Officially Unofficial Hopefully Weekly Discussion #1: Overall Task Force/Strike Force Design

[Yaliw]

7 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

 

 

where do you get this from?

and in relation to which server?

 

 

where are you all getting this from?

 

I'm a grumpy grump

 

 

Low level characters have fewer slots available and some people don't fully slot using SO's at that time period due to how fast they become obsolete.

 

 

[SeraphimKensai]

What would the Shadow Shard TFs look like if they were revamped?

[Yaliw]

51 minutes ago, SeraphimKensai said:

What would the Shadow Shard TFs look like if they were revamped?

 

I'd remove the hunt missions for sure or at least most of them- maybe replace them with a kill-all or two.

 

I like the Shadow Shard taskforces and would like to see hard mode versions of at least 1 of them some day.

[PeregrineFalcon]

53 minutes ago, SeraphimKensai said:

What would the Shadow Shard TFs look like if they were revamped?

Awesome.

 

They would look awesome!

[mrdeeds7]

Recluse's Generals should be the main villians of the TFC TFs culminating with Recluse. Tier 2 villians like Clockwork king should be 2 tier heroes TF baddies. If there was a Mirror Spirit TF eg Dr. Vaz could be the end baddy. At the end of Manticore you should show down with Mako. 

 

I think the one thing that could really be tuned up with TFs is the culminating battle. A couple TFs don't even have one. The Marshall Blitz fight in who will die to me is a great road map for more interesting battles. Mutli-stage fights with puzzles or side objectives. 

 

I think it would be cool if through the course of the missions, for all the tfs it was more apparent what the over arching plot of the adventure was. Aeon and ITF do a good job of this, Synapse to me is the worst example. It's like what is this about, or than killing robots? Better story telling = more engaging comic adventures

[TalynDerre]

If I was put in charge of revamping TFs, the three things I'd look at were length, the fact that only the team leader really 'gets' the story, and adding some 'boss mechanics' to keep players on their toes.

 

Length: Penny Yin is too short.  All the Shadow Shard ones are too long.  I'd argue even that the ASF is too long - it's super cool, but it really feels like it could have been TWO task forces.  A TF should take between 45 and 90 minutes - long enough to feel like a real, self-contained story, but short enough that I can actually play it through between when I put my kid to bed and when I need to go to bed.

 

The second part - tell the story NOT through the wall-o-text mission briefings, but in-mission.  It doesn't have to be a cutscene.  NPC setpieces in maps that explain what they are doing, why you are trying to stop them/assist them, and then adding enough clues and little explanatory text boxes that a person feels like they know why they are here would be enough.  The ASF does this pretty well.  Even the Incarnate Raids, which I don't otherwise love, does a good job of getting everyone up to speed about what the heck is going on.

 

Finally - boss gimmicks.  They are great, I love them.  Lucky for us, the newest TFs are already doing this.  Posi 1, the Reichsman fights, the Battle Maiden Fight in the Apex TF, and of course the ASF all have fun boss gimmicks.  I want to see more of those.  The most important thing about them is that they should give players something to do in the boss fights besides 'stand back from the tank and then hit it till it dies.'  Secondary targets, telegraphed AoE attacks, environmental hazards, or even just the boss making himself temporarily invulnerable and running to a different room for a different set-piece would all be fun.

 

Here's a possible boss gimmick - let's say that there is a new TF where you have to fight Nano-Malta, Malta Operatives who have been juiced up with Battle Maiden's nanobots.  The final boss is against Director 11.  The fight takes place in a large, outdoor 'arena' type map.  The boss has three stages - the first stage is a standard 'tank and spank', where you have to reduce his AV health bar to zero, while also fighting off the occasional wave of regular Malta bad guys.  Basically, think of the Director 11 fight from the Tin Mage TF.

 

Once he hits zero health (or 5%, or whatever), Director 11 activates his failsafe, becomes temporarily invulnerable, and calls down an airstrike on himself.  But the airstrike doesn't drop a bomb, or napalm - it drops the blue nanobots from the Battle Maiden fight.  The players have to evacuate the bombed-out area before they get eaten by the bots, and then dodge the airstrikes while fighting off Malta drones.

 

Finally, once that stage is done, you go back to fighting Director 11, but now he's piloting a special, nano-tech infused Zeus Titan.  The players have to whittle down his health bar again, still dodging the blue goo, but the matter is further complicated by the fact that Malta has now put snipers with nanotech super-rifles on the balconies around the arena.  When someone is targets by the sniper, they are given a crosshair warning and have to put a pillar or other obstacle between them and the sniper, otherwise they get hit with a HUGE damage hit that can one-shot anything other than a topped-off Tanker or Brute.  The players have to choose between playing 'duck the rifle shot' all throughout the fight or sending one or two damage dealers away from the AV fight so they can take out the snipers.

 

That is, admittedly, a complicated example, but a complex, multi-stage boss fight like that would really make a TF memorable and fun to play.  Especially if there are multiple possible paths to success, so it improves the replay value.

[SeraphimKensai]

5 minutes ago, TalynDerre said:

The second part - tell the story NOT through the wall-o-text mission briefings, but in-mission.  It doesn't have to be a cutscene.  NPC setpieces in maps that explain what they are doing, why you are trying to stop them/assist them, and then adding enough clues and little explanatory text boxes that a person feels like they know why they are here would be enough. 

As a D&D player and occasional DM for a one off, I really like this idea. Anything to making the story more immersive into the missions is a good thing. Sure we don't want a 15 minute cutscenes where I have enough time to change the baby's diaper, let the dog outside, and grab myself a fresh beer, but adding in some strategic NPC chatter and it can really help further the narrative.

[TheZag]

Speaking of shadow shard TFs,  a potential future topic could be about the under utilization of the shadow shard zones.  The contact missions just kinda end and leave you hanging with the TFs left to inadequately fill the gap.

 

[Troo]

It would be great to see more details on preferences or areas that need attention. Examples:

• Level Range
• Trial Purpose
• Length
• Story Type
• Enemy Groups

Should we have more trials which can be relatively short or more sweeping epic strike forces? Something in between?

 

 

Personally, I could appreciate a series of trials or strike forces which reinforce expectations at given points as players advance in the game. It's not sexy.

 

 

for reference

Trial (https://archive.paragonwiki.com/wiki/Trial)

A Trial is a type of mission arc that is similar to a Task Force/Strike Force but with fewer missions. Trials contain unusual encounters with enemies that require a high level of cooperation between team members to conquer. Special rewards are given at the end of trials, such as respecifications or enhancements that affect multiple attributes. Most contain a timed finale mission.

 

Task Force/Strike Force

A Strike Force is a large-scale story arc in City of Villains. Strike forces are equivalent to Task Forces in City of Heroes.

Strike forces are similar to Story Arcs in that they are a set of missions that tell a story. Strike forces are started by talking to a strike force contact, which is typically a unique NPC or signature villain. Unlike story arcs, strike force contacts cannot be outleveled. Strike forces can be started at any time, provided a team meets the strike force's requirements, and characters may run them more than once.

 

 

[Yaliw]

Guys! 

 

Hard mode DFB for level 50+3's

 

Gotta defeat the HYPER HYDRA

[SeraphimKensai]

1 hour ago, Yaliw said:

Guys! 

 

Hard mode DFB for level 50+3's

 

Gotta defeat the HYPER HYDRA

You might be joking but I wouldn't mind hard mode lvl 50 versions of all the task forces, but that's a monumental task to scale NPC groups up to lvl 50+ and give them enough power to be challenging for a team.

 

Could it be done? Absolutely. Just would be a lot of work, but I think it would be cool.

[TheZag]

I feel like DFB was only added so people could actually see the hydra head since sewer trial was hardly ran back in the day.  My guess also is that more hard modes are a good possibility since they already hit up an existing TF.  I wouldnt ever participate on a synapse hard mode though unless it was split into 2 or shortened.  I dont have 7 hours for a hard mode synapse in its current form.

 

[Redletter]

On 10/26/2022 at 9:51 AM, SeraphimKensai said:

Week 1: How do you feel about taskforce/strikeforce design? Throughout the years we've been presented with a number of task forces and revisions to them. What do you like about task forces in general? What don't you like? What do you think about the zone transitions between missions? What's a good amount of missions for them to be able to tell a story while not being a torture exercise in redundancy? Anyone have any guilty pleasure Taskforce/Strike Force they like to play?

 

 

Also I'm open to suggestions for next week's topic assuming the fuzz doesn't shut us down.

 

So, I feel like a lot of complaints about task force comes from the "early" blueside task forces that have avoided a revamp. Penny Yin (formerly Sister Psyche), Miss Liberty (formerly statesmen), Lady Grey, and the NEW Posi 1 & 2 are fine, as are most of the red side TFs. It's really the TFS like Synapse, Citadel, and Numina, these TFs that focus more on sleep inducing minutia that amounts to nothing beyond a terrible inconvenience for everyone involved -- especially for people who DON'T have the routine committed to memory.

 

All these TFs that boil down to escalating volumes of street sweeping, punctuated by schitzophrenic sojourns across the game world, just to partake in kill alls, that then, lead back to the street sweeping.

 

It's partially why I try to get the strike force badges by doing the red side equivalents, since theyre marginally better designed and it's generally easier to get around the isles simply due to the nature of the ferry transit system.

 

I haven't played the Aeon strike force, but I've heard good things about it. I have played Market Crash, and Market Crash is wonderfully focused and mercifully brief.

 

Honestly? In an ideal world, the devs would make 'revamped' versions of the problematic TFs, and we can just access them through the Wharf same as Market Crash, if actually REPLACING the tfs is a problem, just make a NEW tf, and let it award the badge the old tf awarded (and maybe NEW rewards! Like a random enhancement from the titular character's same-named enhancement set...) This way people CAN play the old TF for posterity's sake without needing to run through Oro, and, we give Kalisti Wharf more purpose. Make it an epicenter for reimagined content. There's even like, a HUGE "Hall of Justice"-esque building that the Phalanx crew could be positioned in to hand out these new TFs!

 

It won't happen, but, I can dream.

[Redletter]

13 hours ago, Yaliw said:

Guys! 

 

Hard mode DFB for level 50+3's

 

Gotta defeat the HYPER HYDRA

 

You joke, but a run back through the sewers, with each faction getting proper archvillain treatment would be pretty cool.

 

Tinder gets girl-friend's from hell to help him out.

The Vaz doctor gets a couple HUGE eidolon bodyguards, a HORDE of embalmed minions, and one of those machines from the Matt Hushaby arc that made that one guy unkillable until you smash it? For bonus points, have her badge have the same conditions, so if you want it, you need to mez the embalmed minions without killing them, smash her immortality machine, and then beat her before anybody else. You could even replace her with Dr. Vazilok proper. Maybe he has praetorian ghouls instead of standard zombies? I dunno, there's a lot to do.

Meanwhile the lost can get Rikti allies to help them out, replace all those lesser lost guys with the super psychics, take the party to Mez hell.

[Yaliw]

2 hours ago, TheZag said:

I feel like DFB was only added so people could actually see the hydra head since sewer trial was hardly ran back in the day.  My guess also is that more hard modes are a good possibility since they already hit up an existing TF.  I wouldnt ever participate on a synapse hard mode though unless it was split into 2 or shortened.  I dont have 7 hours for a hard mode synapse in its current form.

 

Hard mode synapse is just 20 defeat alls on large maps and they are all resurrecting freakshow with l33t speak names.

[Bionic_Flea]

What are the TFs that are run most often?

 

My guess would be Posi, Yin, ITF, Apex, Tin Mage, and Market Crash.

 

What do all of these have in common? 

1. They can be sped in less than 30 minutes and kill most take 60-90 minutes. 
2. They have minimum zone changes.
3. They have huge numbers of critters to mow down.
4. They have one or more interesting AV/GM fights.
5. They have good to great rewards for completing.

It's fine to have some shorter and some longer, some simpler and some more complex.  But the TFs named above seems to hit the sweet spot that makes them popular with just about everyone.

 

[UltraAlt]

On 10/27/2022 at 6:06 AM, SeraphimKensai said:

Just an observation that I see from performance, the crystal ball I bought at a storage auction doesn't let me see the slotting choices of the many single-serving pug teammates I find myself paired with. Mind you I'm a min maxer and throw in IO sets as soon as I can. I typically play over on Everlasting.

 

So, if they are not slotted for IO set bonuses or procs, then you consider them to have no enhancements slotted at all?

Edited October 28, 2022 by UltraAlt

[UltraAlt]

On 10/27/2022 at 7:44 AM, Yaliw said:

Low level characters have fewer slots available and some people don't fully slot using SO's at that time period due to how fast they become obsolete.

 

Yeah, sure. They have slots related to their level.

Not everyone power-levels to 50 or only plays the 50's that they already leveled.

 

I think that some is pretty few and far between on most leveling teams.

But I guess it could depend on what server you are on. 

 

The SO's becoming obsolete isn't so much of an issue when you can upgrade them.

Usually the upgrading doesn't cost that much.

If I know someone doesn't have the loot to upgrade on my team, I will usually give it to them. Helping them helps the team.

[Yaliw]

12 minutes ago, UltraAlt said:

 

Yeah, sure. They have slots related to their level.

Not everyone power-levels to 50 or only plays the 50's that they already leveled.

 

I think that some is pretty few and far between on most leveling teams.

But I guess it could depend on what server you are on. 

 

The SO's becoming obsolete isn't so much of an issue when you can upgrade them.

Usually the upgrading doesn't cost that much.

If I know someone doesn't have the loot to upgrade on my team, I will usually give it to them. Helping them helps the team.

The irony of you saying not everyone power leveled to 50 and yet low level characters have infinite influence to be constantly upgrading their enhancements between levels is noted.

 

That'll be all. Thank you.

[SeraphimKensai]

1 hour ago, UltraAlt said:

 

So, if they are not slotted for IO set bonuses or procs, then you consider them to have no enhancements slotted at all?

No I don't automatically assume they don't have any enhancements at all, but I've been on enough pug TFs where I've had people on my discord channel that have explained that they had red SO's or usually don't slot many powers until they can do generic lvl 30 IOs so it does seem like a common occurrence.

 

A character's slotting can affect their performance on a. Task/Strike force, but in my experience the driver of the character is more important than the character's slotting. As a skilled player will understand the content and how their powers are best suited to individual encounters, so they might out perform someone else who may be on a superior slotted toon that is "borrowing" the character from a friend or was power leveled or blindly followed someone else's mids build without really understanding the nuisance of competency.

 

It seems though that the lower level task/strike forces are more likely to find un or under slotted characters and that's something I try to prepare for. Not to say that anyone else should play the way I do, I wouldn't wish that on even Green Bay Packers fans as I sometimes spend entirely too much time trying to analyze the game as opposed to play it.

[UltraAlt]

2 hours ago, Yaliw said:

The irony of you saying not everyone power leveled to 50 and yet low level characters have infinite influence to be constantly upgrading their enhancements between levels is noted.

 

That'll be all. Thank you.

 

 I think you missed this part ....

 

2 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

If I know someone doesn't have the loot to upgrade on my team, I will usually give it to them. Helping them helps the team.

 

It seems like you really think that they need to full enhanced out with fresh SOs at least.

Would you be willing help out others on your team do at least that?

(honestly, it usually one player in my experience - and few and far between - but I don't play on Excelsior much)

 

I don't farm for loot.

I don't play my 50's very often. Usually only to help fight level 40+ AVs or when my friends want to play 50's (they know I really don't like doing it, so it is rare).

But I do have some influence to spread around, and I don't mind doing it to help the community ... especially my teammates.

 

Again, that's me. I don't expect you to do it.

But I know others that have and still do.

 

Yomo is a good example 

 

Edited October 28, 2022 by UltraAlt

[UltraAlt]

10 minutes ago, SeraphimKensai said:

I sometimes spend entirely too much time trying to analyze the game as opposed to play it.

 

Sometimes I spend too much time in the forms because it's easier to converse in the forums than during combat as I have to take my hands of my game controller.

 

12 minutes ago, SeraphimKensai said:

....have explained that they had red SO's or usually don't slot many powers until they can do generic lvl 30 IOs so it does seem like a common occurrence.

 

Well, I think the SO's are a better deal until 45.

Non-set IO's don't lose potency as you level up, but you can't upgrade them either.

 

Like I said in another post, sometimes spreading a little wealth helps out everyone all around.

 

I'm wondering that server you are on that you are seeing so much of this. (or at least running into players that will admit to it. I or my team have called out people on it a couple of times - and I offered to give them loot to help. Honestly, it happens more often than not that they refuse it and say that they will email themselves loot from an alt later on)

I really see very little of it, but I have been running a lot of side project lately and not leading team as much as I should. I'm even getting distracted when /lfgs go out, but if they they filled before I get in, I'm just glad that they were able to fill the team to do what they wanted to do.

[SeraphimKensai]

1 minute ago, UltraAlt said:

Like I said in another post, sometimes spreading a little wealth helps out everyone all around.

 

I'm wondering that server you are on that you are seeing so much of this. (or at least running into players that will admit to it. I or my team have called out people on it a couple of times - and I offered to give them loot to help. Honestly, it happens more often than not that they refuse it and say that they will email themselves loot from an alt later on)

 

I typically play on Everlasting, and if I can get a break long enough to play I'll usually boot up discord and have quite a few people popping in to it while we play. Mind you I'll usually be drinking while playing and occasionally offer up CoH trivia as we play where I'll toss out prizes and such. I'm not Yomo rich, but I'm well off enough that I've tossed numerous pugs some IOs or or 10 mil or so to help them slot themselves out, I've even offered to invite a pug member that was a level or so too low for the tf to my AFK farm that I run while playing to get enough XP to actually run the tf.

 

That all said I also like speed TFs and hard mode TFs, and if I'm doing either I have higher expectations on my team to be prepared to either do a speed or have competency for their character and the content to be useful for a hard mode run.

 

So there's a time and place for everything.

[Ruin Mage]

On 10/26/2022 at 11:51 AM, SeraphimKensai said:

Week 1: How do you feel about taskforce/strikeforce design? Throughout the years we've been presented with a number of task forces and revisions to them. What do you like about task forces in general? What don't you like? What do you think about the zone transitions between missions? What's a good amount of missions for them to be able to tell a story while not being a torture exercise in redundancy? Anyone have any guilty pleasure Taskforce/Strike Force they like to play?

I love all the Task Forces / Strike Forces barring Justin Augustine. Augustine is just plain boring. I'd love to see that one get way less boring/more...unique? I guess.

I think the most egregious zone-hopping ones are Q and Numina. Both of those could use some overhaul in that regard.

My guilty pleasure is the Faathim Task Force.

Edited October 28, 2022 by Shadeknight

[lemming]

33 minutes ago, Shadeknight said:

I love all the Task Forces / Strike Forces barring Justin Augustine. Augustine is just plain boring. I'd love to see that one get way less boring/more...unique? I guess.

I think the most egregious zone-hopping ones are Q and Numina. Both of those could use some overhaul in that regard.

My guilty pleasure is the Faathim Task Force.

For some reason, Q zone hopping doesn't bug me as much as Citadel's back and forth between Talos & IP.

 

Numina's doesn't bug me in that it's a pathed journey and the team can split up to deal with it.