Focused Feedback: Force Fields Revamp

[PoptartsNinja]

4 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

 

Would you be able to repeat that same test a few times each to cover RNG being hit?

Sure, absolutely. Give me a few minutes, we'll see how much variance there is.

 

Edit: And I'll see if running in close enough to maybe score a knockdown (against the knockdown and repel resistant Cimerorans) makes a difference.

Edited October 14, 2022 by PoptartsNinja

[Wavicle]

1 minute ago, PoptartsNinja said:

I tested that hypothesis.

 

I took Force Bubble (+Dispersion Bubble, Scorpion Shield, Tough, and Weave) into a 4 star ITF to see how long it took the first spawn to kill me.

 

Then I did the same with Repulsion Field + Dampening bubble (+Dispersion Bubble, Scorpion Shield, Tough, and Weave) with comparable IOs and level shifts.

 

 

 

Force Bubble survives nearly a full 8 seconds longer, which is enough for a fallen tank to pop a wakie, a break free, a blue, and get at least one toggle up provided they're on the ball and don't have a better self rez available to do it all faster.

 

Ok, yes, you'll lose some of this extremely niche use, but with the debuff resistances from Damping Bubble the tank will be less likely to die in the first place.

[PoptartsNinja]

49 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

 

Would you be able to repeat that same test a few times each to cover RNG being hit?

Here are three more runs of each.

 

To keep things as fair as I possibly could, I tried to run in to at least the edge of Repulsion Field's effective range for both tests even though Force Bubble doesn't need to. The only thing I didn't do (but probably should have) is quit and talk to Imperious between each run to reset the spawn's agro.

 

Force Bubble's survival times:

18:01 (original run from the first vid, tried to stay at the edge of Force Bubble's radius)
18:48 (tried keeping to the edge of Repulsion Field's radius)
16:88 (tried keeping to the edge of Repulsion Field's radius)
4:61 (tried keeping to the edge of Repulsion Field's radius)

 

Average TTD: 14:495

 

 

Repulsion Field's survival times

10:85 (original run from the first vid, tried to stay at the edge of Force Bubble's radius)
2:54 (tried keeping to the edge of Repulsion Field's radius)
4.33 (tried keeping to the edge of Repulsion Field's radius)
2.61 (tried keeping to the edge of Repulsion Field's radius)

 

Average TTD:  5:285

 

Admittedly, Romans are an extremely hard match-up for either power since (at least the bosses and higher) have 300% repel resistance in addition to their massive knockback resistance. This was the hardest scenario I could think of to make either power useful.

 

 

53 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

 

Ok, yes, you'll lose some of this extremely niche use, but with the debuff resistances from Damping Bubble the tank will be less likely to die in the first place.

They're not mutually exclusive. We could have both.

[Wavicle]

Just now, PoptartsNinja said:

They're not mutually exclusive. We could have both.

 

I don't know what great usage you were getting out of Repulsion Field before. For MOST people this will be an improvement over either or both powers, alone or separately, with or without KB2KD.

[PoptartsNinja]

15 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

 

I don't know what great usage you were getting out of Repulsion Field before. For MOST people this will be an improvement over either or both powers, alone or separately, with or without KB2KD.

Oh, I wasn't getting any use out of Repulsion Field before. That's Force Field's T7 knockback aura, it's a very redundant power that doesn't benefit the set very much (mostly because it's completely outclassed by Force Bubble). The live version is a strong contender for "worst power in the entire game" due to the way it eats 1% of your max end every time it scores a knockback and the way it stops working almost entirely if you slot it for Knockback to Knockdown (the knockback gets reduced to 0.0018). It's only really beaten by Whirlwind which has all of the same problems but a funnier animation. Both are completely outclassed in utility by the inherent (free) seismic shockwaves from Seismic Blast.

 

That's the power we kept. If a power had to go away, Repulsion Field is the one I'd have chosen.

 

 

The power we're losing is Force Bubble, which is great for making space (even against mobs that resist it), cramming spawns into corners for blasters to nuke, and keeping ambushes off the back line while the tanks and scrappers finish the front-line murder.

 

Imagine if you could toggle it between a repel and tractor, and pull everything into the tank?

 

 

Edited October 14, 2022 by PoptartsNinja
Edited for clarity

[Wavicle]

30 minutes ago, PoptartsNinja said:

The power we're losing is Force Bubble, which is great for making space (even against mobs that resist it), cramming spawns into corners for blasters to nuke, and keeping ambushes off the back line while the tanks and scrappers finish the front-line murder.

 

Imagine if you could toggle it between a repel and tractor, and pull everything into the tank?

 

 

 

imo the smaller size actually makes it better for most of those purposes.

I did in fact push for a Tractor ability to be added, but no dice yet. I certainly hope we get such an ability added to a couple more sets.

[electric_emu]

I just spent some time testing the on a FF/Seismic Defender.  FF holds a special place in my heart as it was my very first level 50 on live, so I was a bit... whelmed when I read the patch notes.  However, testing it pleasantly surprised me.  

 

Some thoughts:

 

Repulsion Bolt: Works as advertised, but feels a bit "busy" on a Defender (and by extension a Corruptor) that has an entire set of ranged attacks to use.  The -Res is quite nice when solo.  Ready to ship, I think.

 

Repulsion Field: Controversial, but a worthy replacement for Force Bubble in regular play.  I can understand that the loss of Force Bubble is a sore point in the instances it is useful on live.  But Repulsion Field does its job very well in standard door missions.  The ability to disable the repel with a KB2KD is a nice touch, offering some level of customization that Force Bubble and the live iteration of Repulsion Field lack.  It's also nice that Repulsion Field is no longer completely redundant.

 

Force Bomb:  I love this power.  Excellent debuff, excellent crowd control, and a fantastic place for procs (have you considered renaming it Proc Bomb lol).  Unlike Repulsion Bolt, it feels right at home alongside ranged attacks in the blast set, probably thanks to its new speedy cast time.  It allows you to soften up a mob, laugh off what's left of the alpha (thanks Dispersion Bubble), and delete a group in short order.

 

Dampening Bubble:  I'm on the fence about this.  I tested it on "difficult" enemies groups - Carnies and Arachnos - and definitely noticed a difference when it was active vs when it wasn't.  But its cooldown and stationary nature make it a bit cumbersome to use.  It's not quite ready for every spawn (even when slotted for recharge and a healthy amount of global recharge), but it's also available just often enough that it seems to encourage "casual" use.  So it just feels inconsistent, like I'm either spamming it and then don't have it when I need it or saving it and almost never using it.  And it's definitely a power that should be carefully deployed.  Reducing the effectiveness of debuffs needs to happen before you're debuffed.  So it's not like you can "save it for an emergency" because you really should use it proactively.  Maybe this is better on a Controller, where you can cycle your mitigation tools (AoE CCs) and Dampening Bubble to effectively handle group after group, but that's not really an option for Defenders and Corruptors for the most part.

 

I would propose either increasing the strength of Dampening Bubble's effects (possibly increasing its recharge to compensate, making it truly a power you "save for the boss"), or making it a toggle (possibly toning down the values a bit, giving you a stable but less potent benefit).  As is, it's just kind of unwieldy.  The idea overall is good though.

 

Personal Force Field:  I'd say leave as is.  It's a good escape power and decent mule for uniques.  Maybe let it accept resistance sets too?

 

Detention Field:  The idea is fine, just needs to not be so punishing to use.  I'd suggest what others have: make it a time-limited toggle (max 30s?) so you have the freedom to shut it off. It'd still be a niche power, but much more user-friendly.

           

 

 

Edited October 15, 2022 by electric_emu
clarification

[gameboy1234]

2 hours ago, electric_emu said:

Detention Field:  The idea is fine, just needs to not be so punishing to use.  I'd suggest what others have: make it a time-limited toggle (max 30s?) so you have the freedom to shut it off. It'd still be a niche power, but much more user-friendly.

 

If the devs want to keep DF as is, then this is definitely the change I'd ask for.  Maybe the total time could be messed with.  Like make it a toggle that costs 2 end/s, with no time limit.  So you're effectively limited at low levels by its high cost, but at higher levels as you slot more and get more global EndRedux, you're able to run it for much longer.

 

[WindDemon21]

2 hours ago, Wavicle said:

 

imo the smaller size actually makes it better for most of those purposes.

I did in fact push for a Tractor ability to be added, but no dice yet. I certainly hope we get such an ability added to a couple more sets.

You did? I didn't see it but definitely did too lol,. Also side note hoping, nay PRAYING they add it to tornado which makes sense it should have it anyway,

 

As I've stated again, what it is now, just isn't enough as a tier 9, but also per it's recharge. If its going to remain as it is I'd say easily to at least lower it's base recharge down to 60s or even lower, working like disruption arrow. But bar none, if it had the ticcing absorption, and also, maybe even MORE importantly tbh, adding a hefty -speed/jump/tp/fly to it, would value it a lot more, especially with the current repulsion field. Because then, it helps keep the mobs in place better, while you use the, now MUCH smaller radius of repulsion field's repel, to push them towards the center (versus having the slow in repulsion field's aura itself).

 

This is why, hurricane on it's own, is REALLY bad trying to manuever a mob, because they run around you changing the directional vector of the repel, and constantly getting spread around before the pulsing tic applies and wears off. This is why you NEED slows from snow storm/freezing rain, or an aoe immobilize in the case of controllers, to keep them from moving around WHILE you position them where you want to with the repel.

 

Hence again, add -speed/fly/jump/tp to it, and some ticcing absorb. Though, I'd forgo the absorb IF it got that singularity pull in too :P, though generally, the absorb with the slow added would make the power about perfect.

[WindDemon21]

3 hours ago, Wavicle said:

 

imo the smaller size actually makes it better for most of those purposes.

I did in fact push for a Tractor ability to be added, but no dice yet. I certainly hope we get such an ability added to a couple more sets.

Shoulda quoted this in my just a second ago post, but, the smaller size is not better on it's own when you know what you're doing. HOWEVER, the smaller size WITH the -speed added to dampening field, would be better. It would be a BIG help, to making these powers synergize better together to help offset the loss of force bubble. (that said, some -speed to repulsion fields aura wouldn't hurt either to to make it's "keep off me" work better too. It woudln't have to be as strong as what I'm suggesting for dampening field 'quicksand/tar patch levels')

 

Again, that's all for positioning to help make up for the loss of force bubble. The power itself still feels somewhat anemic at that recharge, and still suggest the ticcing absorb be added. It woudln't have to be anything of an overpowering value, but enough to make a difference, and allow slotting in the heal sets for some end reduction, rech, bonuses etc. (edit: for stats most would deem useful, and not situational, and we'd all be in agreement, the slow sets for this, are just awful too)

Edited October 15, 2022 by WindDemon21

[Super Atom]

7 hours ago, electric_emu said:

Detention Field:  The idea is fine, just needs to not be so punishing to use.  I'd suggest what others have: make it a time-limited toggle (max 30s?) so you have the freedom to shut it off. It'd still be a niche power, but much more user-friendly.         

 

 

 

 

100% this

Edited October 15, 2022 by Super Atom

[Player-1]

Hi all, funny enough we actually did have it as a toggle power briefly during internal testing. However, in doing so it lost as much as it gained in terms of its usage and applicable niche. If its a toggle, it no longer becomes possible to lock down multiple targets nor does it have the same uptime due to the recharge happening on the toggle dropping instead of on activation. We came to the conclusion that its toggle form was just a change, not a net improvement. 

 

This is a power we have an eye on for the future for sure.

[Sarn]

1 hour ago, Player-1 said:

Hi all, funny enough we actually did have it as a toggle power briefly during internal testing. However, in doing so it lost as much as it gained in terms of its usage and applicable niche. If its a toggle, it no longer becomes possible to lock down multiple targets nor does it have the same uptime due to the recharge happening on the toggle dropping instead of on activation. We came to the conclusion that its toggle form was just a change, not a net improvement. 

 

This is a power we have an eye on for the future for sure.

If it is a wash, I'd much prefer that it be a toggle, consistent with the rest of the powerset and the "set and forget" aspect of FF that I so enjoy. 

[Wavicle]

2 hours ago, Sarn said:

If it is a wash, I'd much prefer that it be a toggle, consistent with the rest of the powerset and the "set and forget" aspect of FF that I so enjoy. 

It’s not a wash. It’s WORSE as a toggle.

[WindDemon21]

6 hours ago, Player-1 said:

Hi all, funny enough we actually did have it as a toggle power briefly during internal testing. However, in doing so it lost as much as it gained in terms of its usage and applicable niche. If its a toggle, it no longer becomes possible to lock down multiple targets nor does it have the same uptime due to the recharge happening on the toggle dropping instead of on activation. We came to the conclusion that its toggle form was just a change, not a net improvement. 

 

This is a power we have an eye on for the future for sure.

I mean, FOR what it is, I do think it's better as a click, however, the problem is the power itself. IF intended to keep it as is, for one it doesn't take sets. That is one of the worst part of ANY power that can't accept anything. That's why adding a tiny end drain/defense debuff/to hit debuff has been one o the main things added to a lot of powers. Not that the value is anything major, but to allow sets so you can get bonuses on the power, but more importantly, get somewhat good acc/end/rech on the power in fewer slots.

 

We've REALLY been needing a "standard buff/debuff" IO set for powers like this, sonic siphon, siphon power, fulcrum shift, disruption aura, corrosive enzymes from nature etc. So we can get acc/end/rech stats, procs, and bonuses on these powers. I'd really hope to see this implemented by next patch. That and fix the slow sets and change the stupefy stun kb proc to a kb-kd/extra disorient chance proc. (kb-kd for powers like hand clap, force of thunder, and lightning clap so you can still get the 6th bonus of the stupefy set), and make the purple stun proc something better too.

[Sarn]

8 hours ago, Wavicle said:

It’s not a wash. It’s WORSE as a toggle.

I don't read that. There are two specifics that are given that are worse, but the broader context indicates a wash. 

"It lost as much as it gained in terms of its usage and applicable niche"
"Its toggle form was just a change, not a net improvement"

 

 

Edited October 16, 2022 by Sarn

[Spectre7878]

So my main on live is a Gravity/Force Field Controller. I have some mix feeling on these changes. My thoughts are as followed

 

Personal Force Field - It would be nice if this worked like Supeior invisibility. It can be left on but lose some of the defensive while in battle.

Deflection and Insulation Shield - I think these are good as is

Repulsion Bolt - The -Res is a good addition to the power, i always thought this power could have more damage though.

Detention Field - I like this power, i know teams do not. I think if i acted like it does but make it so the caster can turn it off at any point.

Dispersion Bubble - This is a good fix to this power, but i never understood why there is no sleep protection and Knockback. Faraday Cage gives (Held, Stun, Immo, Sleep, Knockback/up, and TP) I really think this power should have the same buffs as Faraday.

Repulsion Field - I used the original power over Force bubble all the time. I slotted a KB to KD proc and if baddies got to close splat, they fall down and go boom. Now with them together I cant do that. My singularity can pull them in because of the merge.

Force Bomb - This makes me angry. There was no reason to lower the damage that much. Please put damage back to what it was. The rest of it is fine.

Damping Bubble - I like there is a new bubble in the mix, though being the set is defense to the core i think this bubble should add more defense and or absorb. Also add mez protection of Sleep, Knockback, Repel, Confuse, and Terrorized to off set the fact that dispersion bubble doesnt have these.

 

[Wavicle]

29 minutes ago, Spectre7878 said:

Repulsion Field - I used the original power over Force bubble all the time. I slotted a KB to KD proc and if baddies got to close splat, they fall down and go boom. Now with them together I cant do that.

It should still be knockdown with no repel if you put in kb2kd

[Spectre7878]

34 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

It should still be knockdown with no repel if you put in kb2kd

I tried putting the KBtoKD in Repulsion Field and they dont knockdown at all. I stood in the middle of a mob and they dont fall down. On live they do with the Proc

[Spectre7878]

I use to use wormhole to bring a mob in and the repulsion to knock them down to the point where they could not stand, and now the knockdown proc does not make them fall like they use to =(

 

Please fix this devs

[Wavicle]

8 minutes ago, Spectre7878 said:

I tried putting the KBtoKD in Repulsion Field and they dont knockdown at all. I stood in the middle of a mob and they dont fall down. On live they do with the Proc

the kd chance is very low, but if they are truly not getting knocked down at all then that is a bug and should be reported as such.

[Wavicle]

AoE kb "patches" (including Repulsion Field) become only 10% chance with kb2kd, live and test, unless there is a bug. Bonfire, for example, is bugged, for now.

Edited October 16, 2022 by Wavicle

[Spectre7878]

Is the KB/KB Proc supposed to lower the MAG?

 

If I take the Proc off i got 8 mag

Once i put the proc back on it goes from 8 to 4 mag

 

In Beta it with Sudden Acceleration Knock back to Knockdown

Knock: Base 6.23 Value -36.62 (-687.6%)

 

In Live

Knock: Base 6.23 Value -41.38 (-764.0%)

 

Maybe I am wrong or not understanding

 

That doesnt make much sense..

 

[Wavicle]

10 minutes ago, Spectre7878 said:

Is the KB/KB Proc supposed to lower the MAG?

 

If I take the Proc off i got 8 mag

Once i put the proc back on it goes from 8 to 4 mag

 

In Beta it with Sudden Acceleration Knock back to Knockdown

Knock: Base 6.23 Value -36.62 (-687.6%)

 

In Live

Knock: Base 6.23 Value -41.38 (-764.0%)

 

Maybe I am wrong or not understanding

 

That doesnt make much sense..

 

 

Knockback with Magnitude lower than 1 is Knockdown. The way the KB2KD enhancements work is they lower the magnitude by like 1000, so any KB the power does will become KD.

On "patch" powers, such as Bonfire or Repulsion Field, adding KB2KD both lowers the magnitude (turning KB to KD) and ALSO lowers the chance from whatever it was to 10%.

[Wavicle]

So, with the new Repulsion Field, a good strategy is to position yourself facing into a corner and then Wormhole the enemies between you and the corner. Repulsion Field will immediately pin them into the corner.