Brute's Advantage

[Aracknight]

36 minutes ago, Rudra said:

 

 

You're just trolling the thread, aren't you? I'm disinclined to look up what "sesquipedalian" means. Do you have an actual valid complaint about the OP? Is there something Brutes do well compared to Tankers? Do Brutes have any advantage going for them mechanically or in game role?

 

I even gave you a means of getting me to shut down the thread. Your comments seem less aimed at actually dealing with the content of the OP and more aimed at just causing a disruption. So here is my question to you: What exactly is your point? What are you trying to say about Brutes in reference to the OP?

My points are:

 

-Brutes aren't the only AT that "need" their ATO to be competitive.

 

-My question about more damage negatively impacting Fury was an honest and clarifying one.

 

-When told I was missing the point, I asked a clarifying question with verbiage from the OP.

 

-Brutes are probably fine.  But I thought that yelling POWER CREEP at your suggestion, like everyone seems to do at every other suggestion people have made around here was too obvious and crass.

 

But, now that I consider it further, I can admit that while it wasn't my conscious intention to troll, I can see how that can be perceived given how myself and others who have been on the receiving end of having our suggestions shitcanned around here might feel, given a chance to reverse-shitcan a suggestion ourselves.

 

I'll see myself out.

 

 

[biostem]

24 minutes ago, megaericzero said:

For those worried about Fury not being 100% all the time

Here's the issue - how strong *should* a brute at 100% fury be?  Stronger than a scrapper?  Stronger than a stalker outside of their hidden AS?  Let's establish a baseline then go from there, otherwise the mechanic needs a revamp, because it isn't working as "intended"...

[megaericzero]

38 minutes ago, Rudra said:

It's Scrappers that get the chance for double damage. Tankers have been buffed and buffed and buffed. Brutes have been nerfed. Multiple times.

My bad. The point of that contrast was meant to be that I thought Brutes stood out as a more reliable DPS Scrapper, at least according to people I've played with, which would make it their niche. If damage is damage, I can see why the Brute comes off as a dollar-store Tanker.

 

19 minutes ago, biostem said:

Here's the issue - how strong *should* a brute at 100% fury be?  Stronger than a scrapper?  Stronger than a stalker outside of their hidden AS?  Let's establish a baseline then go from there, otherwise the mechanic needs a revamp, because it isn't working as "intended"...

Fair point. Personally, I'm not concerned about Brutes' performance; just throwing out random ideas.

Edited December 28, 2022 by megaericzero
fixing a typo

[aethereal]

2 hours ago, InvaderStych said:

ATO1 increases the passive chance by either 2% or 4% depending on Standard/Superior.

 

No.  ATO1 increases passive crit chance by 2% (minions/underlings) or 4% (lieutenants and up) for the Standard version, and 3% (minions/underlings) or 6% (lieutenants and up) for the Superior version.

 

2 hours ago, InvaderStych said:

 

ATO2 is a brief window of 50% increase, which is very good and hits often, but it is not a guarantee. Both Std/Superior offer the same bonus with a slight PPM rate increase from 2 to 3 for the Superior version.

 

The PPM increase isn't "slight"!  It improves the uptime of the proc by 50%!

 

It's a very common pattern to increase the PPM by 1 for the superior version of an ATO proc.  For example:  Blaster's Wrath is 4PPM standard/5PPM superior.  Defiant Barrage is 3PPM standard/4PPM superior.  Might of the Tanker is 5PPM standard/6PPM superior.  There are a bunch of other examples.

 

But 2PPM -> 3PPM is a much, much bigger difference than 5PPM -> 6PPM in a way that makes me think that the original devs didn't think very hard about this pattern of "+1 for superior version," and part of the current deal with the highest-end Scrappers being probably overpowered is the fact that the 3PPM version of Critical Strikes is a huge deal.  In contrast, Scrappers are probably underpowered for everyone who's not doing a PPM-optimized version of Superior Critical Strikes.

[Luminara]

Brutes have the higher Damage cap, 700%.  Capped Fury plus Damage enhancements plus Build Up plus Assault plus Incarnates plus set bonuses still doesn't get them close to their cap, whereas a tanker with the same buffs is nearly at his/her 500% cap.  And that's the brute's advantage.  Buffs which would be wasted on a tanker carry much greater value for a brute.  It requires teaming to gain that advantage, but there's nothing untoward about that.  This is still an MMORPG, despite the low population and tendency for many of us to focus on solo play, and with so many similarities between archetypes, team play is where differentiation becomes evident and important.  How each performs in a solo environment... well, not only does it not matter, as long as they're both performing well enough, but it would actually be detrimental to make brutes deal more damage solo simply to put them ahead of solo tankers because that would bleed over to team play and make brutes too strong on teams.

 

If you want to see your brute exceed tanker damage output, team.  Get buffed, get to the brute Damage cap and tell tankers to eat your rubber while you burn dust.

 

[biostem]

15 minutes ago, Luminara said:

It requires teaming to gain that advantage

No, it requires teaming with people with very specific buffs.  That tanker can easily gain access to -RES debuffs via IOs or PPPs, thereby effectively pushing them beyond that cap.  The question is, if you could have either a tanker or a brute on your team, which would you pick.  Ignore your own AT/powers for the moment, and assume you know nothing about the rest of the team.  Which do you select? 

 

On a slightly related note, I wonder what it'd look like if +DMG buffs also applied to the buff from fury...

Edited December 28, 2022 by biostem

[TheZag]

My brute hit with knockout blow for over 3200 while in a league (or was it 3600?) with all the buffs and debuffs.  There is no way my tanker could achieve that much.

 

[Rudra]

Let's take a look at Beheader.

 

Tanker base damage: 50.19. At 500% damage cap: 250.95

Brute base damage: 41.71. At 700% damage cap: 291.97. At 600% damage: 250.26.

 

So in order for the Brute's improved damage cap to even be relevant, you need teammates with powers to buff the Brute's damage. And they need to get the Brute above 600% to even match let alone overcome Tanker damage output. That calls for a rather specialized team to pull off. (Edit: Or a league using @TheZag's post as reference.) Sorry @Luminara. Usually I agree with your take on things. In this case though, I can't.

 

 

Edited December 28, 2022 by Rudra

[biostem]

8 minutes ago, TheZag said:

My brute hit with knockout blow for over 3200 while in a league (or was it 3600?) with all the buffs and debuffs.  There is no way my tanker could achieve that much.

How much of that damage was due to +DMG and how much was due to -RES.  Could more -RES make up the difference?  They're basically 2 sides of the same coin...

Edited December 28, 2022 by biostem

[TheZag]

1 minute ago, biostem said:

How much of that damage was due to +DMG and how much was due to _RES.  Could more -RES make up the difference?  They're basically 2 sides of the same coin...

 

I was at the damage cap and im sure the enemy was wrecked on resist.  But it wouldnt matter at that point what the resist was,  we would both be punching the same enemy and benefitting from any -res it had.

 

[biostem]

Just now, TheZag said:

I was at the damage cap and im sure the enemy was wrecked on resist.  But it wouldnt matter at that point what the resist was,  we would both be punching the same enemy and benefitting from any -res it had.

Not true, as -RES effectively puts you beyond the damage cap.  I'd also have to see specific build info to make sure we're comparing like-for-like.  I'm happy you did such big numbers, but without the proper context it's just an anecdote, (and under extremely specific circumstances to boot).  Even if I took you at your word, now let's compare a similar scenario but against multiple enemies, where the tanker enjoys larger AoEs...

[Luminara]

1 minute ago, biostem said:

That tanker can easily gain access to -RES debuffs via IOs or PPPs, thereby effectively pushing them beyond that cap.

 

You mean exactly the same IOs and *PP powers brutes has access to, which allow brutes to exceed their cap as well?  The options are identical across archetypes (Energy Mastery is the only *PP with a variance, tankers have Conserve Power, brutes have Superior Conditioning, neither can be slotted with -Res procs, so it's irrelevant in this context).  The brute still has the higher Damage cap, higher damage at the Damage cap and, thus, higher overall damage when equivalent -Res is factored.

[biostem]

22 minutes ago, Luminara said:

You mean exactly the same IOs and *PP powers brutes has access to, which allow brutes to exceed their cap as well?  The options are identical across archetypes (Energy Mastery is the only *PP with a variance, tankers have Conserve Power, brutes have Superior Conditioning, neither can be slotted with -Res procs, so it's irrelevant in this context).  The brute still has the higher Damage cap, higher damage at the Damage cap and, thus, higher overall damage when equivalent -Res is factored.

And?  It just means that that extra damage cap isn't as important.  And if we're just pulling scenarios out of our butts, then a tanker on a team with lots of -RES will do as well or better than a brute on a team with just +DMG.  That's my point.  You also fail to ignore the greater AoE range/size that tankers enjoy, if we're now talking about lots of spread out enemies...

[Luminara]

17 minutes ago, Rudra said:

So in order for the Brute's improved damage cap to even be relevant, you need teammates with powers to buff the Brute's damage. And they need to get the Brute above 600% to even match let alone overcome Tanker damage output. That calls for a rather specialized team to pull off.

 

+Damage buffs aren't exclusive to any archetype or character.  Controllers, defenders, masterminds, corruptors and Soldiers of Arachnos, more than one third of all archetypes, can buff +Damage.  Anyone with Assault or Vengeance can buff +Damage.  Half of the Lore pets buff +Damage.  This is a huge part of the complaints from players of support archetypes over the past couple of years, everyone can do everything, without specialized team compositions.

 

[Luminara]

Just now, biostem said:

It just means that that extra damage cap isn't as important.

 

250.95 (capped, per @Rudra's post) * 3 (300% -Res (capped)) = 752.85

291.97 (ditto) * 3 (also capped, cap is 300% for all archetypes) = 875.91

 

You were saying?  No, please, go on, continue explaining how the brute's higher damage cap is irrelevant because of -Res making tankers hit harder.  I'm dying to see where you go with this.

 

6 minutes ago, biostem said:

And if we're just pulling scenarios out of our butts, then a tanker on a team with lots of -RES will do as well or better than a brute on a team with just +DMG.

 

And the brute on the same team will also benefit from the same -Res.

 

You're not even comparing apples to oranges at this point, it's stove pipes to potted ferns.  Deliberately manufacturing a scenario in which one character is denied access to the same tools as another character doesn't prove anything, except that you're terrible at proving things.

 

Stop.  I want to respect you in the morning, and if this goes any further, I won't.

[biostem]

1 minute ago, Luminara said:

You were saying?

You're concocting a scenario in which both are damage capped.  I'm presenting one in which they aren't.  Have both at 500% then talk to me.  Have the tanker only get the -res and the brute only get +dmg.  I care about how things pan out in actual play, and this supposed brute damage  advantage becomes negligible, especially if the difference in tanker defensive values or other resources tied to their armor means they live but the brute dies.

[Rudra]

33 minutes ago, Luminara said:

 

+Damage buffs aren't exclusive to any archetype or character.  Controllers, defenders, masterminds, corruptors and Soldiers of Arachnos, more than one third of all archetypes, can buff +Damage.  Anyone with Assault or Vengeance can buff +Damage.  Half of the Lore pets buff +Damage.  This is a huge part of the complaints from players of support archetypes over the past couple of years, everyone can do everything, without specialized team compositions.

 

Take a Brute on a team of SoAs and have them also take Assault. Assault is +15%. Tactical Training: Assault is +15%. That's +30% per SoA. +210% from the 7 of them. Then add that to your Brute's 275% (using your explainer post for hitting 100% Fury as base). That's 485%. Still short of the Tanker's 500% damage cap, let alone the Brute's. If for some reason all 7 SoAs take the Support Core Embodiment incarnate ability instead of say Assault or Melee Hybrid powers, that is another +84%, 12% damage boost per SoA with Support, for a grand total of 569% damage. Above the Tanker's max cap, but still well below threshold to get the Brute caught up. So yeah, it takes a specialized team to get the Brute to even 600%, let alone the 700% cap.

 

Edit: Replace any one SoA with a Tanker to run damage comparisons? And that number drops by at least 15%.

 

Edit again: And all the while, that Tanker still has better everything else than the Brute. Better resists. Better HP. Better status protection/resists. Better END management. And the Brute despite all that buffing from the team is still not able to keep up with the Tanker.

Edited December 29, 2022 by Rudra
Edited to correct poor math.

[Zeraphia]

So from what I gather, people do not like the direction of buffing their secondary component, the lackluster resistances and the caps unattainability, but would rather focus on bringing it in line with other damage dealers.

 

Scrappers are supposed to be in the discussion of this equation. For every Tanker combination you can do, a Scrapper will out-DPS the exact same combination. Once you compare Brutes to Scrappers, you start to see more why they fell out of the general content meta. Brutes are given essentially Scrapper base defense levels, a much lower starting damage (even though it does ramp up to usually out-dps most Scrappers pre-50/incarnates), resistances caps they usually can't attain without heavily sacrificing their damage potential which is supposed to separate them from Tankers, although with the Tanker buffs, a lot of Tankers tend to out-damage them. 

 

If people want to go the damage route, I'd recommend improving the Brute base damage modifier slightly therefore you can get a higher max damage potential and a higher baseline for their damages. If Scrappers are supposed to be a 10/10 on damage, Tankers an 8/10, and Brutes a 9/10, then they should get enough base damage to not tread toes on Tanker damage (Brutes being firmly ahead), while also getting enough resistances and base stats to be distinctly different from Scrappers.

 

People seem to just think of their Fiery Aura fire farm brutes and use those as general rule sticks when I don't believe those comparisons are applicable for this kind of thread. Fiery Aura easily caps Fire Resistance to 90% even on Brutes. For the vast majority of Armor sets, most do not get you close to the cap on their damage resistances. Therefore, they fall woefully behind the damage-buffed Tankers in that aspect who have a much easier time obtaining their resistances and don't have to sacrifice much in their builds at all to attain high levels of damage.

 

Currently, they are only slightly tankier than Scrappers for most combinations, but do far less damage than them especially post-50. They also are significantly less tanky and out-damaged by Tanks.

Edited December 29, 2022 by Zeraphia

[Rudra]

I don't want Brutes to step on Scrappers' toes. I don't want Brutes to step on Tankers' toes. Somewhere along the way though, we went from not having Brutes stepping Tankers' toes to Tankers not only stepping on Brutes' toes, but walking all over them.

[TheZag]

If the tank and brute are on the same team and receive the same buffs and benefit from the same debuffs then the brute will have whatever the fury bar is over the tank.  If buffs brought the tank to +300% damage then they brought the brute to +300% also and the brute generally maintains 90% fury with relative ease meaning its damage buff will be +480% while the tank is at +300%.  I guess we could try and make a team that buffs the tank while ignoring the brute, but in that scenario anyone would out damage anyone else.  In a realistic scenario with equal(ish) buffs,  the brute will have fury% more damage buff than the tank.  Im not gonna pretend that a tank cant ever out DPS a brute when AoE is involved,  but for every non trivial encounter such as AVs, GMs, Hami, iTrials, ect.,  a brute will provide more DPS than an equally built and buffed tank.

 

These scenarios that have the tank somehow buffed up to the level of the brutes fury but the brute managed to miss out on those same buffs makes no sense.  The same is true with tanks somehow getting the benefit of -RES but the brute hits the same enemy and doesnt benefit?  All these examples that place the tank and brute on different teams or getting different buffs to point out that the tank is somehow stronger are utter nonsense.  In the 'example' that has the brute only reaching 569% damage and claiming the brute isnt caught up to the tank neglects to mention that the tank is only buffed to 369% from that same process.  Tanks dont magically pull 200% damage buffs out of their....places....in order to nullify the additional bonus brutes have from fury.

 

also as a side note,  is there something im missing about the damage cap?  everyone keeps saying tank is 500% and brute is 700% but im ingame right now and my combat attributes clearly max out at 400% and 600% respectively.

 

tank 

Spoiler

 

brute

Spoiler

 

 

[biostem]

I think the way to think about things is that a really pissed off brute should out-damage any other melee AT, but getting to that level of fury should be quite difficult - maybe fury should be a mechanic/resource that one needs to more actively build and spend.  Another approach could be to tie both their offensive AND defensive values to fury - making a brute into a true juggernaut once thoroughly pissed off...

[Rudra]

28 minutes ago, TheZag said:

If the tank and brute are on the same team and receive the same buffs and benefit from the same debuffs then the brute will have whatever the fury bar is over the tank.  If buffs brought the tank to +300% damage then they brought the brute to +300% also and the brute generally maintains 90% fury with relative ease meaning its damage buff will be +480% while the tank is at +300%.  I guess we could try and make a team that buffs the tank while ignoring the brute, but in that scenario anyone would out damage anyone else.  In a realistic scenario with equal(ish) buffs,  the brute will have fury% more damage buff than the tank.  Im not gonna pretend that a tank cant ever out DPS a brute when AoE is involved,  but for every non trivial encounter such as AVs, GMs, Hami, iTrials, ect.,  a brute will provide more DPS than an equally built and buffed tank.

 

These scenarios that have the tank somehow buffed up to the level of the brutes fury but the brute managed to miss out on those same buffs makes no sense.  The same is true with tanks somehow getting the benefit of -RES but the brute hits the same enemy and doesnt benefit?  All these examples that place the tank and brute on different teams or getting different buffs to point out that the tank is somehow stronger are utter nonsense.  In the 'example' that has the brute only reaching 569% damage and claiming the brute isnt caught up to the tank neglects to mention that the tank is only buffed to 369% from that same process.  Tanks dont magically pull 200% damage buffs out of their....places....in order to nullify the additional bonus brutes have from fury.

 

also as a side note,  is there something im missing about the damage cap?  everyone keeps saying tank is 500% and brute is 700% but im ingame right now and my combat attributes clearly max out at 400% and 600% respectively.

 

tank 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

brute

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

+400% bonus damage for Tankers would be 500% damage cap. Base line is 100%. +600% bonus damage for Brutes is 700% damage cap for same reason.

 

Also, your comparison of adding in Brute's Fury bar was already factored into my math above. It takes 602% damage (100% base + 502% buff from various sources) for the Brute to reach the same damage as the already capped at lower max Tanker.

Edited December 29, 2022 by Rudra
Edited to add 2 instances of "bonus".

[Zeraphia]

25 minutes ago, TheZag said:

If the tank and brute are on the same team and receive the same buffs and benefit from the same debuffs then the brute will have whatever the fury bar is over the tank.  If buffs brought the tank to +300% damage then they brought the brute to +300% also and the brute generally maintains 90% fury with relative ease meaning its damage buff will be +480% while the tank is at +300%.  I guess we could try and make a team that buffs the tank while ignoring the brute, but in that scenario anyone would out damage anyone else.  In a realistic scenario with equal(ish) buffs,  the brute will have fury% more damage buff than the tank.  Im not gonna pretend that a tank cant ever out DPS a brute when AoE is involved,  but for every non trivial encounter such as AVs, GMs, Hami, iTrials, ect.,  a brute will provide more DPS than an equally built and buffed tank.

 

These scenarios that have the tank somehow buffed up to the level of the brutes fury but the brute managed to miss out on those same buffs makes no sense.  The same is true with tanks somehow getting the benefit of -RES but the brute hits the same enemy and doesnt benefit?  All these examples that place the tank and brute on different teams or getting different buffs to point out that the tank is somehow stronger are utter nonsense.  In the 'example' that has the brute only reaching 569% damage and claiming the brute isnt caught up to the tank neglects to mention that the tank is only buffed to 369% from that same process.  Tanks dont magically pull 200% damage buffs out of their....places....in order to nullify the additional bonus brutes have from fury.

 

also as a side note,  is there something im missing about the damage cap?  everyone keeps saying tank is 500% and brute is 700% but im ingame right now and my combat attributes clearly max out at 400% and 600% respectively.

 

tank 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

brute

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

The basic amount of damage you do starts at 100% as a baseline. So if you have 400% damage added, you're at 500%.

[Luminara]

16 minutes ago, biostem said:

You're concocting a scenario in which both are damage capped.

 

I did not.  I said brutes have a 700% Damage cap and tankers have a 500% Damage cap, and at their respective caps, the brute deals more damage.  I presented no scenarios, I simply pointed out the numbers.  You and @Rudra are the ones throwing out situations, all of which appear to be deliberate attempts to portray brutes as struggling weaklings who are overshadowed by tankers.  No -Res for the brute, insisting that brutes can't hit their Damage cap without some kind of miracle team...

 

Don't lay that at my feet.  I'm correcting the misinformation I see, not twisting the facts to make an archetype look bad.

 

Speaking of which...

 

41 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Take a Brute on a team of SoAs and have them also take Assault. Assault is +15%. Tactical Training: Assault is +15%. That's +30% per SoA. +210% from the 7 of them. Then add that to your Brute's 275% (using your explainer post for hitting 100% Fury as base). That's 485%. Still short of the Tanker's 500% damage cap, let alone the Brute's.

 

275% is +Damage, not the total.  100% base plus 180% from 90% Fury plus 95% from Damage enhancements = 375%.

Discounting any other factor, doing nothing more than adjusting your figure to account for the base 100% Damage, the brute is at 585% in your hypothetical team.  If you substitute any tanker for the brute on that team, he/she is over-buffed by 85%.  His/her Build Up/Soul Drain/Rage/whatever is useless, whereas the brute still has 115% head room before hitting his/her Damage cap.  This means the brute can still benefit from those other powers, like Build Up.  Just Build Up would put the brute at 665%, a mere 35% short of the cap.  Maxing out Fury would reduce that gap to 15%.

 

Yes, it takes more than a single small Rage inspiration to hit that 700% cap, but Fury provides up to +200%, enhancements are good for another +95% (~128% if using Musculature Core Paragon), almost every primary has Build Up or a comparable Damage buff, so they don't actually need 600% +Damage, they only need ~200-225%.  And it doesn't take a special team to do that.

 

It's not as complicated or unusual as you make it out to be.

[Rudra]

42 minutes ago, Luminara said:

 

I did not.  I said brutes have a 700% Damage cap and tankers have a 500% Damage cap, and at their respective caps, the brute deals more damage.  I presented no scenarios, I simply pointed out the numbers.  You and @Rudra are the ones throwing out situations, all of which appear to be deliberate attempts to portray brutes as struggling weaklings who are overshadowed by tankers.  No -Res for the brute, insisting that brutes can't hit their Damage cap without some kind of miracle team...

 

Don't lay that at my feet.  I'm correcting the misinformation I see, not twisting the facts to make an archetype look bad.

 

Speaking of which...

 

 

275% is +Damage, not the total.  100% base plus 180% from 90% Fury plus 95% from Damage enhancements = 375%.

Discounting any other factor, doing nothing more than adjusting your figure to account for the base 100% Damage, the brute is at 585% in your hypothetical team.  If you substitute any tanker for the brute on that team, he/she is over-buffed by 85%.  His/her Build Up/Soul Drain/Rage/whatever is useless, whereas the brute still has 115% head room before hitting his/her Damage cap.  This means the brute can still benefit from those other powers, like Build Up.  Just Build Up would put the brute at 665%, a mere 35% short of the cap.  Maxing out Fury would reduce that gap to 15%.

 

Yes, it takes more than a single small Rage inspiration to hit that 700% cap, but Fury provides up to +200%, enhancements are good for another +95% (~128% if using Musculature Core Paragon), almost every primary has Build Up or a comparable Damage buff, so they don't actually need 600% +Damage, they only need ~200-225%.  And it doesn't take a special team to do that.

 

It's not as complicated or unusual as you make it out to be.

That changes my math to 669%, which is above the 602% threshold to catch up to Tankers. I sit corrected. (Edit: Still assuming those 7 SoAs all take Support Hybrid for some reason. And which is still a specialized team to get as many damage buffs squeezed in as I could.)

 

Edit: Also, I never called Brutes struggling weaklings overshadowed by Tankers. I said Brutes no longer have any advantages compared to Tankers. In general play, that still holds true. As long as you can pump up their damage buffs on a team/league though, that changes. Though in my opinion, that is strictly a niche advantage for an entire AT since it requires sufficient teammates with the ability to bolster the Brute's damage bonuses to catch up to and finally get past the Tanker in damage capability. I did however, say explain to me what advantage the Brute has over the Tanker, and this still counts. Not enough for me to delete or hide this thread, but enough for me to leave it as is pending other comments and for the devs to evaluate the merits of.

Edited December 29, 2022 by Rudra