppresses at all in PVE. I'm pretty sure I remember situations where I've been fighting one group, been knocked back into the middle of another group, and got up and walked away without the second group reacting at all. You do have to watch for your pets alerting enemies, but otherwise I think it will hide you completely until you alert them with an attack. It's been a very long time since I tried it tho, maybe someone familiar with the current way the set works can comment. Group Invisibility looks like it may work the same way based on what I see in City of Data.

 

Interestingly, critters with +Perception may finally draw a dividing line between Superior Invisibility and Group Invisibility for Illusion trollers. Super Invis has 200 feet radius Stealth versus just 60 for Group Invis. 

Correct, Superior Invisibility the stealth component only suppresses when you click a mission objective.  It also has a -threat component which as long as you neither attack or click on a mission objective also remains.  If you really want to go stealthy team wide use SI to get close enough to use something like Smoke to debuff perception and almost nothing currently is going to react to anyone.

[Burk]

On 4/16/2022 at 10:58 AM, Snarky said:

Dark armor has a “limited” stealth (not full invisibility)  that does not suppress.  It is good until about 30 feet away.  
 

That means you are not seen unless within 30 feet of a mob. Unless that mob has special sight like Rikti drones or Rularuu Eyeballs

 

This is one of the tricks that makes Dark Armor so effective.  What better defense than only being seen by what you want to see you?

 

Cloak of Darkness provides 35ft of PvE stealth. That subtracts from an enemy's perception, so against a normal minion with 45ft perception, they cannot see you unless you are within 10ft.

[Burk]

On 4/17/2022 at 8:18 AM, oedipus_tex said:

Minor note about that extra base Perception:

 

Extra Perception on critters can be extremely dangerous. Extra Perception doesn't just cut through your Stealth, it actually widens the area of awareness the critter has. That means on a character with no Stealth at all, they'll aggro from further away. This can come as a real shock if you're used to being able to get pretty close to packs without aggroing them.

 

It is worth noting that not all critters that can see through stealth do so through extra perception. Rikti Drones and Knives of Artemis just ignore stealth, even Superior Invisibility's 200ft stealth, but definitely don't see normal unstealthed players from 200ft away.

[Doomguide2005]

3 hours ago, Burk said:

 

It is worth noting that not all critters that can see through stealth do so through extra perception. Rikti Drones and Knives of Artemis just ignore stealth, even Superior Invisibility's 200ft stealth, but definitely don't see normal unstealthed players from 200ft away.

     Yep, they'd see you at perception minus stealth or since stealth is 0 (effectively since it's ignored) see you at their perception range, the 45, 50 and 54ft etc. (listed previously).  This is why and when powers like Smoke or Flash Arrow come in handy beyond their already useful To Hit debuff.  They apply a massive debuff to perception (as in a straight up -450ft), enough so that Sniper can't even see his own hands.  Not only can he not see the caster but can't see anything or anyone else like teammates whose stealth is far less (most of us) than a Stalker or Illusion Controller using SI

[oedipus_tex]

Thanks for the info. It's these small, interesting variations that keep this game fresh all these years later.