Officially Unofficial Hopefully Weekly Discussion #1: Overall Task Force/Strike Force Design

[SeraphimKensai]

Welcome none and all to the Officially Unofficial Hopefully Weekly Discussion. This is based on a discussion to bring back the weekly GM led discussions. GM Miss used to host weekly discussions for fixed topics, but retired. This is likely due to how @Cobalt ArachneArachne recently discussed the concept of "volunteer budget" in the thread asking for GM led discussions to come back.

 

Well I'm no GM, Dev, hand model, or gas station attendant, I'm just a regular slob like the rest of us. My volunteer budget is probably already in a deficit, but I can pay that by juggling the debt via a few credit cards with very low APR for the first 24 months, so we'll see how long this goes.

 

So this is Officially Unofficial, completely unsanctioned, and probably smells like teen spirit trying to mask sweat but oh well....

 

Week 1: How do you feel about taskforce/strikeforce design? Throughout the years we've been presented with a number of task forces and revisions to them. What do you like about task forces in general? What don't you like? What do you think about the zone transitions between missions? What's a good amount of missions for them to be able to tell a story while not being a torture exercise in redundancy? Anyone have any guilty pleasure Taskforce/Strike Force they like to play?

 

 

Also I'm open to suggestions for next week's topic assuming the fuzz doesn't shut us down.

Edited October 26, 2022 by SeraphimKensai
Extra A deleted. Not a grade I received often.

[El D]

I think the Positron Task Force revamp into Posi 1 and Posi 2 is pretty much a gold standard for any future revamps. They're not an overwhelming deluge of repetitive missions like Synapse or the Shadow Shard TFs, but neither are they an absolute cakewalk like Penny Yin. That a lot of the later task forces are built along similar lines - a relatively small string of 4-6 large missions in which a lot is accomplished - is a pretty great design philosophy to keep imo. The Sutter, Apex, and Tin Mage TFs embraced this and they're some of the best task forces we've got. The Dr. Aeon SF and Hard Mode ITF did it as well to really good effect, which opened up room for the hard mode status to be more flexible in how intense things get and how long the gameplay might take.

 

Zone transitions are fine, so long as they aren't every other mission or done right off the bat (looking at you again, Synapse). They were pretty common in the older, original task forces but by now are basically a relic from the Before Times when 'travel time' was seen as 'gameplay' and we didn't have the massive offering of fast-travel options as we do now. I'd say as a range-finder, Citadel is pretty alright for a standard amount. Numina also works, if as an outlier, because that zone transitions are the core content of the task force and it can be done very quickly if decently organized.

 

Honestly, I like the design that was put in late in the game's life, where all or at least the majority of the doors were linked to the specific zone the contact was in. The RWZ task forces, Katie Hannon, Ms. Liberty, etc. It keeps the focus tighter and makes the content feel less like the team is acting as gophers for the contact. That said, being able to board transit more often and just have the instance say 'You're now in X zone' would be perfectly acceptable. I don't mind having to move around a zone I'm already in - that's an engaging level of movement - but constantly jumping to other zones makes it feel like more of a chore, especially if it's just 'summon the Longbow jet and tap foot while waiting for the teleport prompt.' There's a level of momentum there that isn't maintained and waiting to be chauffeured around when I'd have more fun flying myself is a bit... eh.

Edited October 26, 2022 by El D

[TheZag]

I like a bit of mission variety during a TF.  Kill all clockwork 9 times in a row makes me zig.  I also like the NPCs to chat a bit in speech bubbles about the mission.  Its nice to know whats going on through npc chat instead of having to read through the mission text.  I also prefer unique boss fights over punching a bag of HP for 5 minutes.  I would like to see more powerful moves that have a long cast time and punishing effects that allow players to move from harms way or suffer the consequences.  They dont have to be instant death abilities,  but something that lets us engage in a battle more and not just a fight.

 

[roleki]

[TheZag]

39 minutes ago, SeraphimKensai said:

assuming the fuzz doesn't shut us down.

 

[PeregrineFalcon]

1 hour ago, SeraphimKensai said:

Week 1: How do you feel about taskforce/strikeforce design?

Too many missions. Too many repetitive missions. Unclear story.

 

The fix would be to clean up and streamline the missions, and simplify the storylines. Even if only by having a bolded TL;DR at the botton of the NPC's wall of text.

 

1 hour ago, SeraphimKensai said:

Also I'm open to suggestions for next week's topic assuming the fuzz doesn't shut us down.

My suggestion: adding more variety to Scanner/Newspaper Missions.

[Snarky]

1 hour ago, SeraphimKensai said:

Welcome none and all to the Officially Unofficial Hopefully Weekly Discussion. This is based on a discussion to bring back the weekly GM led discussions. GM Miss used to host weekly discussions for fixed topics, but retired. This is likely due to how @Cobalt ArachneArachne recently discussed the concept of "volunteer budget" in the thread asking for GM led discussions to come back.

 

Well I'm no GM, Dev, hand model, or gas station attendant, I'm just a regular slob like the rest of us. My volunteer budget is probably already in a deficit, but I can pay that by juggling the debt via a few credit cards with very low APR for the first 24 months, so we'll see how long this goes.

 

So this is Officially Unofficial, completely unsanctioned, and probably smells like teen spirit trying to mask sweat but oh well....

 

Week 1: How do you feel about taskforce/strikeforce design? Throughout the years we've been presented with a number of task forces and revisions to them. What do you like about task forces in general? What don't you like? What do you think about the zone transitions between missions? What's a good amount of missions for them to be able to tell a story while not being a torture exercise in redundancy? Anyone have any guilty pleasure Taskforce/Strike Force they like to play?

 

 

Also I'm open to suggestions for next week's topic assuming the fuzz doesn't shut us down.

On a positive note I like the Strike Forces/Task/Trials in City of X.  The only other game I can compare them to is WoW and I like these better

 

Of note is the steady improvement in the content both in revising old content and the wonderful new stuff written by the current Dev team

 

So, thanks to the original Devs and a big thank you to the current Devs

 

 

[BurtHutt]

Good topic and ideas here. I think the best TF is the ITF. I also think Death From Below is a good format to use.

 

Pen Yin is also a good one. The Positron revamp is decent as well.

 

I think these would be a good template to follow going forward. No need to add tons of dialogue and story - it isn't easy to take in all the info so keep it simple. The Aeon SF is an example of just too much....everything....dialogue being the main one. Same with the newer Freaks arc and the arc with the Family. Just keep it straightforward and uncluttered.

[MistressOhm]

From the lore/roleplay perspective, I agree that chatty NPC's makes for an engaging mission, and allows some expansion on "what's going on" besides Wall O' Text (that only the team captain gets to read anyway.)  For those that only want the speedrun without the exposition, one can always banish NPC text to another tab or turn it off entirely.  

 

Zone transitions:  Let's limit these if at all possible.   I WOULD like to see a "entrance zone | instance | exit zone" mechanic used (if this is possible!) so that one could 'chase' the quarry through the instance, dealing with all the roadblocks (NPC's, perhaps mayhem destruction as distractions) that the objective can throw into the path of the stalwart task/strike force members.  Even though the mission is to "Catch X before they get away" the task force uses this as a construct to keep tension up and people engaged, kind of like a road chase movie.  So IF a zone transition is called for, make it more than just a courier mission with a few ambushes along the way.  This method is ... enh... and with mission teleports being a thing, there's too high a likelihood that the group simply leaves the ambush behind where it mills about and attacks unsuspecting players. 

 

Defeat X of Y street sweeps:  If it really fits to the narrative, possibly, but it's much too easily overdone.  So a task force that has these as a considerable chunk, I would think badly needs a revamp.  

 

GM spawns: YES.  Always a good way to close out a task force, especially since a lot of these yield extra merits and sometimes badges for a defeat.  The one part of the Synapse TF I like is when Babbage spawns at the end.  

 

Boss fight mechanics:  This is something that WoW does well (and to a certain extent SWTOR), and CoH could leverage better.  Most boss fights are a tank-and-spank, perhaps with some changeup in what the boss does, adds spawned, etc.  But if there's things you need to use to make the boss vulnerable, or defuse/interrupt a nuke attack, perhaps directional shields that require better positioning, all of these things make a boss fight 'interesting' in regards to strategy.  Not saying every TF needs a complex boss mechanic, but it'd be better than "overcome the regen, everybody debuff and DPS like crazy". 

[SeraphimKensai]

I see they haven't shut us down yet.

 

That all said I think a reasonable benchmark of time for a task force is no more than about 2.5 hours, much more than that and it quickly becomes a chore.

 

Breaking up the Positron TF was a great idea. Yes there's still some zone travel but it feels connected to the story more so than just go here, then there, and back to here etc. The length of each part works well.

 

Synapse wouldn't get nearly as bad of a rap as it has if the 3 identical kill all's were condensed. I chuckle about the payphone patrols, as I had to explain to someone what a payphone was. Synapse is a bit of a guilty pleasure for me as when it comes around for it's.turn as the WST, I'll boot up all three of my accounts and solo an early morning run of it, and milk some extra merits on my two alts while I wait for everyone to wake up.

 

I enjoy the recent work on the ASF and ITF revamp personally. Also Smoke and Mirrors is a fun one that a lot of people have no idea it exists.

 

 

[Yaliw]

Controversial opinion: posi 1 is harder than most taskforces now. I've had more defeats during posi 1 than almost any other taskforce.

 

I like it. I love it. I want some more of it.

 

Seriously, I want challenging taskforces. Not so hard that I'm not going to bring a certain archetype but I want to have to think where to go and team coordination. Posi 1 is perfect difficulty wise IMHO.

 

 

[UltraAlt]

5 hours ago, SeraphimKensai said:

Week 1:

 

5 hours ago, SeraphimKensai said:

How do you feel about taskforce/strikeforce design?

 

End-gamers are going to have to decide what they want, so I'm going to speak to the game taskforce/strikeforce design for level 1-45 PUGs.

I'm cutting it off at 45 because I think the next level that get task forces is 50. I'm even thinking that my comments should really only be considered on the task forces through level 40.

 

5 hours ago, SeraphimKensai said:

What do you like about task forces in general? 

 

I enjoy PUG'ing up for  task force (and sometimes a strike force) because I like being on a big team with a bunch of players with different powers that I haven't teamed with before and experiencing them with my different characters (power sets, rationale, tactics, and team coordination). I really like seeing a team struggle to figure out how to work with each other and then turn into a unified team as the taskforce progresses. Everyone gets merits on completion of the task force (arc).

 

5 hours ago, SeraphimKensai said:

What don't you like?

 

The problem with many task forces is that they are just too long for many players.

 

I think this is why we see a lot of recruiting for Posi 1, Posi 2, and Yin.

All of these can be done within an hour with no big strain on the team. Sometime they will run longer, but this tends to be when the difficulty is set too high for the team on the final mission of the taskforce

 

I think the 30-60 minute window is doable by most players and that the leveling tasks forces need to take that into account.

Posi as broken up like this. It's basically Positron Chapter 1 and Positron Chapter 2. A complete story within itself with an AV at the end of both chapters.

I would like this seen to all game task forces (level 1-45).

 

I'm talking about this time limit/gauge for leveling teams and not "speed" teams. Looking at a team that has the lowest level characters allowed in the taskforce with no 50's involved as the determining factor for the time range.

 

This setup makes it easier to recruit for and usually avoids doorsitters try to join/joining.

Hopefully, less reason to need to take a bio during a task force.

It is the manageable length of time for a television show. 

 

I don't think you need to do this with all Task forces, but, for many of them, this would mean that they would be played instead of being avoided.

 

---

I don't like someone rushing in to the next mission and changing the difficulty level to theirs instead of the one set by the taskforce leader.

I had thought this was fixed, but it has not been fixed.

 

---

I don't like players (mostly 50's) joining task forces and deciding that it is their decision to make it a speed run.

 

----

I don't like it when I join a task force because the leader agrees that it is a leveling/XP run, I sit around for 10-20 minutes while a task force assembles, some on the task force decides it's a speed run, and the leader is okay with that.

  

 

5 hours ago, SeraphimKensai said:

What do you think about the zone transitions between missions?

 

I used to really like racing zone to zone to do missions. I thought it was a lot of fun. I liked watching at task force go streaming over head racing off the next mission when I was street sweeping or running other missions.

Players tend to want the game to play faster at this point (another reason for shorting the time length of a task force as listed above).

 

On most of the task forces that I'm on/run, we are using the team teleporter to go zone to zone or using mission teleporter and then assembling the team when all or most of the team zones. 

For this reason, most of the time going from zone to zone is to an issue.

 

It does become an issue if you are getting sent to multiple zones for hunts.

I would like the hunts to be changed into door missions. (I would say ambushes, but see below)

 

I'm not sure how to fix ambushes (which sometimes ae part of hunt missions). They could be fun, but, outside of missions, they cause issues as they are targeted on where the team leader is located and not the totality of the team. The team leader can be separated from the team

If the team had to go somewhere and do something that triggered an ambush (or waves of ambushes), that would seem to work better. The team would know to tend to wait to trigger the ambushes once everyone was assembled.

I'm not sure if that would even work.

 

5 hours ago, SeraphimKensai said:

What's a good amount of missions for them to be able to tell a story while not being a torture exercise in redundancy?

 

Use Posi 1, Posi 2, and Yin as a gauge.

 

6 hours ago, SeraphimKensai said:

Anyone have any guilty pleasure Taskforce/Strike Force they like to play?

 

Pretty obviously - Posi 1, Posi 2, and Yin.

Correct time length. Can be challenging. Difficulty can be regulated to fit the team. no hunts.

 

But I do really like Moonfire and Ernesto Hess. For their own reasons. But they can tend to be too long for some teams.

 

I like Kate Hannon and Citadel okay.

The length of Kate Hannon seems fine; I just don't play it that often.

As I recall, the door missions are fun, but it just seems a bit long sometimes and I seem to think that there were a bunch of hunts or a stray ambush that causes issues.

 

I'm not a big fan of Sutter because it's kind of confusing to know where to go. I have to chase other people around trying to figure out where I'm supposed to be.

 

Synapse needs some major fixing. It is just too long. 

Back in the day, I'm pretty sure this was one of the task forces that was created as a tour of THE CITY, but, obviously, the player base is past that at this point.

 

 

6 hours ago, SeraphimKensai said:

Also I'm open to suggestions for next week's topic assuming the fuzz doesn't shut us down.

 

Thanks for leading.

You have the star.

[SeraphimKensai]

18 minutes ago, Yaliw said:

Controversial opinion: posi 1 is harder than most taskforces now. I've had more defeats during posi 1 than almost any other taskforce.

 

 

Are you saying this because a majority of the characters on a posi 1 tf are unslotted, don't have knockback prot, and are out classed by their shadow doppelgangers?

 

You might have to run an old school posi tf vs a posi 1 with the same group to judge how much of a difficulty difference you're looking at. I do like the Shadow Doppelganger event at the end of Posi 1. If I was competent and able to redesign, I'd have the defeated Shadow Doppelgangers reform with Rollister to make a Shadow Madness Mage AV for the final encounter of the tf, but het that's just me.

[Yaliw]

13 minutes ago, SeraphimKensai said:

Are you saying this because a majority of the characters on a posi 1 tf are unslotted, don't have knockback prot, and are out classed by their shadow doppelgangers?

 

You might have to run an old school posi tf vs a posi 1 with the same group to judge how much of a difficulty difference you're looking at. I do like the Shadow Doppelganger event at the end of Posi 1. If I was competent and able to redesign, I'd have the defeated Shadow Doppelgangers reform with Rollister to make a Shadow Madness Mage AV for the final encounter of the tf, but het that's just me.

I think it's a combination of things:

 

Lack of slotting

General low level lack of power and abilities

Ruin mages have both a +Def AND -tohit power.

Spectrals have -tohit aura too.

Last mission requires teams to not pull extra groups

 

It's tough. I think Ruin mages should be part of the CoT at all levels and not just low level- as a challenge.

 

But yeah posi 1 is I think the perfect difficulty for a casual taskforce.

[Glacier Peak]

I'm easy to please - change anything or change nothing and I'll still enjoy my time in game. Make new content or add new rewards to old content, I'm going to play it all anyways. Keep innovativing or stop all together but still keep the lights on - I'm going to show up regardless. 

[Black Zot]

The KISS principle should apply to task force design.  The more missions and general running around you tack on, the less people are going run it - they simply won't have the time or stamina.  Zone-hopping, kill-alls, and street hunts are especially egregious in the "tacking on extra time for no benefit" department and should be kept to a minimum if not eliminated. 

 

As people have pointed out, only the team leader (usually) sees the exposition text blocks, so the general plot of a TF/SF needs to be straightforward enough for people to get the gist of it simply by following along.  Penny Yin is pretty much the gold standard where this is concerned; pretty much anyone capable of navigating from one end of a mission map to the other can figure out what's going on.  On the opposite end you have stuff like Lady Grey - ok, we can infer from the NPC giving the missions that the Rikti are up to something, but why the blueberry fuck are we taking on 2/3rds of the enemy groups in the game that scale to level 50?

[KaizenSoze]

As I suggested in the thread below. At least the final mission should be epic.

 

As an example of extremely non-epic final missions, both Citadel and Synapse have boring endings among their many crimes. Let's fight exactly mobs we have been fighting all TF, then add one AV at the end. *snore*

 

ITF, Aeon, Sutter, Posi 1, Yin, Silver Mantis, Market Crash, have much better final missions.

 

 

[ZorkNemesis]

5 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

I don't like players (mostly 50's) joining task forces and deciding that it is their decision to make it a speed run.

 

Quoting this bit specifically because I personally cannot stand people doing this.  I often use PuG TFs as a means of spicing up my leveling of lower characters, but that goes by the wayside when Kurgen McAsskicker decides he's just going to kill the boss before the rest of the party has their foot through the front door.

 

(No offense meant to Kurgen McAsskicker if he's actually here, that was just a name I came up with on the spot and thought it was funny)

 

Edited October 27, 2022 by ZorkNemesis

[UltraAlt]

8 hours ago, MistressOhm said:

 I WOULD like to see a "entrance zone | instance | exit zone" mechanic used (if this is possible!) so that one could 'chase' the quarry through the instance

 

In the AE, you can definitely set a boss to run and try to escape with the triggers. I don't see any reason that this can't be done on a TF.

Forking TF missions if the character escapes or not would add a nice twist.

 

5 hours ago, SeraphimKensai said:

Are you saying this because a majority of the characters on a posi 1 tf are unslotted

 

where do you get this from?

and in relation to which server?

 

5 hours ago, Yaliw said:

Lack of slotting

 

where are you all getting this from?

 

5 hours ago, Yaliw said:

General low level lack of power and abilities

 

The task forces are gauged for characters at that level. They aren't lacking.

A Posi run by a character that is level 8 is very different from a Posi run by a character that is above the max level of the task force.

 

5 hours ago, Yaliw said:

Last mission requires teams to not pull extra groups

 

Yeah. You are expected to use some amount of strategy, team work, and self-control.

 

 

Edited October 27, 2022 by UltraAlt

[Doc_Scorpion]

5 hours ago, Yaliw said:

Controversial opinion: posi 1 is harder than most taskforces now. I've had more defeats during posi 1 than almost any other taskforce.

I agree...  and disagree.  It's not that Posi 1 is in and of itself harder, or that players are unequal to the challenge for <handwave> reasons.  It's because Posi 1, especially the final mission, is cruelly unforgiving to teams that are poorly lead and/or contain a significant number of players who don't know how to play as a team.  Posi 1 seems to be difficult, but that's down to the combat meta on HC - to the ungraceful zerg rush and the players who are soling the map that everyone else just happens to be on.

I agree, I'd love to see more task forces, more missions, that demand competent play...  but that's going to be very difficult task in a world where people can zerg rush the final mission of the ITF.  You can't quite levy the same demands on the playerbase at large that Hard Mode content levies on the super hardcore.

[UltraAlt]

1 hour ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

the combat meta on HC - to the ungraceful zerg rush and the players who are soling the map that everyone else just happens to be on.

 

Ouch.

Oh, not painful to me. I mean there is really too much of the bull-in-the-china-shop.

 

It's a lack of tactics or any kind of organization. And the worst part of is it is when you get multiple characters that are just running around berserk and really don't care about what the rest of the team is doing or what is going on in the mission.

 

1 hour ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

You can't quite levy the same demands on the playerbase at large that Hard Mode content levies on the super hardcore.

 

I can't say how many times that I have been on task forces when I have to tell them not to rush in.

So much easier to deal with mobs and keep from agro-ing more mobs that the team can handle, if you just don't rush in. It doesn't have to be a tank taunting, but it can be. It doesn't have to be a blaster sniping, but it can be.

Just a little bit of tactics goes a long way.

Decent tactics go lot further.

 

But I don't want to derail the thread too much, but I agree that there are player based issues in relation to task forces.

 

I don't think the same issues on task forces apply to level 50 task forces as they do to level 1-45. 

Most of the feedback I have heard about level 50 task forces is that endgame task forces aren't difficult enough for the more L337 end-gamers.

 

 

[MistressOhm]

3 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

In the AE, you can definitely set a boss to run and try to escape with the triggers. I don't see any reason that this can't be done on a TF.

Forking TF missions if the character escapes or not would add a nice twist.

 

This is not precisely the "boss escapes" AE trigger mechanic, more like the instances that lead you across Atlas Park zone, go in one door and come out another.  The Sewer Network already connects zones also, but was thinking of perhaps an instance (out in the open, or enclosed) where you enter on one side and then exit on the other, getting hit by ambushes or "distractions" (sudden tasks to complete) that slow you down while you do so.  It's kind of baked into the script that the boss 'escapes' since the team never actually sees a Big Bad, only evidence of their passing.  When you get to the other side and 'exit' you're popped out in another city zone, instead of the one you started the mission in.

[UltraAlt]

3 minutes ago, MistressOhm said:

When you get to the other side and 'exit' you're popped out in another city zone, instead of the one you started the mission in.

 

Yeah, not sure they can do that ... or there would already be a chance for "wandering monsters" on the trams and you'd get in a fight sometimes when you tried to use them when moving from one zone to another.

[SeraphimKensai]

5 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

 

where do you get this from?

and in relation to which server?

Just an observation that I see from performance, the crystal ball I bought at a storage auction doesn't let me see the slotting choices of the many single-serving pug teammates I find myself paired with. Mind you I'm a min maxer and throw in IO sets as soon as I can. I typically play over on Everlasting.

[Grouchybeast]

6 hours ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

I agree...  and disagree.  It's not that Posi 1 is in and of itself harder, or that players are unequal to the challenge for <handwave> reasons.  It's because Posi 1, especially the final mission, is cruelly unforgiving to teams that are poorly lead and/or contain a significant number of players who don't know how to play as a team.  Posi 1 seems to be difficult, but that's down to the combat meta on HC - to the ungraceful zerg rush and the players who are soling the map that everyone else just happens to be on.

 

I feel like this is the best kind of difficulty for a TF, much better than just tossing in a giant sack of HP and regen to click at for ten minutes.  Like, the tactics required to overcome Posi 1 are pretty minimal, but they're there, and anyway CoX is a casual game and minimal tactics is probably all we should be asking for in a low level TF especially.   There's nothing quite like the bracing feeling of impending doom as someone goes haring off towards the City Hall doors, dragging spawns after them, and you know that giant ambush is coming your way and minute now.