The tragedy of the Brute Fury nerf. A timeless lament

[BrandX]

2 minutes ago, Snarky said:

no

 

No?  They don't do better damage with Fire Melee?  They don't do better with all the resist sets and their damage auras?

 

And looking at pylon thread...EM/BIO Brute seems to be pretty equal to Scrapper and the one Scrapper version that did a bit better (9 seconds) has less defense on just being a scrapper.

 

Though, with ATOs, Brutes look to have a mixture of one set damage and one survival (in regen and sustaining powers) in terms of the ATO Proc, while Scrappers are both for damage.

 

However, if no Brute combo can out damage the equivalent Scrapper version, that should be playing as intended, seeing as how Brute version is for sure out surviving the Scrapper.

[Snarky]

Brute ATOs are not great.  Garbage compared to tank, scrapper and blaster ATOs

 

A resist set will not help you do damage. Not sure why you threw that in.  
 

You went from stating Brutes surpass Scrapper to saying one Brute came near a Scrapper in a single posted entry

 

The truth is Brutes are way out damaged by Scrappers

[Thrax]

Hey look!  It’s been a month since my last post complaining about brutes. Time to make another one with a different title. 

[Gobbledigook]

10 minutes ago, Krimson said:

My farming Tanker definitely out performs my main farming Brute so he has a point. That doesn't make Brutes useless by any stretch. I'll look at his Tanker build later and see what kind of job he did. 

I would say they are closer on Trash but not on bosses, Brute wins on Bosses. But my SS/Bio Brute is faster than my Bio/SS Tanker. Both have similar dps builds. I put the Brute in the middle of Tanker and Scrapper for damage and in between Tanker and Scrapper for survival. 

 

The damage procs are contributing a lot to damage and they are equal across all classes.

 

The Brute ATO definitely needs looking at. I will back you 100% with that and many others will also.

 

The Brute is in an awkward position that's true, since moving from redside. But they are still effective.

Edited October 9, 2022 by Gobbledegook

[BrandX]

1 hour ago, Snarky said:

Brute ATOs are not great.  Garbage compared to tank, scrapper and blaster ATOs

 

A resist set will not help you do damage. Not sure why you threw that in.  
 

You went from stating Brutes surpass Scrapper to saying one Brute came near a Scrapper in a single posted entry

 

The truth is Brutes are way out damaged by Scrappers

 

A lot of the resist sets have damage auras (Dark, Fire, Electric all come to mind).  Brutes Fury does more for those auras, than Scrappers, since Scrappers don't crit on them.

 

I used one example because if it happens in one, the same is likely true for others.

 

Also, I said I recall a time where Brutes out did Scrappers, and Brute players with the more survival balking at the idea of a hit to their Resist caps, something most wouldn't achieve on their own.

 

However if the difference between EM/BIO Scrapper and Brute is 9 seconds, there likely wouldn't be to much of a difference between other Scrapper and Brute Combos they share.

 

Then we go back to Brutes out surviving Scrappers.  There's a reason we see Fire Armor Brutes farming Fire maps and not Scrappers.  I know my Electric Armor Brute and Regen Brute survived better than my Scrapper equivalents.

[Erratic1]

3 hours ago, BrandX said:

When last I recall, don't they still equal or surpass Scrappers in DPS with some builds, while also making better use of all defense sets over Scrappers?

 

I believe you are confusing Tanks surpassing Brutes here.

[BrandX]

1 hour ago, Erratic1 said:

 

I believe you are confusing Tanks surpassing Brutes here.

 

I never once recall a Tanker out damaging a Brute. 

[Erratic1]

16 minutes ago, BrandX said:

I never once recall a Tanker out damaging a Brute. 

 

It is left as an exercise for the gentle reader to find Brutes with better times on the Trapdoor Mission than found here

 

I personally don't remember why the Dave Matthews Band was popular. 

[BrandX]

9 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

 

It is left as an exercise for the gentle reader to find Brutes with better times on the Trapdoor Mission than found here

 

I personally don't remember why the Dave Matthews Band was popular. 

 

That's a thread I've pretty much ignored.  Last I recall pretty AOE centric and Brutes still pulled ahead in ST while it was only certain sets that really benefited the tank, correct?  Again, I've maybe skimmed it at most, right at the end looks like it's "Well these couple of primaries..."

[Erratic1]

28 minutes ago, BrandX said:

 

That's a thread I've pretty much ignored.  Last I recall pretty AOE centric and Brutes still pulled ahead in ST while it was only certain sets that really benefited the tank, correct?  Again, I've maybe skimmed it at most, right at the end looks like it's "Well these couple of primaries..."

 

Your qualifying words were, "...with some builds". "Well these couple of primaries" fits that.

[Snarky]

Brand was saying brutes out damage Scrappers.  Erratic has shown a thread that proves Tanks out damage Brutes (at times). So, given forum logic Tanks out damage Scrappers!

Now we are moving the conversation forward.  

[Erratic1]

9 minutes ago, Snarky said:

Brand was saying brutes out damage Scrappers.  Erratic has shown a thread that proves Tanks out damage Brutes (at times). So, given forum logic Tanks out damage Scrappers!

Now we are moving the conversation forward.  

 

I admit I'd thought about mentioning the transitive property but refrained.

[BrandX]

I am convinced, now help me turn my Fire/Axe Tanker into feeling like a damage machine! 🙂  I don't feel like I kill faster than a Scrapper.

[Infinitum]

2 hours ago, Snarky said:

Brand was saying brutes out damage Scrappers.  Erratic has shown a thread that proves Tanks out damage Brutes (at times). So, given forum logic Tanks out damage Scrappers!

Now we are moving the conversation forward.  

 

 

That technically does not prove the tanker out damages the brute - rather that it has better tools to complete that mission faster.  I would like to see that build on a pylon vs the brute equivalent for a pure damage output analysis.

 

That may have been done - personally I haven't read through the trapdoor thread because IMO it allows cherry picked results (not purposefully cherry picked) for builds that will do well in that ONE situation vs others that it may not do as well.

 

What I mean is there won't be much that runs from a tanker - neither for the brute - but by design doesn't draw aggro as well as a tanker - a scrapper or stalker will out damage them both, but there will be runners and other factors.

 

All will likely survive but that mission honestly favors tankers over the rest of the melee classes.

 

For a more controlled mission type test - I suggest @Galaxy Brain brutal mission simulator in AE - IMO gives a more accurate result of damage output in a contained mission environment.

[Infinitum]

7 hours ago, Thrax said:

Hey look!  It’s been a month since my last post complaining about brutes. Time to make another one with a different title. 

 

Haha for real - at this point it's like - oh look there's another.  Sigh 

[Erratic1]

18 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

That technically does not prove the tanker out damages the brute - rather that it has better tools to complete that mission faster.  I would like to see that build on a pylon vs the brute equivalent for a pure damage output analysis.

 

Trapdoor is an actual mission. It is completed by doing damage to a fixed setup of opponents. Is there really much in the game involving an endless series of pylons (or pylon equivalents)? Because that Quatefield TF I just got out of seems a whole lot more like repeated Trapdoors than Pylons.

 

 

[Infinitum]

46 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

 

Trapdoor is an actual mission. It is completed by doing damage to a fixed setup of opponents. Is there really much in the game involving an endless series of pylons (or pylon equivalents)? Because that Quatefield TF I just got out of seems a whole lot more like repeated Trapdoors than Pylons.

 

 

 

Please go back and reread what I wrote.  

 

1 hour ago, Infinitum said:

What I mean is there won't be much that runs from a tanker - neither for the brute - but by design doesn't draw aggro as well as a tanker - a scrapper or stalker will out damage them both, but there will be runners and other factors.

 

All will likely survive but that mission honestly favors tankers over the rest of the melee classes.

 

For a more controlled mission type test - I suggest @Galaxy Brain brutal mission simulator in AE - IMO gives a more accurate result of damage output in a contained mission environment.

Specifically that part.

[Sanguinesun]

6 hours ago, BrandX said:

I am convinced, now help me turn my Fire/Axe Tanker into feeling like a damage machine! 🙂  I don't feel like I kill faster than a Scrapper.

 

I can give you a hit in the direction for considering how:  400% cap'd recharge.

[Sanguinesun]

3 hours ago, Infinitum said:

 

 

That technically does not prove the tanker out damages the brute - rather that it has better tools to complete that mission faster.  I would like to see that build on a pylon vs the brute equivalent for a pure damage output analysis.

 

That may have been done - personally I haven't read through the trapdoor thread because IMO it allows cherry picked results (not purposefully cherry picked) for builds that will do well in that ONE situation vs others that it may not do as well.

 

What I mean is there won't be much that runs from a tanker - neither for the brute - but by design doesn't draw aggro as well as a tanker - a scrapper or stalker will out damage them both, but there will be runners and other factors.

 

All will likely survive but that mission honestly favors tankers over the rest of the melee classes.

 

For a more controlled mission type test - I suggest @Galaxy Brain brutal mission simulator in AE - IMO gives a more accurate result of damage output in a contained mission environment.

 

Here are the problems with regards to most testing:

 

There are different goals with different tests and with different results often due to tester variables that aren't well accounted for.

 

It skews testing and claims, I think.

[BrandX]

1 hour ago, Sanguinesun said:

 

I can give you a hit in the direction for considering how:  400% cap'd recharge.

 

See, helping me already!  At 126.25% recharge and it's not even perma! 😞

[Sanguinesun]

15 minutes ago, BrandX said:

 

See, helping me already!  At 126.25% recharge and it's not even perma! 😞

 

Imagine if you slot your attacks with  force feedback +recharge for those powers (that's how folks get high recharge times in various sets with kb/kd in them).  Dont rely on  1-2 powers with them.  Get them in the AOE's so they have the easiest chances to trigger.    You'll literally have Cyclone pendulum and cleave up almost all the time to the point that'll you'll have to really start having to test how to have your best damage per the chain with burn and of course the MU patron aoe powers.

 

Brutes of course will still kill slightly faster with this but at least one of the attacks for axe for tankers now hits more targets than the brute version so it helps.

 

I've tested both the tank and brute versions on the beta server over the last couple of days using meh farms on the test server to see the kill speed differences.  Tanks still kill slower with the combo than brutes but I also have to qualify my testing to reflect that this was over the course of a few runs only with my fire aura choices and other choices based from live.

 

But I must caution that they're still not as fast as a rad/fire but that also may be due to my having the most comfortability with a rad/fire routine.

 

On live with other sets like rad or thorns, I can take less powers in the melee's to help optimize IO set choices and aoe choices in mu(as an example a build I use based on America's Angel's active rad/fire build 6 slots mu's lightning bolt, fences, ball, and static discharge.  

 

However due to the 3 aoe's with axe now that have somewhat a synergy as choices, the same builds used for other sets just can work as well and adjustments have to be made(at least at this point when I was making and I dont claim to be an expert by any means).  You'll sacrifice a smidge of damage in each of the axe powers for the proc for example but thats made back with doing more in your attack chain faster.  End use has to be managed though more since you attack faster/more.  However the build I'm using has a good end recovery to end use ratio (3.5 : 1.8)  so that helps.  Your most damaging powers in the chain will bethe MU powers, burn, then the axe chain in that order.  Cyclone really serves more as a mechanic than a damage power though at this point to me but we'll see.

 

 

Edited October 10, 2022 by Sanguinesun

[BrandX]

20 minutes ago, Sanguinesun said:

 

Imagine if you slot your attacks for knockback to knock down (where needed) and then slot force feedback +recharge for those powers as well(that's how folks get high recharge times in various sets with kb/kd in them).  Dont rely on  1-2 powers with them.  Get them in the AOE's so they have the easiest chances to trigger.    You'll literally have Cyclone pendulum and cleave up almost all the time to the point that'll you'll have to really start having to test how to have your best damage per the chain with burn and of course the MU patron aoe powers.

 

 

 

I do have one slotted in one attack, but to keep my Tank at those capped resists, I can't put all those Force Feed backs in all my attacks.  Though, I could replace one damage proc in Swoop with the +RCH.  Cleave I could take out the -Resist Proc (it's pretty weak) for +RCH too.

[Sanguinesun]

10 minutes ago, BrandX said:

 

I do have one slotted in one attack, but to keep my Tank at those capped resists, I can't put all those Force Feed backs in all my attacks.  Though, I could replace one damage proc in Swoop with the +RCH.  Cleave I could take out the -Resist Proc (it's pretty weak) for +RCH too.

 

If you're building for farming, you dont take all the attacks in a melee set. You focus on your aoes and perhaps 1 single target along with the buildup style power usually.

 

Most of the time when you take a power in a set as a farmer, its for putting IO's in it for bonuses vs necessarily using them.

 

Sometimes the most effective thing for improve a character(and it sounds counter intuitive) is not taking all the powers in its prim/secondary sets its recipe that everyone fine tunes differently between prim/sec, the pools, and the patron/epic choices.

 

The build I was speaking to that I've tested with for example is only using 5 powers from the axe(chop, build up, cyclone pendulum and cleave).  When the procs proc, those powers 1.6, 18(buildup), 2.8, 3, 3 seconds respectively.    I think you can see how that makes for the chain being up almost constantly.

 

And those attacks have the proc in them.  Due also to having global recharge in some defense and bonuses from the IO sets, even when the procs dont happen, I've 112% recharge with haste but since the procs in the 3 aoes can get the 400% without the single target, its pretty much ongoing if using the chain.

Edited October 10, 2022 by Sanguinesun

[BrandX]

2 minutes ago, Sanguinesun said:

 

If you're building for farming, you dont take all the attacks in a melee set. You focus on your aoes and perhaps 1 single target along with the buildup style power usually.

 

Most of the time when you take a power in a set as a farmer, its for putting IO's in it for bonuses vs necessarily using them.

 

Sometimes the most effective thing for improve a character(and it sounds counter intuitive) is not taking all the powers in its prim/secondary sets its recipe that everyone fine tunes differently between prim/sec, the pools, and the patron/epic choices.

 

I don't farm with my Tanker, but I'd like even better ST with her of course 🙂  However, I feel I do fine farming with my Ice/Fire brute

[Sanguinesun]

4 minutes ago, BrandX said:

 

I don't farm with my Tanker, but I'd like even better ST with her of course 🙂  However, I feel I do fine farming with my Ice/Fire brute

 

 

If your focus is on better ST with the tanker then  switch out pendulum for swoop or gash perhaps. They'd be up around 2s recharge each or so with 400%