My recent experiment with the Mastermind kinetics secondary and why I think it is lacklustre

[desarix]

I play a lot of the Mastermind Archetype in fact one can argue I play too many masterminds. So with the exception of Empathy, Pain and to some extent Sonic, Forcefields and Thermal I have a good idea by level 20 what works. I am as early as level 15 already pushing +2X1 with generic IOs and single origins.

 

Even my Merc/Cold has performed at +2 and +3 well because they hardly die even if it takes time for them to kill but I can complete missions at those settings.

 

I am now at level 20 on the Kinetic/Thugs and they are getting wiped out at +2. The biggest problem is that there is hardly any mitigation to incoming damage. At this level your main debuffs are Transfusion which takes away end and regen from the enemy and heals your minions. With Thugs this can often miss them since they are ranged pets. Which is a big pain to manage but the other choices are zombies, beasts and ninjas(hah) if you want melee pets and I believe they may do even worse. Well the beasts might actually lasts since my Beasts/Time are really good but Time is superior so there is that.

 

Then you have siphon power which reduces the mobs damage ability and lets your pet do more damage. Finally at 20 you have siphon speed that takes away the mobs recharge and speed and makes you so trippy you're randomly running into other groups.

 

What is lacking here is the ability to debuff the mob's defense and in any significant way really reduce the incoming damage or buff them in such a way as to protect the pets. . Most of the other secondaries have very solid ways to do this like time, radiation, storm, dark, traps, poison, trick arrow, which can all significantly reduce the enemies ability to inflict damage and to also debuff them too. Others like Electrical Affinity have the faraday cage with resistance that reduces incoming damage and sonic, forcefields, thermal, cold do the same with their shields. That is also achieved by a debuffing set like traps that can also protect and natural affinity which can debuff and protect and heal.

 

In the interest of full disclosure I will admit facing Council can be be one of the harder enemy groups because of the AOEs they do. My gangwar was wiped out and so were my pets multiple times. I really think this secondary is really weak in comparison to all the others.

 

Also there is nothing really to look forward too that can alleviate the secondary like Cold has benumb and sleet and heat loss all of which are very effective late debuffing. Kinetics just doubles down on minus damage on mob and plus damage to your pets and minus end and recovery which does nada for pets since  recharge have no effect on them and they hardly run out of end.

 

Of course if I dropped the difficulty to +1 I could have done it but that is not my point. I set out to prove how it performed and was disappointed. In groups I rock though. People love kinetics and even if they are not as great as a kinetic defender having one transfusing like a loon is so good for melee group members. I can play in groups well but talking purely as whether this is a good secondary I will have to put it at the bottom of the list.

Edited May 10, 2022 by desarix

[desarix]

5 minutes ago, Krimson said:

Transfusion is one of the best heals in the game. Slot the hell out of it. I have five Preventive Medicine in my Elec/Kin Corr.

 

Agreed it is in groups but with ranged pets when you're soloing they are often not within range. So as a heal for my thugs they are not good.

[PLVRIZR]

5 minutes ago, desarix said:

 

So as a heal for my thugs they are not good.

 

Why I took Dark Miasma, for Thugs.  As you note, kin works better with melee pets, so target transfusion through your Bruiser.  If you can keep him perma-alive, it'll be alot easier for you.

[Riverdusk]

Beasts really is the goto for kinetics.  You can actually soft cap defense beasts with just their primary using the pet IO's, maneuvers, and fortify pack (although it takes a lot of recharge to get it perma).  Since you'll have fulcrum, the lack of crits isn't as big a deal.  Plus they have good resistances built in on top of it.  And of course your heal is then easy to use as they are all melee.  It is honestly the only MM set I'd pair with kinetics myself.  On page 2 of the linked thread you'll see the defense numbers for it broken down.

 

 

Edit:  Not that I disagree totally with your thread title.  That it only works well with one primary I agree makes it sorta lackluster for a MM imo.

Edited May 10, 2022 by Riverdusk

[PLVRIZR]

2 hours ago, Krimson said:

I think Transfusion has to target an enemy.

 

It does, but you can target through your pet, if you are targeted on their target.

[ZeeHero]

Doesn't he mean specifically for MM because MM pets die so easily without support?  Kinetics offers less in terms of defensive support than other sets in exchange for damage- buffs I don't even think pets fully benefit from..

Edited May 10, 2022 by ZeeHero

[desarix]

24 minutes ago, ZeeHero said:

Doesn't he mean specifically for MM because MM pets die so easily without support?  Kinetics offers less in terms of defensive support than other sets in exchange for damage- buffs I don't even think pets fully benefit from..

 

I amended the title to reflect that. I know kinetic is excellent just not with a mastermind and ranged pets.

 

3 hours ago, Riverdusk said:

Beasts really is the goto for kinetics.  You can actually soft cap defense beasts with just their primary using the pet IO's, maneuvers, and fortify pack (although it takes a lot of recharge to get it perma).  Since you'll have fulcrum, the lack of crits isn't as big a deal.  Plus they have good resistances built in on top of it.  And of course your heal is then easy to use as they are all melee.  It is honestly the only MM set I'd pair with kinetics myself.  On page 2 of the linked thread you'll see the defense numbers for it broken down.

 

 

Edit:  Not that I disagree totally with your thread title.  That it only works well with one primary I agree makes it sorta lackluster for a MM imo.

 

Yes I do believe this might be the best pairing for kinetics.

[DocMidknight]

  I'm liking my demon/kin MM.....the siphoning of the enemies health and stamina plays perfectly into my succubus theme

[StrikerFox]

I haven't tried it but I think Kinetics would work with any MM primary if a Tankermind style is played. 

[desarix]

10 hours ago, StrikerFox said:

I haven't tried it but I think Kinetics would work with any MM primary if a Tankermind style is played. 

 

I am in melee range all the time as a Mastermind in BG mode, so I do play a tankermind, I have a macro that sends my mid tier to attack when I need it. Pets that are ranged get protection from being in range if you keep dragging them to melee range to heal them they lose that protection. Ranged pets are meant to play effectively at range. In the past when the AI was worst all the ranged pets used to occasionally and randomly just go to a mob and decide to slap them and stay there and get walloped because they are in melee. The time it takes the mob to get close to them with a bat is the time they are not getting hurt. If you place them next to the mob with the bat you're removing that mitigation.

 

This secondary is best played with melee pets and it was a miscalculation on my part when I failed to account for transfusion. Beasts are probably the best pairing. Ninjas the paper tigers won't survive without either strong shields or debuffing sets. I have ninja/dark, ninja/time and ninja/storm all of which do well paired with them as their damage and speed in combat is really great they just need to survive long enough to deliver the beating.

 

Zombies might work too because their third tier pet which is in range hardly needs a heal. Probably my next experiment is either beasts or zombies with kinetic.

Edited May 11, 2022 by desarix

[SeraphimKensai]

8 hours ago, desarix said:

 

I am in melee range all the time as a Mastermind in BG mode, so I do play a tankermind, I have a macro that sends my mid tier to attack when I need it. Pets that are ranged get protection from being in range if you keep dragging them to melee range to heal them they lose that protection. Ranged pets are meant to play effectively at range. In the past when the AI was worst all the ranged pets used to occasionally and randomly just go to a mob and decide to slap them and stay there and get walloped because they are in melee. The time it takes the mob to get close to them with a bat is the time they are not getting hurt. If you place them next to the mob with the bat you're removing that mitigation.

 

This secondary is best played with melee pets and it was a miscalculation on my part when I failed to account for transfusion. 

Yes Kin is meant to be played in melee, but if you can compensate for it with slotting a thugs/kin with burnout is a thing of chaotic beauty. Double gangwar fulcrum shifts, mobs melting, your pets getting rocked but having so many you still overwhelm the opposition. Kudos for fitting in fold space as well to draw in a large amount of mobs for those fulcrum shifts.

[Crysis]

On 5/10/2022 at 2:16 PM, Riverdusk said:

 

Edit:  Not that I disagree totally with your thread title.  That it only works well with one primary I agree makes it sorta lackluster for a MM imo.

 

I've only played /Kin MM's with Demons and Beasts.  With Demons, I -had- to make heavy use of "tankerminding" to take the alpha and initial aggro, hoping my pets would jump into melee for me to Fulcrum.  Later I started making heavy use of the GOTO command to get the Demons to stay in one place for the heals and fulcrum, but that just meant they weren't doing their thing on their own, which is a big draw to me of playing MM's in the first place...my henchmen have their own combat routines.  I enjoy micromanaging to a point, but with Kin, it was micromanaging to use my /Kin powers, forcing me to mostly override the Demons own combat strengths.

 

Beasts/Kin was easier, but by that point I'd pretty much just decided that as much as I love Kinetics, its better suited to a self-damage dealer like Corruptors or as a team buff.  

[brasilgringo]

On 5/10/2022 at 7:16 PM, Riverdusk said:

Beasts really is the goto for kinetics.  You can actually soft cap defense beasts with just their primary using the pet IO's, maneuvers, and fortify pack (although it takes a lot of recharge to get it perma).  Since you'll have fulcrum, the lack of crits isn't as big a deal.  Plus they have good resistances built in on top of it.  And of course your heal is then easy to use as they are all melee.  It is honestly the only MM set I'd pair with kinetics myself.  On page 2 of the linked thread you'll see the defense numbers for it broken down.

 

 

Edit:  Not that I disagree totally with your thread title.  That it only works well with one primary I agree makes it sorta lackluster for a MM imo.

don't forget powerboost!

[StrikerFox]

On 5/11/2022 at 4:58 AM, desarix said:

I am in melee range all the time as a Mastermind in BG mode, so I do play a tankermind,

 

Tankermind is more than just the MM being in melee range and BG mode. It's also using a power that gains aggro and maintaining it. MM survival based on a combination of build, powers and BG mode.

 

ST melee and ranged attacks will be directed at the MM so the pets only take AoE and BG damage. Pet AoE defense should be at around +40% def so most of the time, Transfusion should be able to out-heal damage they take. Pets at ranged would probably avoid AoE damage completely.

[desarix]

6 hours ago, StrikerFox said:

 

Tankermind is more than just the MM being in melee range and BG mode. It's also using a power that gains aggro and maintaining it. MM survival based on a combination of build, powers and BG mode.

 

ST melee and ranged attacks will be directed at the MM so the pets only take AoE and BG damage. Pet AoE defense should be at around +40% def so most of the time, Transfusion should be able to out-heal damage they take. Pets at ranged would probably avoid AoE damage completely.

I'm still low level but I am building towards it. Right now this Mastermind is only around level 20  so haven't even remotely got there yet.

 

Also I must admit playing so many alts I cannot really make any bleeding edge builds. I am also always levelling using story arcs and some grouping so I want to be effective from low levels  and up to when I get to 50. I am not interested in just being effective when I'm tricked out. Hence my criticism of this secondary as a levelling secondary is what I am trying to get across. I am sure once I have spent some time getting it all slotted out it will perform better but that isn't the point I'm making.

 

When I was taking about the Merc/Cold build I was taking on +2 on that very modestly slotted generic IOs and some single origins and it was around level 15. So I was trying to see how kinetic performed and that was why I was disappointed. If a build can only be good once you have slotted it well than new players will struggle with it.

 

Yesterday I took a Demon/Thermal through that arc in Steel Canyon after the Dr.Vahzilok  was detained. I was facing freaks in +3 at level 20+. Yeah it was a little hard and I ran away a lot but I completed those missions with those 'zoombies' and self rezzing freaks well enough. In fact I had no personal attacks but those shields are really good. I must say demon/thermal is solid out of the box. Most of it was done at +2. I had only single origins and a few generic ios. Some were double origins. I don't fund my new masterminds with influence from my other toons. I buy and sell some recipes I get cheap and I try to get about a million and that is what I use. Mine is as close to a pauper build that I can make.

 

A lot of the fun I have is making a new toon with no help and seeing what I can do with it. Of course this won't work with every archetype but Masterminds are in my opinion in a unique position because when I tried this with a Dominator and I could not even manage +1. I had to drop most missions to -1. Otherwise it took an age so I just only levelled in groups. Scrapper and Sentinel were in a slightly better position than the dominator but very painful solo levelling. I solo level because I love doing story arcs. That is what I mainly enjoy doing in this game. 

 

I have not even one toon at 50. For me in every MMORPG the journey is the most important source of entertainment. Of course different players have different goals so please try to understand the perspective this critique is coming from.

Edited May 13, 2022 by desarix