Melee Powerset Comparison

[twozerofoxtrot]

3 hours ago, Snarky said:

Brutes were nerfed on live a couple times and Scrappers outdamage them.  (pssst, look at the charts) and Tankers had more armor.  

4 hours ago, Snarky said:

optimal melee AT class

 

And yet they were still the optimal melee choice because they cleared large groups faster than Scrappers while having more than enough armor to do so. Scrappers just outdid them in single target. Tankers were superfluous.

 

3 hours ago, Snarky said:

Now Tankers do more damage than Brutes or Scrappers thanks to giant AoE patches and damage scalar buff, ...still have more armor.

Never argued to the contrary. I like pancakes; doesn't mean I hate waffles.

 

 

3 hours ago, Snarky said:

Flat out wrong. 

Entertaining to think your opinion would carry any weight considering how you routinely demonstrate your lack of understanding of the game on these forums.

[WumpusRat]

3 hours ago, Snarky said:

Flat out wrong.  Brutes were nerfed on live a couple times and Scrappers outdamage them.  (pssst, look at the charts) and Tankers had more armor.  

 

Now Tankers do more damage than Brutes or Scrappers thanks to giant AoE patches and damage scalar buff, ...still have more armor.

I'm curious, though. Aren't those charts based on the fact that the characters had tons of procs in nearly every attack?

 

Procs aren't affected by +damage, as far as I'm aware. So by going with lots of procs, wouldn't brutes be kind of nerfing their own damage, when they're running at high fury, or with lots of red insps?

 

<edit> Come to think of it, scrappers would too, since procs can't crit (again, as far as I know). So putting lots of procs in attacks benefits ... tankers. Which might explain why they were doing so much better per those charts. Or am I simply misreading it?

Edited December 13, 2022 by WumpusRat

[Ston]

10 minutes ago, WumpusRat said:

I'm curious, though. Aren't those charts based on the fact that the characters had tons of procs in nearly every attack?

 

Procs aren't affected by +damage, as far as I'm aware. So by going with lots of procs, wouldn't brutes be kind of nerfing their own damage, when they're running at high fury, or with lots of red insps?

 

<edit> Come to think of it, scrappers would too, since procs can't crit (again, as far as I know). So putting lots of procs in attacks benefits ... tankers. Which might explain why they were doing so much better per those charts. Or am I simply misreading it?

 

You can only slot so much damage. 2 lvl 53 acc/dam HOs on scrappers & tanks puts you near ED cap. So you wanna get extra proc damage from the remaining slots.

 

Thats the general slotting you see for minmax scrapper/blaster/tanker builds. Brutes usually trade an acc/dam for an extra proc 

Edited December 13, 2022 by Ston

[WumpusRat]

14 minutes ago, Ston said:

 

You can only slot so much damage. 2 lvl 53 acc/dam HOs on scrappers & tanks puts you near ED cap. So you wanna get extra proc damage from the remaining slots.

 

Thats the general slotting you see for minmax scrapper/blaster/tanker builds. Brutes usually trade an acc/dam for an extra proc 

Interesting. Are you running every build with hasten or something? Because unless you're stacking tons of global recharge, it would be a bit rough to maintain an attack chain with no/very little recharge in attacks. I guess I just don't get the whole "proc meta" thing. 

[Ston]

2 minutes ago, WumpusRat said:

Interesting. Are you running every build with hasten or something? Because unless you're stacking tons of global recharge, it would be a bit rough to maintain an attack chain with no/very little recharge in attacks. I guess I just don't get the whole "proc meta" thing. 

 

Yes. They use hasten and ageless to solve any endurance/recharge issues. I can also usually got 70-80% global recharge set bonuses 

[WumpusRat]

21 minutes ago, Ston said:

 

Yes. They use hasten and ageless to solve any endurance/recharge issues. I can also usually got 70-80% global recharge set bonuses 

 

I'd be curious to see some of these builds. Because without any recharge bonuses from attack sets, it seems like you'd have to have really wonky builds to get 70-80% global recharge. I mean, I guess if you were using only defense-oriented defensive sets so you could easily stack 5 lotg's as well as other stuff it would be easier, but it still seems like it would require kind of a weird build.

 

<edit> Oh, unless that 70-80% includes the ageless bonus. That would be easier, definitely.

 

<edit2> Also, I'm not trying to go "boo, you're doing it wrong" or anything. I've never actually focused on procs before. I'm too much of a fan of set bonuses. So I'd be curious to give one of these builds a try on test compared to my own builds, to see how mine stack up against them.

Edited December 13, 2022 by WumpusRat

[Ston]

9 minutes ago, WumpusRat said:

 

I'd be curious to see some of these builds. Because without any recharge bonuses from attack sets, it seems like you'd have to have really wonky builds to get 70-80% global recharge. I mean, I guess if you were using only defense-oriented defensive sets so you could easily stack 5 lotg's as well as other stuff it would be easier, but it still seems like it would require kind of a weird build.

 

<edit> Oh, unless that 70-80% includes the ageless bonus. That would be easier, definitely.

 

All the builds are posted in the linked spreadsheet in the OP. 

 

But you can get plenty of bonuses form LoTGs and slotting full sets in non-attack-chain powers. For example I often put 5pc purple sets in Boxing and Brawl. The 80% is without hasten/ageless

[WumpusRat]

Just now, Ston said:

 

All the builds are posted in the linked spreadsheet in the OP. 

 

But you can get plenty of bonuses form LoTGs and slotting full sets in non-attack-chain powers. For example I often put 5pc purple sets in Boxing and Brawl. The 80% is without hasten/ageless

Ah, okay. I'll take a look when I get home from work and give a couple a try.

 

And 5-slotting boxing and brawl? Yeah, that qualifies as "wonky" to me. 🙂 But I guess if it works!

[Gobbledigook]

10 hours ago, Ston said:

 

Do you have numbers to support this?

 

I’ve done Pylon tests and Tankers can beat Brutes. I’ve also recorded the time it takes to kill Trapdoor and the Tankers usually kill him faster too. The build up procs really let Tanks catch up in ST dps. 

Well i posted my pylon times and they are there on that spread sheet that sits at the bottom of many posts in the Trapdoor test. Pylon dps mega sheet. Done by many unbiased testers. One extreme result that took forever to achieve with the luck of the gods, which Brutes are just as capable of doing better.

 

I do not know of any Tanker that will break the 1minute 30 second pylon consistently. A tanker is more average 2 minutes or thereabout for fast average times and that is only certain builds with a hell of a lot of procs sacrificing Tanking power. Scrappers are low 1 minutes. Brutes are in the middle of those 2. Show me your evidence to say otherwise.

 

A procced out Tanker can beat a none procced tanky built Brute though. But equal builds the Brute will win but be less survivable unless buffed by a team. Build the Brute to dps and let the team buff the survival. What Brutes seem to want is the ability to do both just as good as their counterparts.

 

My SS/Bio brute does 1min 45 seconds average and that is toned back from 1 min 30 seconds to give it a more well rounded do all build. Show me your Tanker doing that? Show me your Tanker do low 1 minute pylons like Scrappers. 

 

According to this....

Captain Powerhouse.

The base damage scale is being increased to the point it is precisely because forever the devs maintained that the tanker should be doing 75% the damage of a scrapper. In practice, the tanker was doing, an average of 60%~65% the damage of a scrapper, after mods, crits and higher +damage mods came to play. A base damage scale of 0.95 takes the tanker to approximately that point.

---------------------------------------------------

 

Tankers really should be doing closer to Scrapper damage than they actually are now according to this statement.. Scrappers do Pylons in under 1 minute.

 

Show me your data!

 

If a Brute is fairly close to a Tankers clear times as your own data above shows and the Tanker does greater AoE then it shows the Brute must be hitting harder to even come close to keeping up. The SS time for Brute and Tanker average is 4.37? yet the Tanker has greater AoE.  So what does that say?.

Fire melee on Brutes and Tankers are not the same!

 

Tanker AoE is what is closing the gaps in this test. Is your BU proc consistent or are you using it to exaggerate your times?

 

Edited December 13, 2022 by Gobbledegook

[Bionic_Flea]

Thanks for posting your builds and your testing results, Ston!

 

For those that think the tests should be run differently, respectfully: run your own tests with whatever parameters you want.  I think it would be great to run a similar test with just level 50 generic IOs to compare the sets a little more directly, but I don't expect Ston to run it.  Maybe if I have free time over the holidays I can at least give it a start.

 

One question though, @Ston: looking at your fire melee tank, why didn't you use Achilles Heal in any of the sword attacks vs the Lysosome HOs you slotted?  I didn't look at the other fire melees to see if they were slotted the same. (lemme check).

 

Edit: The other ATs were similarly though not necessarily exactly slotted.  But non used Achilles.

Edited December 13, 2022 by Bionic_Flea

[InvaderStych]

4 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

I think it would be great to run a similar test with just level 50 generic IOs to compare the sets a little more directly, but I don't expect Ston to run it.

 

@Galaxy Brain runs a similar series of tests using SOs and /Willpower on Scrappers.

 

I don't recall if they post the results here on the forums though.

[Ston]

19 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

Thanks for posting your builds and your testing results, Ston!

 

For those that think the tests should be run differently, respectfully: run your own tests with whatever parameters you want.  I think it would be great to run a similar test with just level 50 generic IOs to compare the sets a little more directly, but I don't expect Ston to run it.  Maybe if I have free time over the holidays I can at least give it a start.

 

One question though, @Ston: looking at your fire melee tank, why didn't you use Achilles Heal in any of the sword attacks vs the Lysosome HOs you slotted?  I didn't look at the other fire melees to see if they were slotted the same. (lemme check).

 

Edit: The other ATs were similarly though not necessarily exactly slotted.  But non used Achilles.

 

Thanks Flea!

 

I didn’t have Mids updated at the time so I used those as placeholders for either Touch of Lady Grey or Achilles procs! Also the Overwhelming Force in Cremate were replaced by Explosive Strike and Force Feedback procs 😁 

[Ston]

1 hour ago, Gobbledegook said:

Well i posted my pylon times and they are there on that spread sheet that sits at the bottom of many posts in the Trapdoor test. Pylon dps mega sheet. Done by many unbiased testers. One extreme result that took forever to achieve with the luck of the gods, which Brutes are just as capable of doing better.

 

I do not know of any Tanker that will break the 1minute 30 second pylon consistently. A tanker is more average 2 minutes or thereabout for fast average times and that is only certain builds with a hell of a lot of procs sacrificing Tanking power. Scrappers are low 1 minutes. Brutes are in the middle of those 2. Show me your evidence to say otherwise.

 

A procced out Tanker can beat a none procced tanky built Brute though. But equal builds the Brute will win but be less survivable unless buffed by a team. Build the Brute to dps and let the team buff the survival. What Brutes seem to want is the ability to do both just as good as their counterparts.

 

My SS/Bio brute does 1min 45 seconds average and that is toned back from 1 min 30 seconds to give it a more well rounded do all build. Show me your Tanker doing that? Show me your Tanker do low 1 minute pylons like Scrappers. 

 

According to this....

Captain Powerhouse.

The base damage scale is being increased to the point it is precisely because forever the devs maintained that the tanker should be doing 75% the damage of a scrapper. In practice, the tanker was doing, an average of 60%~65% the damage of a scrapper, after mods, crits and higher +damage mods came to play. A base damage scale of 0.95 takes the tanker to approximately that point.

---------------------------------------------------

 

Tankers really should be doing closer to Scrapper damage than they actually are now according to this statement.. Scrappers do Pylons in under 1 minute.

 

Show me your data!

 

If a Brute is fairly close to a Tankers clear times as your own data above shows and the Tanker does greater AoE then it shows the Brute must be hitting harder to even come close to keeping up. The SS time for Brute and Tanker average is 4.37? yet the Tanker has greater AoE.  So what does that say?.

Fire melee on Brutes and Tankers are not the same!

 

Tanker AoE is what is closing the gaps in this test. Is your BU proc consistent or are you using it to exaggerate your times?

 

 

I know a Tanker won’t be getting near Scrapper Pylon times. Scrappers will do way more sustained DPS because of Crit Strikes. 

 

I’ve done one Tanker vs Brute Pylon test and got these results back when page 5 came out:

 

”was just testing and got a faster pylon time on my bio/axe tank than my axe/bio brute too... was only 2:05 vs 2:12 though so at least it's a little closer there”

 

I could’ve built/played the Brute wrong though. I’ll try to get more Pylon data for this throughout the week to see how they compare when using WP instead of Bio. But they should be using as many procs as they can to pump out the most damage their AT will allow.

[Gobbledigook]

1 hour ago, Ston said:

 

I know a Tanker won’t be getting near Scrapper Pylon times. Scrappers will do way more sustained DPS because of Crit Strikes. 

 

I’ve done one Tanker vs Brute Pylon test and got these results back when page 5 came out:

 

”was just testing and got a faster pylon time on my bio/axe tank than my axe/bio brute too... was only 2:05 vs 2:12 though so at least it's a little closer there”

 

I could’ve built/played the Brute wrong though. I’ll try to get more Pylon data for this throughout the week to see how they compare when using WP instead of Bio. But they should be using as many procs as they can to pump out the most damage their AT will allow.

I will try a BA/Bio Brute if i can get chance to see what time i can get. It took hours of testing and swapping things around when i did my pylon times. I don't have the inclination as much nowadays though.

 

I originally made the Bio/SS Tanker and was impressed with it although survival takes a dive with a damage build. So i tried the Brute with a similar build not even considering building survival. Tweaked it a little and got consistently better times as i hoped/expected i would. The Brute is not as survivable out of the box as a Tanker but it will out damage one on a single target at least.

 

Brutes trying to build toughness to near Tanker levels may as well just roll a Tanker unless they are willing to make 2 builds one for dps and the other for tanking. Play the Brute as a Dps with slightly better Scrapper survival and get in a team with buffs and become near Tanker level toughness with more damage. Tankers are very good at clearing trash with AoE since i26 giving them decent clear times also.

 

The Brute needs a better ATO which could make quite a difference for them. 

 

Let me ask this.... do Brute players use the epic pool attacks at all? because they are 16 target just like a Tanker. The incarnate Judgement are equal also. It is only the Tanker main AoE attacks that benefit from increased AoE of which SS has 1, although it is a good one.

 

The team were happy that under certain circumstances Tanker and Brute were very close clearing trash and in the right team a Brute is near Tanker survival. But a Brute takes harder targets down faster.

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Captain Powerhouse...

So far, in my own testing and data-mining, the only places I found tankers beat brute all involve having enemies literally rain on top of the tanker (in a kill 100 test.) Killing waves (with minions dying before higher rank enemies and intermittently lowering target saturation) the brute takes a clear advantage.

 

 

Edited December 13, 2022 by Gobbledegook

[Erratic1]

Epic area attacks are not exactly quick recharging attacks, even in comparison to Melee area attacks.

 

Axe Cyclone and Pendulum are up every 18s, Foot Stomp and Fire Sword Circle every 20s.

 

By contrast Energy Torrent is up ever 24s, Bile Spray, Disruptor Blast, Ball Lightning, Fire Ball, and Dark Obliteration every 32s, Stalagmites every 64s, and Ice Storm every 120s. 

 

Tanker secondary melee attacks are going to recharge faster and hit more targets than anything a Brute is going to get from their Epic pool attacks. Probably the Tanker secondaries will do more damage too for not being pool powers.

[Ston]

4 hours ago, Gobbledegook said:

I will try a BA/Bio Brute if i can get chance to see what time i can get. It took hours of testing and swapping things around when i did my pylon times. I don't have the inclination as much nowadays though.

 

I originally made the Bio/SS Tanker and was impressed with it although survival takes a dive with a damage build. So i tried the Brute with a similar build not even considering building survival. Tweaked it a little and got consistently better times as i hoped/expected i would. The Brute is not as survivable out of the box as a Tanker but it will out damage one on a single target at least.

 

Brutes trying to build toughness to near Tanker levels may as well just roll a Tanker unless they are willing to make 2 builds one for dps and the other for tanking. Play the Brute as a Dps with slightly better Scrapper survival and get in a team with buffs and become near Tanker level toughness with more damage. Tankers are very good at clearing trash with AoE since i26 giving them decent clear times also.

 

The Brute needs a better ATO which could make quite a difference for them. 

 

Let me ask this.... do Brute players use the epic pool attacks at all? because they are 16 target just like a Tanker. The incarnate Judgement are equal also. It is only the Tanker main AoE attacks that benefit from increased AoE of which SS has 1, although it is a good one.

 

The team were happy that under certain circumstances Tanker and Brute were very close clearing trash and in the right team a Brute is near Tanker survival. But a Brute takes harder targets down faster.

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Captain Powerhouse...

So far, in my own testing and data-mining, the only places I found tankers beat brute all involve having enemies literally rain on top of the tanker (in a kill 100 test.) Killing waves (with minions dying before higher rank enemies and intermittently lowering target saturation) the brute takes a clear advantage.

 

 

 

So decided to start some tests for Brute vs Tanker ST DPS with Broadsword. Will post side-by-side screenshots of the builds. Went with the typical loadout for my Brute & Tanker Builds (Vigor & 5 procs vs Musc & 4 procs). The Brute has one less proc in Gloom in order to get HP bonus from Apocalypse. 

I think Broadsword was a good set to start with since it doesn't benefit either AT different than the other (unlike SS, Claws, DB..). It has a pretty standard set of attacks.

 

Used the same attack chain for both ATs [Gloom > Hack > Disembowel > Head Splitter].

Tanker: [2:49, 3:04, 3:05] Average = 2:59 = 342DPS

Brute: [2:42, 2:47, 2:50] Average = 2:45 = 360DPS

 

I imagine this would translate pretty consistently across the other sets. While it's good that Brutes do more ST damage, I'm concerned about the margin and that Tankers can possibly get ANY Pylon times faster than Brutes.

Edited December 13, 2022 by Ston

[Gobbledigook]

10 minutes ago, Ston said:

 

So decided to start some tests for Brute vs Tanker ST DPS with Broadsword. Will post side-by-side screenshots of the builds. Went with the typical loadout for my Brute & Tanker Builds (Vigor & 5 procs vs Musc & 4 procs). The Brute has one less proc in Gloom in order to get HP bonus from Apocalypse. 

Tanker: [2:59, 3:04, 3:05] Average = 2:59 = 342DPS

Brute: [2:42, 2:47, 2:50] Average = 2:45 = 360DPS

 

I imagine this would translate pretty consistently across the other sets. While it's good that Brutes do more ST damage, I'm concerned about the margin and that Tankers can possibly get ANY Pylon times faster than Brutes.

What is the fury set at? Why BS when it was BA you mentioned earlier?

Edited December 13, 2022 by Gobbledegook

[Gobbledigook]

2 hours ago, Erratic1 said:

Epic area attacks are not exactly quick recharging attacks, even in comparison to Melee area attacks.

 

Axe Cyclone and Pendulum are up every 18s, Foot Stomp and Fire Sword Circle every 20s.

 

By contrast Energy Torrent is up ever 24s, Bile Spray, Disruptor Blast, Ball Lightning, Fire Ball, and Dark Obliteration every 32s, Stalagmites every 64s, and Ice Storm every 120s. 

 

Tanker secondary melee attacks are going to recharge faster and hit more targets than anything a Brute is going to get from their Epic pool attacks. Probably the Tanker secondaries will do more damage too for not being pool powers.

 

But it still makes a difference and Brutes just hit harder for less target on some of their attacks.. That was part of the reasoning behind it so take it up with Captain Powerhouse rather than stating the obvious.

 

When you add recharge in that 32 seconds becomes a lot less, probably a couple or so seconds difference. But go for the highest number as that does look better.

[Ston]

13 minutes ago, Gobbledegook said:

What is the fury set at? Why BS when it was BA you mentioned earlier?

 

On a Pylon test Fury is usually around 80%. I set it to 85% in Mids. 

 

And no reason in particular. Might do more sets as I get time. 

[tidge]

2 hours ago, Erratic1 said:

Epic area attacks are not exactly quick recharging attacks, even in comparison to Melee area attacks.

 

Axe Cyclone and Pendulum are up every 18s, Foot Stomp and Fire Sword Circle every 20s.

 

By contrast Energy Torrent is up ever 24s, Bile Spray, Disruptor Blast, Ball Lightning, Fire Ball, and Dark Obliteration every 32s, Stalagmites every 64s, and Ice Storm every 120s. 

 

Tanker secondary melee attacks are going to recharge faster and hit more targets than anything a Brute is going to get from their Epic pool attacks. Probably the Tanker secondaries will do more damage too for not being pool powers.

 

Wall of Force is a very proc-friendly, rapid-cycling ranged cone that I like to add to Tankers. I have never like the Fury mechanic, so I've never 'finished' a Brute build, but Brutes can have this power at the same level as Tankers.

[Gobbledigook]

17 minutes ago, Ston said:

 

On a Pylon test Fury is usually around 80%. I set it to 85% in Mids. 

 

And no reason in particular. Might do more sets as I get time. 

Try the test with out any procs at all. SO's only. Set the Fury to 85%.  No Build up anywhere and then state the difference. Add some recharge if you want but state how much and from what. Use exact same powers. Leave incarnate out of this or use the same.

 

Simplify it a little.

Edited December 13, 2022 by Gobbledegook

[Ston]

3 minutes ago, Gobbledegook said:

Try the test with out any procs at all. SO's only. Set the Fury to 85%.  No Build up anywhere and then state the difference. Add some recharge if you want but state how much and from what. Use exact same powers. Leave incarnate out of this.

 

I’ll leave that to you.
 

Brutes will do more ST DPS on just SOs. On my axe pylon test, the Brute averaged 30s faster than the Tanker when powers were restricted to having a max of 1 proc. (Tanker was still faster on trapdoor with those restrictions). 
 

But IOs, procs & incarnates are pretty standard to see for lvl 50 builds. I’m more interested in testing what they’re capable of when taking advantage of anything that boosts their stats, which is why I don’t use Lore or Judgement. 

[Gobbledigook]

3 hours ago, Ston said:

 

I’ll leave that to you.
 

Brutes will do more ST DPS on just SOs. On my axe pylon test, the Brute averaged 30s faster than the Tanker when powers were restricted to having a max of 1 proc. (Tanker was still faster on trapdoor with those restrictions). 
 

But IOs, procs & incarnates are pretty standard to see for lvl 50 builds. I’m more interested in testing what they’re capable of when taking advantage of anything that boosts their stats, which is why I don’t use Lore or Judgement. 

Yet you state the Brute does less damage than the Tanker. Yet you also say the Brute will out dps the Tanker. Which is it?

 

Procs are even for whoever uses them. IO sets can be used by everyone. Musculature wont make that big of a difference and the Brute could go for Agility for extra recharge. You chose a dps incarnate for the Tanker but not for the Brute.

 

You won't do that because you know the Brute will win.

 

Being faster or even in clearing trash is not as big a deal as you guys would like to make out, Blasters/defenders/corruptors etc do that all day long. There is not a lot in it anyway and these tests are far from exact. The Brute will be faster on a hard target! Brute does more damage but the Tanker hits more targets with some of it's powers.

 

Procs have been known to be a problem but the Tanker Damage scale is not.

Edited December 14, 2022 by Gobbledegook

[Ston]

7 minutes ago, Gobbledegook said:

Yet you state the Brute does more damage than the Tanker. Yet you also say the Brute will out dps the Tanker. Which is it?

 

Procs are even for whoever uses them. IO sets can be used by everyone. Musculature wont make that big of a difference and the Brute could go for Agility for extra recharge. You chose a dps incarnate for the Tanker but not for the Brute.

 

You won't do that because you know the Brute will win.

 

Being faster or even in clearing trash is not as big a deal as you guys would like to make out, Blasters/defenders/corruptors etc do that all day long. There is not a lot in it anyway and these tests are far from exact. The Brute will be faster on a hard target! Brute does more damage but the Tanker hits more targets with some of it's powers.

 

Agility will lower proc rates which will result in lower average DPS. Will make the tests rely on even more RNG. I didn’t need the extra recharge anyway since the broadsword chain didn’t have gaps. 

 

Brutes barely benefit from using Musculature unlike a Tanker. You might gain like 10dmg on top of base+fury+procs. You can do more damage by using Vigor for accuracy and using an extra proc. 

 

My test already shows Brutes kill a pylon faster on average? So idk why you think I want to give bad results for them. I’m just trying to show the margin is too small for the amount of survivability Tankers have. 

Edited December 13, 2022 by Ston

[Gobbledigook]

1 minute ago, Ston said:

 

Agility will lower proc rates which will result in lower average DPS. Will make the tests rely on even more RNG. 

 

Brutes barely benefit from using Musculature unlike a Tanker. You might gain like 10dmg on top of base+fury+procs. You can do more damage by using Vigor for accuracy and using an extra proc. 

 

My test already shows Brutes kill a pylon faster on average? So idk why you think I want to give bad results for them. I’m just trying to show the margin is too small for the amount of survivability Tankers have. 

The margin is not small if you remove the procs.

 

This game is not balanced on procs but SO's...mostly. Procs are a problem.