Focused Feedback: Force Fields Revamp

[WindDemon21]

So maybe, as is with some -speed, and absorb added, maybe -damage (depending on values of those of course, with the proccing absorb being the big useful addition, and -speed being of a good value, could even do without the -damage, but even if it was like 10%, would still be a nice little addtion to help)

[Wavicle]

Well, it's going live like this I expect, if they see the set continuing to underperform maybe they'll add something later.

[WindDemon21]

1 hour ago, Wavicle said:

Well, it's going live like this I expect, if they see the set continuing to underperform maybe they'll add something later.

Ughhh :/. If we're so sure of that, is there an eta then of when this is hitting live then that i missed? I feel like these beta discussion just started last week. Seems awful for a whole page to go live.

[Sarn]

Hello, copied this from another thread, as I didn't know this thread existed. 

 

I wanted to say that I am very appreciative of the attention Force Field (FF) is getting. I was excited to read about the changes and jumped on Test. I honestly feel like someone is trying too hard with this set. One of the beauties of FF is it's passive play ease, similar to Sonic. And some of the changes appear to remove key unique strengths of the set, such as force bubble for positioning. Additionally, some of the changes make me feel like there is a bleed toward sameness of powersets. I, for one, don't want that with this lovely and unique powerset. I can't help it. I don't like the proposed changes thematically or mechanically. 

I would have looked at it this way, more of a DDR-based and absorption-based upgrade. 

 

1. Personal Force Field: I think this power deserves a 95% DDR and perhaps a lower enhanced max value and it is fine. Yes, it's an escape power, but that's part of the uniqueness of the set. Adding the DDR here allows for incorporation of the DDR-themed bonus which I think is central and critical to the set (more on that later). Yes, it will also allow some "weak" defender "tanking", but eventually cascading defense debuffs will catch up with you in higher content. In lower content w/o defense debuff attacks, it doesn't really matter anyway.  

 

2. Deflection Field: Add a small absorption amount at application that does not stack (maybe 10%).

 

3. Force Bolt: No change to this power. FF doesn't need a -resistance that makes it feel like everything else. The beauty of this power is its high knockback value and rapid use, which can come in handy as knockback resistance is being raised for bosses and others. If anything, give it a slight chance for a stun. 

 

4. Insulation Shield: Add a small absorption amount at application that does not stack (maybe 10% ).

 

5. Detention Field: No proposed change although the idea of life steal here is pretty entertaining. 

 

6. Dispersion Bubble: Keep the 15 second lingering effect that is proposed. Add the DDR protection and the -to hit/perception and -regen protections proposed for Dampening Bubble, which I really don't like as it makes the set feel clunky. Apply the 15 second lingering effect to these too. Drop the enemy debuffs, as there are enough sets that do that and it feels like infringement. The protections offered here are pretty rare. That should suffice and maybe is a suitable tradeoff for making this a toggle that follows the caster rather than a placed bubble (that can be moved with sufficient recharge). Also drop the slow/recharge protection. 

 

7. Repulsion field: Keep as on live but add a modest pulsing application of absorb that can build to perhaps 20%. 

 

8. Repulsion Bomb: Keep the QoL change for activation time but otherwise make it the same as live. The -resist is not necessary nor thematic. 

 

9. Force Bubble: Restore to live version, including endurance cost per target, except add a second pulsing absorb power that can stack with repulsion shield. This is a very situational but powerful and unique ability. It SHOULD be expensive to use!

 

Thanks for reading!

 

[roleki]

On 10/12/2022 at 11:29 AM, Captain Powerhouse said:

Personal Force Field has not been touched due to it being somewhat popular, but we still brainstorming on this power while trying to retain its utility around.

 

Maybe make PFF an auto that kicks in like the Preventive Medicine proc, give it a 30s duration, 20s Only Affecting Self,  10s 'Rage Crash'?  Nine times out of ten, I don't get to fire off PFF when it would have maybe saved my butt.  As an auto, would be a good place to hide Kismet and so on, as well.

 

20 hours ago, Wavicle said:

I believe the Damping Field will turn out to be more useful than we are giving out credit for right now.

 

That's very likely, people probably aren't going to notice "hey, my recharge isn't AS effected as it usually is when facing X" or what have you.  Just at the end of the mission, it will maybe have gone smoother had Damping Field not been employed.  Still, if I'm effectively losing Force Bubble, I would have preferred getting something I didn't have to explain to other people what it does, and convince them that it really IS active right now, with the only indication to any of us being that the power is still recharging so it must be up, somewhere.

 

And in general, I still say, scrap the -Res and add a thimbleful of DDR to the three shields.  It's ridiculous that FF didn't do DDR at all before, and now it gets it in its T9.  Dark gets it sooner, and far stronger.  Dark isn't about defense.  FF is.

[WindDemon21]

1 hour ago, roleki said:

I would have preferred getting something I didn't have to explain to other people what it does, and convince them that it really IS active right now

*chants* PULL IN PULL IN PULL IN *chants* XD

 

Also, as a tier 9, for that ALL it's doing as well TBQFH it's not enough, is too late, and recharge is too long for that being all it does.

 

As mentioned, pulsing absorb would be best to add to the power, maybe some -damage/-speed, that and maybe add the pull in but i woudln't hold my breath on the pull in with it's big radius. But absorb, -speed, and -damage definitely. (I'd say, at minimum though the absorb, and the -speed). The -speed, cause with repulsion field, it's easier/better for that slow in a field that you can "kiss" with the repel versus the slow in the repel, only working when you're actively on them with it. It's good for protection to have the -speed in repulsion field, but better for field control to have it in the location power. So absorb, and -speed (like quicksand/tar patch levels) at minimum should be added.

[Wavicle]

Dark is about -Tohit which IS basically Defense only it gets hit by the purple patch.

 

 And you’re not losing Force Bubble. It got made smaller which makes it more useful because it’s more maneuverable.

[WindDemon21]

6 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

Dark is about -Tohit which IS basically Defense only it gets hit by the purple patch.

 

 And you’re not losing Force Bubble. It got made smaller which makes it more useful because it’s more maneuverable.

Which is still a loss lol. A radius loss.

[roleki]

8 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

Dark is about -Tohit which IS basically Defense only it gets hit by the purple patch.

 

 And you’re not losing Force Bubble. It got made smaller which makes it more useful because it’s more maneuverable.

 

If I take Repulsion Field, which I always do, and slot it with KB:KD, which I always do, I've lost Force Bubble.  So as I mentioned, I've effectively lost Force Bubble. 

 

Granted, we're not talking a huge loss, but it IS a loss, and what replaced it may or may not be worth it.  My suspicion is that Dampening Field will be a worthwhile replacement, but without a strong visual cue, even the caster won't be entirely sure if they're standing in it, and unless people live in City of Data, they won't realize that that Hurricane isn't flooring their -ToHit quite as much.  

 

And while I am as big a proponent of ToHit and -ToHit as you're likely to find in this game, I cannot subscribe to "Dark should have DDR at 20 because it does -ToHit, and Force Field should have DDR at 38 because it does +Defense" like some people apparently are.

[Wavicle]

Well you should stop slotting KB2KD in Repulsion. It’s far more useful as a smaller version of Force Bubble.

[Wavicle]

And it’s not 38. Read the patch notes.

[roleki]

4 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

And it’s not 38. Read the patch notes.

 

Have read them, have played the game for better than a decade.  Well aware that for all of the playable history of the game, T9 in the secondary was selectable at 38.  Also well aware that this will change when the patch hits. 

 

But the patch hasn't hit yet.

 

 

[WindDemon21]

11 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

Well you should stop slotting KB2KD in Repulsion. It’s far more useful as a smaller version of Force Bubble.

I mean, that entirely depends how you play with it. With kb-kd, and no repel then, and lessened chance of knockdown (unless ARE they making it the same kd chance then and not nerfed chance with this change?)

 

Cause otherwise, the kd chance with a kb-kd in repulsion field is fairly poor, especially with the radius of the kb aura (not repel)

 

So it would suck to lose both the repel, and then only have a small radius of kd with much less chance to do that kd. Again depends how you use it, but that's what sucks most about this  change. You can't use repulsion AS the small radius kd if you want, AND have the aoe repel from force bubble. So you kinda get screwed either way. Kinda making it really only valualabe WITHOUT the kb-kd, either as a keep away power, or to use like hurricane to position the mobs.

[PoptartsNinja]

43 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

And you’re not losing Force Bubble. It got made smaller which makes it more useful because it’s more maneuverable.

 

Force Bubble and Repulsion Field are two different powers with two different use cases. We're getting a buff to repulsion field in exchange for loosing the unique use cases Force Bubble had.

[Wavicle]

6 minutes ago, roleki said:

 

Have read them, have played the game for better than a decade.  Well aware that for all of the playable history of the game, T9 in the secondary was selectable at 38.  Also well aware that this will change when the patch hits. 

 

But the patch hasn't hit yet.

 

 

but these powers will not change until it does and so you will Never have to wait until 38 for this

[Wavicle]

Force Bubble has no real use aside from aggroing multiple spawns. The new Repulsion Field is a buff to both powers.

[roleki]

5 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

but these powers will not change until it does and so you will Never have to wait until 38 for this

Fair point, but... Dark will get DDR sooner too once Page 5 hits.  I mean, I guess I should be happy FF is getting DDR at all, right?

 

Also, just because YOU found no use for Force Bubble doesn't mean other people haven't.  It's especially useful under P4, with the aggro changes.  But it's on its way out, so, who gives a fuck?

Edited October 14, 2022 by roleki

[PoptartsNinja]

1 minute ago, Wavicle said:

Force Bubble has no real use aside from aggroing multiple spawns. The new Repulsion Field is a buff to both powers.

Force Bubble was useful for keeping Rikti away from bomb planters on the MSR, for cramming spawns into corners, making breathing room so people can pop awakens, and for holding surprise ambushes far enough away from a team that they can clean up what they're fighting before getting overwhelmed by adds. It's a very powerful tool that's difficult to use well.

 

Repulsion Field might be able to keep Rikti away from bomb planters on the MSR provided there isn't much latency and you don't mind eating a lot of fire yourself in the process.

[Wavicle]

2 hours ago, roleki said:

Fair point, but... Dark will get DDR sooner too once Page 5 hits.  I mean, I guess I should be happy FF is getting DDR at all, right?

sets are, in theory, balanced against each other in Full, not one for one with each power.  DDR in Dark has no effect on FF. And Damping Bubble will STACK with Fade, even for people at the DDR cap.

Edited October 14, 2022 by Wavicle

[Wavicle]

2 minutes ago, PoptartsNinja said:

Force Bubble was useful for keeping Rikti away from bomb planters on the MSR, for cramming spawns into corners, making breathing room so people can pop awakens, and for holding surprise ambushes far enough away from a team that they can clean up what they're fighting before getting overwhelmed by adds. It's a very powerful tool that's difficult to use well.

 

Repulsion Field might be able to keep Rikti away from bomb planters on the MSR provided there isn't much latency and you don't mind eating a lot of fire yourself in the process.

Yea it’ll still be fine for that stuff.

[Wavicle]

Also keep in mind Damping bubbles -Special Debuff means it will help even those who end up Capped on DDR or other resistances within the bubble.

[Wavicle]

1 hour ago, roleki said:

 It's especially useful under P4, with the aggro changes. 

 

Both Force Bubble and Repulsion Field (new or old) have an AoE cap of 16. I guess the aggro changes altered some behavior, but it still can't hit more than 16 at a time.

[Galaxy Brain]

With all the talk about Damping Bubble's effectiveness, I decided to hit the lab and see what it actually does:

 

Without the bubble on for my MM, we see the Galaxy Minion hits me for -15% rech, and -2.15mph movement speed.

 

 

 

 

 

 

With the bubble on, I am hit for 11.11% -Rech, and seemingly -1.59mph movement speed. 

 

What is deceptive about this though is that Recharge value:

If you just eyeball the Combat Attributes window, the numbers may appear worse than they appear due to the nature of stacking a -Strength Debuff and a +Debuff Resist power. 

 

 

Resistance does not show up as directly, but if you pop those values above into a calculator: 11.11 / 15 = .7405 (roughly), matching the resistance. 

 

If we look at the actual value of the -Speed debuff we can see it is being lowered by about ~26% as well, before we resist it by ANOTHER 26%:

 

 

My running speed should be 24.34mph without debuffs. 23.16 is only -1.18mph lower, not -1.59.

 

1.18 / 1.59 = ~0.74

 

So what is happening here is that it is basically Reverse Power-Boosting Enemies!

 

 

Breaking this down with 3 slotted SO values of Def for DDR:

 

 

With both values working in combination, a Defender is giving more like 68-55% Debuff resistances depending on the difficulty 

[PoptartsNinja]

2 hours ago, Wavicle said:

Yea it’ll still be fine for that stuff.

I tested that hypothesis.

 

I took Force Bubble (+Dispersion Bubble, Scorpion Shield, Tough, and Weave) into a 4 star ITF to see how long it took the first spawn to kill me.

 

Then I did the same with Repulsion Field + Dampening bubble (+Dispersion Bubble, Scorpion Shield, Tough, and Weave) with comparable IOs and level shifts.

 

 

 

Force Bubble survives nearly a full 8 seconds longer, which is enough for a fallen tank to pop a wakie, a break free, a blue, and get at least one toggle up provided they're on the ball and don't have a better self rez available to do it all faster.

[Galaxy Brain]

1 minute ago, PoptartsNinja said:

I tested that hypothesis.

 

I took Force Bubble (+Dispersion Bubble, Scorpion Shield, Tough, and Weave) into a 4 star ITF to see how long it took the first spawn to kill me.

 

Then I did the same with Repulsion Field + Dampening bubble (+Dispersion Bubble, Scorpion Shield, Tough, and Weave) with comparable IOs and level shifts.

 

 

 

Force Bubble survives nearly a full 8 seconds longer, which is enough for a fallen tank to pop a wakie, a break free, a blue, and get at least one toggle up provided they're on the ball and don't have a better self rez available to do it all faster.

 

Would you be able to repeat that same test a few times each to cover RNG being hit?