Someone Explain Taunt to Me.

[srmalloy]

2) It looks like Taunt is retroactive. If you first deal 500 damage then Taunt second, the 500 damage will be affected by Taunt.

 

If I'm remembering from the old forums correctly, this was explicitly stated by Positron at one point. Taunt gives you a measure of aggro on its own, then applies the taunt modifier to the aggro you have. If you already have aggro, that gets lumped in with the aggro from taunt before the modifier is applied, which is what makes dropping a high-damage AoE in a spawn and then taunting gets you a much better lock on the spawn than taunting, then attacking -- you do it the second way, and the Blasters and Scrappers will be able to pull aggro off you fairly easily.

[Redshadows]

DA has three taunt auras.

 

Death Shroud - The neg damage one

 

Cloak of Fear - the fear one

 

Oppressive Gloom - the stun one

 

AFAIR, the three have taunt in them.

[redtwister666]

Unless there is something missing in MIDS Hero Designer, OG and CoF do not have taunt in their powers nor do they accept +taunt enhancements.

[jack_nomind]

Unless there is something missing in MIDS Hero Designer, OG and CoF do not have taunt in their powers nor do they accept +taunt enhancements.

 

Are you entirely sure you're looking at the Tanker version?

 

 

Check out entaicritter.c, specifically the aiCritterFindTarget around line 450.

 

Everyone who's reading this thread should be +infing Sarrate for this.

[Symbolis]

My main reason for taking the Taunt skill isn't to get aggro on me. That's just a nice benefit.

 

I take Taunt for the -Range (75%) to bring stragglers in closer.

[BelleSorciere]

My main reason for taking the Taunt skill isn't to get aggro on me. That's just a nice benefit.

 

I take Taunt for the -Range (75%) to bring stragglers in closer.

 

Yeah, that's the main reason my tankers had taunt.

[redtwister666]

Unless there is something missing in MIDS Hero Designer, OG and CoF do not have taunt in their powers nor do they accept +taunt enhancements.

 

Are you entirely sure you're looking at the Tanker version?

 

 

Check out entaicritter.c, specifically the aiCritterFindTarget around line 450.

 

Everyone who's reading this thread should be +infing Sarrate for this.

 

I stand corrected, sir!  You are indeed correct.  The three auras do taunt, the taunt isn't enhanceable for OP and CoF, but they are Mag 4 taunts.

 

You all are great, I love the engagement in the forums.  Thanks.  I've updated the original post I did.

 

Still would love to hear from the other Tankers about their Taunt Auras.

[Tiffany Seville]

3) If your taunt's duration isn't double the remaining taunt duration of the current target, your taunt is nullified.

 

That's pretty interesting. I'd be interested in hearing more about that.

 

Sigh ... makes me wish I had as much time as I used to to dig into these things ...

 

Edit: I was looking at the code for this - it's an oddly simple check that is only relevant if you have an active taunt. It looks like you are basically guaranteed to re-up your own taunt if you are the current target.

 

The duration link is interesting. It makes you wonder if you could stack enough recharge on Taunt to be able to reliably hit it right at the time when the current target's taunt duration falls below the 2x mark against your taunt.

 

It's also interesting to see how easy it is to get your taunt dropped to null. It's easy to assume that Taunt accumulates, like damage, but it really doesn't. You basically have a cap based on your max taunt duration. So, no matter how many times you taunt, you don't accumulate aggro.You just reset your aggro to its max possible value.

 

It looks like there is only one taunt counted for a target. So, there must be code somewhere that decides if you have multiple taunt sources on a target, which one gets counted - presumably the one with the longest duration?

 

[Tiffany Seville]

3) If your taunt's duration isn't double the remaining taunt duration of the current target, your taunt is nullified.

I was also just realizing "nullified" is an important word in this sentence. Your taunt isn't actually removed in this case - it is still active. So, if conditions change, your taunt will be un-nullified. You don't have to re-taunt for this to happen.

Edit - jack_nomind (see following posts) pointed out I misread that code block. Just strinking-through my comment so as not to mislead anybody.

[jack_nomind]

It's also interesting to see how easy it is to get your taunt dropped to null. It's easy to assume that Taunt accumulates, like damage, but it really doesn't. You basically have a cap based on your max taunt duration. So, no matter how many times you taunt, you don't accumulate aggro.You just reset your aggro to its max possible value.

 

It looks like there is only one taunt counted for a target. So, there must be code somewhere that decides if you have multiple taunt sources on a target, which one gets counted - presumably the one with the longest duration?

 

One thing that is not at all clear from this function is how AI targets sources of mez or healing, which we know from gameplay that they do.  The ranged Taunt powers are supposed to trigger the same behavior, which is evidently separate from their effect as a Taunt status.  But emphatically it does not appear to be the case that targets are ever affected by more than one Taunt multiplier period -- literally all of them are scrapped except one (the first one that lands, replaced by the next one that lands subsequently with >=2x duration, replaced same).  Even with six tanks, the target will only have one Taunt.

 

And this does gel with my experience.  My observation has been that when I am tanking and lose aggro to another tank or brute, and they go down, the target will aggro whoever attacks them next rather than me (even though I would have expected to have Gauntlet or Taunt still multiplying my aggro).

 

I was also just realizing "nullified" is an important word in this sentence. Your taunt isn't actually removed in this case - it is still active. So, if conditions change, your taunt will be un-nullified. You don't have to re-taunt for this to happen.

 

Don't read too much into the language.  The taunt is a) gone (the word the code documentation uses is "scrapped," and what it actually appears to do is set the new taunt duration to 0 so it gets removed on the next clean-up) and b) if it wasn't gone, there are no circumstances where it would matter because it would still expire before the longer-duration one.

[Tiffany Seville]

One thing that is not at all clear from this function is how AI targets sources of mez or healing, which we know from gameplay that they do. 

Yeah, there‘s really nothing in the danger calculation that jumps out for MEZ or Healing effects. Although it is a massive block of code with all sorts of weird edge behaviors.

 

Back during live, I ran a bunch of taunt experiments where it was evident a tanker could intermittently lose taunt to a mass hold. It was never clear why that was happening and the code hasn‘t helped much so far.

 

And this does gel with my experience.  My observation has been that when I am tanking and lose aggro to another tank or brute, and they go down, the target will aggro whoever attacks them next rather than me (even though I would have expected to have Gauntlet or Taunt still multiplying my aggro).

Along this line, I‘Ve been curious about what conditions zero out the damage accumulator that also factors into the danger calculation. My poor memory seems to think just going down isn‘t enough and you can reasonably reclaim Aggro if you are Rez-ed at some point. But, if you zone (for example, come back from the hospital), does your accumulated damage zero out making it difficult to regain Aggro if you return to a long fight. I remember somebody experiencing behavior like this back in live that we struggled to explain.

 

Don't read too much into the language.  The taunt is a) gone (the word the code documentation uses is "scrapped," and what it actually appears to do is set the new taunt duration to 0 so it gets removed on the next clean-up) and b) if it wasn't gone, there are no circumstances where it would matter because it would still expire before the longer-duration one.

Oof ... yeah, I just went back and looked at the code and realized I completely missed the duration update and only saw the multiplier (i.e. tauntFactor) assignment.

 

So, my mistake! Need to start wearing those stupid reading glasses.

 

[jack_nomind]

Yeah, there‘s really nothing in the danger calculation that jumps out for MEZ or Healing effects. Although it is a massive block of code with all sorts of weird edge behaviors.

 

Given all the spaghetti code complaints from Paragon devs, I'd bet that that's handled somewhere in a function that resolves attacks or applies damage rather than here in the aggro function.

[Sarrate]

Btw, there is a similar check in entaiEvent.c, specifically aiEventHandleAttacked(...) (which looks like it gets called when an entity it affected by a power) where it won't set the taunt duration if it's not greater than double the current taunt. So even if you taunt something and its target dies, it still won't know you taunted it (if the target dies between aiCritterFindTarget() calls, so that doesn't zero it out).

 

 

This jives with my experience that, if you want to hold aggro, you want to 1) be the first one to apply taunts (eg: rush ahead of the group while they're mopping up the current spawn) and 2) have the longest Taunt so other's can't easily override yours and 3) use it often to make sure it's near impossible for someone else to Taunt while your duration is getting low.

[David Dun]

I don't see too many tankers spec'ing Provoke from the presence pool these days. Inst that a ranged aoe taunt or is it single target?

[Sura]

It's AoE but it has a to-hit roll associated with it.  I  had it for a bit and then needed the power slot for something else so I respecced out of it.

[srmalloy]

This jives with my experience that, if you want to hold aggro, you want to 1) be the first one to apply taunts (eg: rush ahead of the group while they're mopping up the current spawn) and 2) have the longest Taunt so other's can't easily override yours and 3) use it often to make sure it's near impossible for someone else to Taunt while your duration is getting low.

 

If I remember the process correctly you want to be out in front to a) do a good amount of damage, and b) apply your Taunt before anyone else. The attack gets you your Threat increase and initial aggro, then the Taunt multiplies the effect of them. Yes, Taunt gives you Threat and aggro, but it also is a big buff to the Threat and aggro you already have. This is a mistake that inexperienced tanks make, and was discussed extensively in the original forums -- they would run into/up to a spawn, Taunt, pull the spawn into a convenient corner to clump them up... and have a Scrapper or Blaster pull aggro off them with their first AoE, because the tank's initial Taunt didn't have anything to build on, and was weak.

[Redshadows]

I've been trying out a Dark Armor tank for a while with a theme of "Fear", so I've gone and taken most powers in the presence set.

 

Since I have such a hard time with end, since DA, I really like using Taunt and Provoke. I deal next to no damage, but I've taken both Cloak of Fear and Oppressive Gloom and I've become something of a tanktroller. Provoke, while being a tohit power, is really useful since I also have Dark Melee, and thus have very little AoE.

 

In other words, Taunt has been invaluable for me because I have such an end heavy set. I let my teamies kill things and I am their shield. I also mez the hell outta everything too, since Oppressive Gloom only really works on minions and Cloak of Fear works on lieus and bosses.

[Sarrate]

I don't see too many tankers spec'ing Provoke from the presence pool these days. Inst that a ranged aoe taunt or is it single target?

 

There are quite a few reasons:

 

                Taunt       Provoke
Duration        41 sec      16.4 sec
Tohit           Auto-hit    Required
Range           70ft        60ft
Range Debuff    -75%        N/A

 

Taunt blows Provoke out of the water in absolutely every way, with the taunt duration alone making it the clear winner. (Provoke is barely stronger than Gauntlet's 13.5 sec duration.) If you need more taunt, slot Taunt, invest in more recharge, and/or get Hasten to have it (and everything else) recharge faster.

 

There is also the fact that Taunt is part of Tanker secondaries while Provoke requires burning one of your 4 power pool slots.

[Kruunch]

This is true, and if the community is similar to how it was when CoH was not canceled, many scrappers and brutes may be deliberately trying to steal that aggro. :D

 

At least Brutes benefit by way of Fury. Scrappers, on the other hand...  :o (Of course, Taunt duration outstrips Confront, so they'd be fighting a losing battle, there!)

 

 

Are most tankers taking taunt now?

 

If they're not they aren't Tankers .... just gimpy Scrappers.

 

**EDIT** /wave Sarrate and Tiff

[Kruunch]

BTW it does feel like the Taunt mechanic was changed at some point (after i19?) as Taunt used to be a total lock down (i.e. the mag on Taunt could not be covered by damage due to the damage cap).

 

And actually I'm talking about Provoke since Provoke used to be 10 targets max and every Tanker would go into the Presence line for that (*that* was annoying).

 

So I'm guessing about the same time they normalized the Taunts and Provoke, they maybe tweaked the formula for the taunt mechanic?

 

Today in game, Taunt and taunt auras shouldn't be confused. Taunt has a much greater magnitude ... taunt auras can be fairly easily overridden if the Tanker (and/or group) is relying on them and nothing else to keep agro.

 

Gauntlet (punchvoke) is a neat mechanic but again, it's an addition to Taunt, not a replacement for it (functionally speaking).

 

Bottom line, if you're a Tanker and have Taunt and are active, you should have no problem holding agro providing the following:

 

1) Your group isn't jumping the gun on you

 

2) The mobs aren't so spread out that your taunt/aura/Gauntlet isn't reaching them all.

 

3) There aren't more than 16 mobs you are trying to engage.

 

4) You're not playing a pacifist concept character :P

[Sarrate]

BTW it does feel like the Taunt mechanic was changed at some point (after i19?) as Taunt used to be a total lock down (i.e. the mag on Taunt could not be covered by damage due to the damage cap).

 

And actually I'm talking about Provoke since Provoke used to be 10 targets max and every Tanker would go into the Presence line for that (*that* was annoying).

 

So I'm guessing about the same time they normalized the Taunts and Provoke, they maybe tweaked the formula for the taunt mechanic?

 

I wish I could give you an answer, but I really don't know. I wasn't playing Tankers when Provoke tanking was a thing, but also the devs held their cards much closer to their chest than Paragon Studios did later in the game. I do remember taunt effects being really wonky for a long time, though. I recently was going over old demos and I found one where I was in a team with an Invuln/ Tanker on my DM/Invuln against Infernal. He killed the Tanker, then swapped to me. The Tanker was ressed, and proceeded to Taunt and attack constantly. Infernal didn't swap back to him until I was defeated.

 

One thing that definitely happened, though, is taunt effects became far more prolific. Previously Invuln was the only Scrapper armor with a taunt aura. Now there is Shield as well (did a quick check on Mids, it didn't look like any other had taunts, surprisingly), not to mention the elephant in the room - Brutes. Sorry, you already know that part, though.

 

 

3) There aren't more than 16 mobs you are trying to engage.

 

"Well, actually" Kruunch, 17 mobs. ;)

 

 

/waves back

[Ground Fault]

I read this thread to try and understand the taunt mechanics. My question is about powers that allow damage AND taunt slotting. Going back to Jack's post on the first page discussing damage being a multiplier for taunt. Wouldn't it be better to just slot damage as it will increase your threat/taunt while also actually killing stuff?

[Kruunch]

I read this thread to try and understand the taunt mechanics. My question is about powers that allow damage AND taunt slotting. Going back to Jack's post on the first page discussing damage being a multiplier for taunt. Wouldn't it be better to just slot damage as it will increase your threat/taunt while also actually killing stuff?

 

Damage adds to threat which builds your agro. Taunt *enhancements* only increase the duration of the taunt effect of that power (not the magnitude).

 

Taunt and taunt effects are basically building agro without damage (or in addition to) at a greater scale (generally speaking).

[Ground Fault]

I read this thread to try and understand the taunt mechanics. My question is about powers that allow damage AND taunt slotting. Going back to Jack's post on the first page discussing damage being a multiplier for taunt. Wouldn't it be better to just slot damage as it will increase your threat/taunt while also actually killing stuff?

 

Damage adds to threat which builds your agro. Taunt *enhancements* only increase the duration of the taunt effect of that power (not the magnitude).

 

Taunt and taunt effects are basically building agro without damage (or in addition to) at a greater scale (generally speaking).

 

makes sense, I think I will stick with the damage slotting as I have several powers that taunt and mobs are usually dead by the time the taunt duration is up.

[jack_nomind]

Taunt and taunt effects are basically building agro without damage (or in addition to) at a greater scale (generally speaking).

 

simplifying this thread that way seems... perverse.

 

makes sense, I think I will stick with the damage slotting as I have several powers that taunt and mobs are usually dead by the time the taunt duration is up.

 

that's probably the right call.  from what we've gotten here, taunt enhancements only go in your taunt power or (rarely) your aura.  as long as you're using your taunt power, taunt enhancements anywhere else are wasted.