(SR focused) Proposed change to dodge mechanics.

[Dnyd]

I have been thinking about how a Super Reflex person would work in the real world and wondered if it could translate into the game. If a person was dodging an attack but was still hit by the attack the damage would be reduced by the skill/speed they are capably of. 

 

While I recognize that having a cap for dodge makes sense in the playability of the game, most of the pool powers carry defense as well. making a Super Reflex hero easily capping their 45% dodge chance. While IOs help mitigate this issue by allowing you to add resistance, that feels more like a band-Aid than an actual solve. Below are a couple of the ideas I was kicking around. If these changes are done, removing RES to PSI DMG would make sense for balancing and logically. how could you physical movement RES a PSI attack?!? Put the RES PSI with Practice brawler. 

 

Options 1:  Let's take the auto power [Dodge] as an example. It's base RES (ALL but PSI) could be changed to 7%. (each of the 3 would add to this totaling 21% base RES). You could either add DEF enhancements to increase the chance that you will resist by 7%, or you could enhance it with RES to increase the amount of RES when it succeeds. 

 

Option 2: Change all DEF checks so that any failed dodge will result in a hit with a RES of a percentage above the cap. So, if you have the above 80% dodge chance and the dodge fails, it reduces the attacks DMG by 17.5 to 35%. This would likely need some fine tuning. Or, maybe it is half the amount to all players, but a SR auto ability can increase the amount from half (17.5%) to the full amount (35%).

 

I look forward to everyone's thoughts. 

Edited December 12, 2022 by Dnyd
Corrected Paragraph 2 to reflect moving reduces PSI DMG

[biostem]

Being really fast, but still getting hit, could actually make the attack cause more damage - instead of a bullet hitting you straight-on, it catches you as you're going mach 10 and is dragged sideways, causing a wider wound.  What would be more interesting, IMHO, would be some sort of "second chance" mechanic, where an attack hits you, but you kind of get another chance to have the enemy actually only hit an afterimage, or part of you that wasn't quite there.  maybe another mechanic could be a momentary "speed phase", where you generate a few stacks of a speed phase buff, and they can "eat" an attack made against you, instead of you actually being hit - similar to the enemy merely striking an afterimage and not the real you.

[Rudra]

As @biostem said, the faster two objects interact with each other, the more damage from the increased energy transferred between them. As for how could you physically dodge a mental attack? It depends on whether the mental attack is a visible blast that travels through the air to the target or if it is an instanteous mental assault with no travel time. I would also like to point out characters like Gambit that are so elusive that even their minds are difficult for psionic characters to pin down and affect.

[Nayeh]

1 hour ago, biostem said:

Being really fast, but still getting hit, could actually make the attack cause more damage - instead of a bullet hitting you straight-on, it catches you as you're going mach 10 and is dragged sideways, causing a wider wound.  What would be more interesting, IMHO, would be some sort of "second chance" mechanic, where an attack hits you, but you kind of get another chance to have the enemy actually only hit an afterimage, or part of you that wasn't quite there.  maybe another mechanic could be a momentary "speed phase", where you generate a few stacks of a speed phase buff, and they can "eat" an attack made against you, instead of you actually being hit - similar to the enemy merely striking an afterimage and not the real you.

 

Dealing with Afterimages be like: 🥶

 

I have an SR Tanker that uses a Water-based concept - dodging is something comparable to time dilation. Where things appear to move slower from my perspective.

Edited December 11, 2022 by Nayeh

[Zect]

7 hours ago, Dnyd said:

While IOs help mitigate this issue by allowing you to add resistance, that feels more like a band-Aid than an actual solve.

 

We'll leave aside the fact that you have failed to explain why, precisely, SR toons being able to easily softcap defenses is a problem to address this particular point.

 

The combo of IO resist bonuses and SR's own scaling resistance can result in some combat monsters that are not only i-capped but close to the resist hardcap as well. SR tankers in particular with tanker scalar defenses can shake off a fearsome amount of damage. The caveat, of course, is that this playstyle is highly skill-dependent and requires competent players to execute.

[Uun]

You seem to be unaware that SR already has damage resistance to S/L/F/C/E/N in the 3 auto powers. It kicks in when your health drops below 60% and increases as you lose hp, capping at 60% (3 x 20%).

[Doomguide2005]

3 hours ago, Uun said:

You seem to be unaware that SR already has damage resistance to S/L/F/C/E/N in the 3 auto powers. It kicks in when your health drops below 60% and increases as you lose hp, capping at 60% (3 x 20%).

This ^

And you can from there figure out how much resistance from sets and pool/epics you need to reach the resistance AT caps or the game's overall hard cap/limit at a given health level.  If I am at 40% health how much resistance have I got and therefore need to make the target number.

 

Edit/PS:  if you are going to tweak/change something work it through Elude perhaps.  Right now this power easily caps defense no sets/pools/epics or anything else involved, you don't even need to enhance it to hit the soft cap of 45% (and incarnate caps a Tanker at 60%) making the t9 as close to worthless as it gets for a t9 armor.

 

Edited December 11, 2022 by Doomguide2005

[MTeague]

In my often unhumble opinion, SR does need not any changes. It's already amazing, particularly adding in a Panacea Proc, Power Transfer Proc, and an Absorb Proc, to effectively add in some strong regen-ish-ness in between the rare hit that lands on you. Then also stack some IO resistance buffs... it gets beastly.

 

Admittedly, my /SR toons are Scrapper/Stalker, not tanks. But the posts above give me pretty good confidence SR is not hurting for tankage either. 

Edited December 11, 2022 by MTeague
fix grammar

[Wavicle]

SR is already one of the best armor sets in the game.

[Dnyd]

11 hours ago, Uun said:

You seem to be unaware that SR already has damage resistance to S/L/F/C/E/N in the 3 auto powers. It kicks in when your health drops below 60% and increases as you lose hp, capping at 60% (3 x 20%).

 

 

I am aware of this effect, and it seems more like a [Willpower] ability and less like a [SR] ability. 

 

In many comics, those with SR abilities are devastated when hit with the full force of an attack. usually being left defeated or Just alive enough to run away.  Not keep fighting at 20% HP because they have 90% resistance with IOs.  They rely on glancing blows, like when Spiderman got hit by the spinning blade things Hobgoblin threw at him. If he didn't almost dodge them, he wouldn't have lived. 

 

[biostem]

8 minutes ago, Dnyd said:

If he didn't almost dodge them, he wouldn't have lived.

It's a matter of interpretation - did you take less damage from an attack because you're protected by really thick armor plating, or because you're so agile every attack against you is just a glancing blow?

[Dnyd]

23 hours ago, biostem said:

Being really fast, but still getting hit, could actually make the attack cause more damage - instead of a bullet hitting you straight-on, it catches you as you're going mach 10 and is dragged sideways, causing a wider wound.  What would be more interesting, IMHO, would be some sort of "second chance" mechanic, where an attack hits you, but you kind of get another chance to have the enemy actually only hit an afterimage, or part of you that wasn't quite there.  maybe another mechanic could be a momentary "speed phase", where you generate a few stacks of a speed phase buff, and they can "eat" an attack made against you, instead of you actually being hit - similar to the enemy merely striking an afterimage and not the real you.

 

1. Are you asking that DEF gives you, when dodged, a 50/50 shot of either miss or double damage? 

 

Illusion controllers thematically have what you are asking for as far as after images

SS has phase

They might be able to make SR have a proc of absorb for every successful dodge, but then they would have to nerf it somewhere else. Soooo, I don't know about that one. 

[Wavicle]

11 minutes ago, Dnyd said:

 

 

I am aware of this effect, and it seems more like a [Willpower] ability and less like a [SR] ability. 

 

In many comics, those with SR abilities are devastated when hit with the full force of an attack. usually being left defeated or Just alive enough to run away.  Not keep fighting at 20% HP because they have 90% resistance with IOs.  They rely on glancing blows, like when Spiderman got hit by the spinning blade things Hobgoblin threw at him. If he didn't almost dodge them, he wouldn't have lived. 

 

the scaling damage res is meant to simulate the idea that when the shit hits the fan you run even faster so that no one can land a clean hit on you.

[Dnyd]

2 minutes ago, biostem said:

It's a matter of interpretation - did you take less damage from an attack because you're protected by really thick armor plating, or because you're so agile every attack against you is just a glancing blow?

 

That is exactly what I am saying . . . though, not EVERY hit is glancing, unless you get to 145% DEF. LOL

[Dnyd]

3 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

the scaling damage res is meant to simulate the idea that when the shit hits the fan you run even faster so that no one can land a clean hit on you.

 

While this does address my reasoning for the option 1 change. It doesn't address the post as a whole.  The purpose is to discuss how DEF works in reality and get it to behave the same in the game. This is why I proposed option 2 as global change to DEF mechanics. But with that global change SR would need revamped anyway. Otherwise you wouldn't even need IOs to make SR indestructible. 

The 60% RES at near dead plus the 21% due to having 80%DEF would give you 81% resistance.

[Wavicle]

Yes, I see that you’re requesting completely unnecessary power creep. Like I said, SR is already one of the best Armor sets in the game.

[Rudra]

Fine. Let's look at your options.

 

Option 1: Change Dodge to RES (All) 7%. Compared to say Invulnerability's equal tier Unyielding which gives 5% Smash/Lethal/Psionic resist and 10% Fire/Cold/Energy/Negative/Toxic resist. Invulnerability has no universal damage resist powers other than Unyielding until you grab the T9 Unstoppable which has a crash. So your option would give SR a base 21% resist all (edit: with all three powers you want to grant 7% damage resist working) on top of its DEF (All) and its scaling damage resist pre-enhancements compared to Invulnerability's 5%/10%. That's way power creep. (Reference for Unyielding as used by a Tanker for this post: https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=tanker_defense.invulnerability.unyeilding_stance&at=tanker )

 

Option 2: Apply DEF above cap as damage resist. Not sure if you are talking hard cap or soft cap, so I'm going with soft cap. Using your 80% DEF example, being hit still grants you 35% damage resist. Before you add in any enhancements or damage resist powers (edit: or scaling damage resist). Which is even more of a power boost than the 21% base resist of option 1.

 

Do you understand the opposition to your suggestion now? You are asking for the most evasive armor set to also have the best damage resist. That makes every other armor set in the game absolutely pointless.

Edited December 12, 2022 by Rudra

[biostem]

2 hours ago, Dnyd said:

1. Are you asking that DEF gives you, when dodged, a 50/50 shot of either miss or double damage? 

Well, what I meant was that being "really really fast" by itself can actually make an impact worse - if you happen to move INTO the attack, you're now taking a hit at projectile velocity X + your velocity Y, or if you're moving sideways and get it, that relatively clean hole from a bullet is dragged to become a gaping wound.  I didn't mean it to be taken in combination with the additional chance to dodge. 

[Dnyd]

35 minutes ago, biostem said:

Well, what I meant was that being "really really fast" by itself can actually make an impact worse - if you happen to move INTO the attack, you're now taking a hit at projectile velocity X + your velocity Y, or if you're moving sideways and get it, that relatively clean hole from a bullet is dragged to become a gaping wound.  I didn't mean it to be taken in combination with the additional chance to dodge. 

 

SR isn't that they are REALLY fast, it is that they are REALLY good at evading. 

[Doomguide2005]

Option 1 Dodge --> I don't increase def or resistance.  Assuming you're not proposing to also change ED/diminishing returns or enhancement scheduling I enhance both pushing both into the red.   What is your proposed base defense bonus for Dodge anyway?

 

Option 2 Dodge --> Not even sure exactly what you're proposing here.  Where do the 17.5 and 35 values come from and what are they values for?

[Dnyd]

2 hours ago, Rudra said:

Fine. Let's look at your options.

 

Option 1: Change Dodge to RES (All) 7%. Compared to say Invulnerability's equal tier Unyielding which gives 5% Smash/Lethal/Psionic resist and 10% Fire/Cold/Energy/Negative/Toxic resist. Invulnerability has no universal damage resist powers other than Unyielding until you grab the T9 Unstoppable which has a crash. So your option would give SR a base 21% resist all (edit: with all three powers you want to grant 7% damage resist working) on top of its DEF (All) and its scaling damage resist pre-enhancements compared to Invulnerability's 5%/10%. That's way power creep. (Reference for Unyielding as used by a Tanker for this post: https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=tanker_defense.invulnerability.unyeilding_stance&at=tanker )

 

Option 2: Apply DEF above cap as damage resist. Not sure if you are talking hard cap or soft cap, so I'm going with soft cap. Using your 80% DEF example, being hit still grants you 35% damage resist. Before you add in any enhancements or damage resist powers (edit: or scaling damage resist). Which is even more of a power boost than the 21% base resist of option 1.

 

Do you understand the opposition to your suggestion now? You are asking for the most evasive armor set to also have the best damage resist. That makes every other armor set in the game absolutely pointless.

 

 

Option 1: I stated in the paragraph above that PSI RES doesn't make sense anyway. You can't move to make active PSI DMG less. Also, the 7% was a number given. You can make it 3, 9, 30. it was an example. If you make it base line 3% with the ability to ENH RES instead of DEF. It gives More ENH options and a more dynamic build. 

 

Option 2: I am not sure if you read option 2. It, just like option 1, is a number given for reference to begin a discussion. Also, I added that maybe it would apply as 50% of the amount over the cap with SR [auto] powers being able to increase the percentage. But, like the other numbers, it can be anything. 1%, 1000%, whatever number you wish to imagine as it being balanced. 

 

Do you understand, that if you change how the Global DEF % works, it would have a positive impact on all sets. Any set that can build DEF over the cap would also benefit from this. Teams of bubble defenders would have capped of both. LOL

[Wavicle]

5 minutes ago, Dnyd said:

Teams of bubble defenders would have capped of both. LOL

lol is right. That would be insanely OP.

[Dnyd]

12 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

lol is right. That would be insanely OP.

 

 

There are already insane players that can solo almost anything.  Just because people could do it, doesn't mean they will. Besides, these groups already exist. They time their incarnate abilities and pick their power set so that my LV 20 SR scrapper with no ENH, didn't take any damage in a 54 mission. I was being attacked and even then took almost no damage. I've seen tanks solo 54 AVs while taking almost no DMG. so yeah. I don't think it will have a huge impact on the game. 

 

All that and the people that were like that would talk about grabbing their low level to go do, fill in the blank. People love this game, as I do. Even with this change, will I still play other power combos I have never tried before, sure will. Because, it's about being a hero in the end. 

[Wavicle]

2 minutes ago, Dnyd said:

 

 

There are already insane players that can solo almost anything.  Just because people could do it, doesn't mean they will. Besides, these groups already exist. They time their incarnate abilities and pick their power set so that my LV 20 SR scrapper with no ENH, didn't take any damage in a 54 mission. I was being attacked and even then took almost no damage. I've seen tanks solo 54 AVs while taking almost no DMG. so yeah. I don't think it will have a huge impact on the game. 

 

All that and the people that were like that would talk about grabbing their low level to go do, fill in the blank. People love this game, as I do. Even with this change, will I still play other power combos I have never tried before, sure will. Because, it's about being a hero in the end. 

this is a ridiculous argument “combining other things will get you crazy powerful so therefore ANY crazy buff is perfectly acceptable” lol No

[Rudra]

41 minutes ago, Dnyd said:

 

 

Option 1: I stated in the paragraph above that PSI RES doesn't make sense anyway. You can't move to make active PSI DMG less. Also, the 7% was a number given. You can make it 3, 9, 30. it was an example. If you make it base line 3% with the ability to ENH RES instead of DEF. It gives More ENH options and a more dynamic build. 

 

Option 2: I am not sure if you read option 2. It, just like option 1, is a number given for reference to begin a discussion. Also, I added that maybe it would apply as 50% of the amount over the cap with SR [auto] powers being able to increase the percentage. But, like the other numbers, it can be anything. 1%, 1000%, whatever number you wish to imagine as it being balanced. 

 

Do you understand, that if you change how the Global DEF % works, it would have a positive impact on all sets. Any set that can build DEF over the cap would also benefit from this. Teams of bubble defenders would have capped of both. LOL

You gave values in the OP. I used the given values. The sought discussion is being had. Everyone posting on this thread other than you is against the OP. Something something hint something.

 

(Also, yes, I read option 2. That is how I was able to summarize it.)

 

Do I realize that the proposed global defense change would benefit everyone? Yes. However, as your title says, the focus is improving SR. (The whole "SR focused" part of the title.) I also realize it benefits the enemies players face and can make SR enemies almost unkillable. On top of making an already rock solid armor set even more over the top.

 

14 minutes ago, Dnyd said:

There are already insane players that can solo almost anything.  Just because people could do it, doesn't mean they will. Besides, these groups already exist.

You argue that players won't munchkin characters and then point out that players munchkin characters. You killed your own argument.

 

Or to alter the presentation of @Wavicle's comment: Just because we already have excessive power creep in the game doesn't mean we should run for more power creep in the game.

Edited December 12, 2022 by Rudra
Edited to correct mispelled word.