Were Brutes that Badly Nerfed?

[Duckbutler]

13 hours ago, Gobbledigook said:

I would prefer the AoE to be removed. It was never asked for in the Tanker update and many including myself spoke out about it. They are not setting kill records single target but rather the added AoE is proving a problem. Tanking/taunting was never an issue before.

 

That, or it's so good everyone else's AoE needs to be brought up to tanker levels. Sentinels would say thank you, or they might if not for target caps. The outlier is tanks and I think the conservative approach is to partially revert the change that overtuned them.

 

On other parts of this discussion:

 

12 hours ago, Erratic1 said:

And its not like extra survivability cannot be turned into extra xp by upping the difficulty setting. As I noted upthread, I got through a full story arc and halfway through the next without realizing on my latest Tanker I had left it set higher from a TF I had run the night before. The benefit is there until levelling is done whereas the realm where Fury is putting you way out of ahead of other melees is quickly run through: Buy two hour long xp boosts, do DFB, Posi 1, and Posi 2 and now you are level 24. 

 

 

I think that's a good argument for adding a little extra durability to brutes. Most of my brutes get abandoned somewhere in that 20-40 range. It might be something they need regardless of the tanker changes. The first one where I really said "F this" was running a Moonfire task force and getting killed because of the punch-voke pulling threat on bosses while I was single targeting them. There was certainly more going on there, but I think the base point is sound. Someone with automatic, baked in extra threat might need a little extra durability.

 

Regarding the validity of the proc bombed tests... I would consider that a high end build. You need the best balance to be on the high end because there's a lot of other variables throughout the low end of the player spectrum. There's player skill, limited resources to put into builds, and late blooming builds to consider. The low to mid levels just need to not suck. The pylon tests are very artificial because it's rarer to spend that much time on a sustained single target. Trapdoor tests probably need to be given more weight because it's probably closer to simulating actual gameplay.

 

If you look at @Ston's tests it shows a few weird things. I'm pinging him so he can correct what I'm getting wrong here. It seems like the tests really demonstrate which sets take best advantage of the invention system and which sets fall under the floor created by pool and epic powers. This seems to be a bigger problem for tankers and brutes than it is for scrappers and stalkers. His is a very rational approach. Procs, pools, and epics do exist and even if they get adjusted they aren't getting deleted so they will continue to need to be accounted for and included in any comparison. I suspect that changes to the proc system would bring the various power sets available to an AT more in line rather than changing the relationship between two ATs that both favor leveraging the procs.

[Haijinx]

2 hours ago, Infinitum said:

Energ Aura, Shield, and SR aren't gimped. - You mentioned energy. Energy is better on the Stalker than scrapper.  Plus there are a few others I have already mentioned. 

Eng aura is better on Stalker 

 

Combine the general low threat level of stalkers, a stun aura vs slow aura, and a constant 20% recharge buff even out of combat vs a varible 5% per enemy within 8 ft. 

 

Plus it's the easiest of the Stalker sets to see during hide for the player.  The glow effect giving you a sort of silhouette nimbus.  This is great if you are in your 50s and can't actually see where your character is.

Edited April 3 by Haijinx

[ScarySai]

3 hours ago, Infinitum said:

Energy is better on the Stalker than scrapper.

 

It's really not.

[Infinitum]

12 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

 

It's really not.

If you are building the stalker correctly and utilizing the Stalker ATO to it's fullest potential there is no way a Scrapper can pull in as many double energy focused ETs combined with the AS on the stalker it's a monster no comparable Scrapper can compete with.  It's all but a guarantee to have consistent Energy focused ETs almost every other attack with the proper build and attack chain.

 

Thats not saying the scrapper isn't good because it is.. It's just not as good as the stalker. 

[ScarySai]

8 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Stalker ATO to it's fullest potential there is no way a Scrapper can pull in as many double energy focused ETs combined with the AS on the stalker

 

It's more, lol. 

 

And that was an old build.

 

So many people have these assumptions and nothing to back them. I thought stalker was superior before I tried scrapper, and proceeded to admit I was wrong.

Edited April 3 by ScarySai

[Infinitum]

3 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

 

It's more, lol. 

 

And that was an old build.

 

So many people have these assumptions and nothing to back them. I thought stalker was superior before I tried scrapper, and proceeded to admit I was wrong.

I'm not seeing anything there my stalkers can't do and none of mine are Rad. 

 

And again it is very good, but if you leverage the stalker ATOs correctly there no way a scrapper can reach that same potential. 

[Haijinx]

9 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

I'm not seeing anything there my stalkers can't do and none of mine are Rad. 

 

And again it is very good, but if you leverage the stalker ATOs correctly there no way a scrapper can reach that same potential. 

Well you don't get whirling hands I suppose.  

 

Of course rhe Stalker version gets Assasins strike, so you don't have to use that lame barrage animation

 

Course the Assasin strike animation for EM is kinda bad too.  But at least it hits way harder than anything other than TF or ET, let's see a Scrapper do that.

[Infinitum]

4 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Well you don't get whirling hands I suppose.  

 

Of course rhe Stalker version gets Assasins strike, so you don't have to use that lame barrage animation

 

Course the Assasin strike animation for EM is kinda bad too.  But at least it hits way harder than anything other than TF or ET, let's see a Scrapper do that.

Power crash has the best damage scalar on stalker. When you need an aoe it's a fine go-to. But for EM the thrill is in the ST - and there are other ways to get aoe if you need it. 

 

For that pylon test it's ST all the way. 

[Haijinx]

Of course not having Whirling Hands saves you from throwing up whirling hands and looking like a fool in the first place ..

[Haijinx]

4 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Power crash has the best damage scalar on stalker. When you need an aoe it's a fine go-to. But for EM the thrill is in the ST - and there are other ways to get aoe if you need it. 

 

For that pylon test it's ST all the way. 

Pylon tests unrealisticly favor scrappers anyway. 

 

Since Stalkers get a team based Crit bonus.

[Lunar Ronin]

16 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Pylon tests unrealisticly favor scrappers anyway. 

 

Since Stalkers get a team based Crit bonus.

 

Yeah, a lot of people either don't know or entirely ignore that Stalkers get a crit bonus for being on teams, that actually puts them slightly ahead of Scrappers.

[Indystruck]

do love how often "here's some proof in the form of video/spreadsheets/etcetera" happens only to get hit with the "nuh-uh"

[ScarySai]

7 minutes ago, Indystruck said:

do love how often "here's some proof in the form of video/spreadsheets/etcetera" happens only to get hit with the "nuh-uh"

 

Stalker ato is incapable of firing even half as often, but somehow it's better, lol.

 

It has an icd, before one of you try to miscorrect me with the ppm.

Edited April 3 by ScarySai

[Infinitum]

Just now, Indystruck said:

do love how often "here's some proof in the form of video/spreadsheets/etcetera" happens only to get hit with the "nuh-uh"

That was just proof that it's good on a scrapper. We already knew that.   

 

I have 2 EM stalkers that could pull similar times - one slightly under 60 seconds.

 

AS TF FET EP/BS AS EP/BS FET EP/BS AS

Repeat - it's entirely possible to drop the EP/BS occasionally for the FET to enter the rotation faster and more often - depends on how much recharge you are pulling. 

[ScarySai]

3 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

I have 2 EM stalkers that could pull similar times - one slightly under 60 seconds.

 

I reliably pull sub 60 on the new build. The point was to show you how reliably scrapper can get double focus.

 

And let's be real, on your stalker's best day, it isn't matching a bio or fire armor energy scrapper on 4* with all those buffs and debuffs flying around.

Edited April 3 by ScarySai

[Indystruck]

10 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

That was just proof that it's good on a scrapper. We already knew that.   

 

I have 2 EM stalkers that could pull similar times - one slightly under 60 seconds.

 

okay, then go record it, thanks

[Infinitum]

2 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

The point was to show you how reliably scrapper can get double focus

And again - already knew that - I have both - but you already knew that.

 

Either way stalker rarely misses - usually because of human error on my part. 

 

3 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

And let's be real, on your stalker's best day, it isn't matching a bio or fire armor energy scrapper on 4* with all those buffs and debuffs flying around.

There's no reason why it wouldn't. 

 

The only other factor at that point is how you leverage the ATO to increase the amount of Double focuses you get - not to mention regularly having triple build up because of the other stalker ATO proc. 

[ScarySai]

1 minute ago, Infinitum said:

And again - already knew that

 

1 hour ago, Infinitum said:

If you are building the stalker correctly and utilizing the Stalker ATO to it's fullest potential there is no way a Scrapper can pull in as many double energy focused ETs

 

???

 

Just take the L, man.

Edited April 3 by ScarySai

[Infinitum]

1 minute ago, ScarySai said:

 

 

???

 

Just take the L, man.

 

Keep pretending Sai. 😉

[Shin Magmus]

"Feels fine to me"

[ScarySai]

"The meta is wrong, but I will do absolutely nothing to prove it."

[arcane]

Oh great, Shin and Sai are bullying everyone else again. 

[AmrasNotHere]

Sources: Trust me bro

 

Always wins in the end 

[Videra]

31 minutes ago, arcane said:

Oh great, Shin and Sai are bullying everyone else again. 

 

Shrimply disengage.

Also, Infinitum, I love you, but stop doing the 'Source: Trust Me Bro' nonsense.

[Infinitum]

3 minutes ago, Videra said:

 

Shrimply disengage.

Also, Infinitum, I love you, but stop doing the 'Source: Trust Me Bro' nonsense.

I'm not, Sai has just forgotten history too easily and it's not worth my time to dig up old discord posts to prove anything that plenty of people saw me do.   Keep in mind we haven't always been able to record and post videos.  I first did it in closed beta then shortly after in open beta, then live.  Then I moved on. 

 

Also not worth derailing this further for a point that has nothing to do with Brutes/Tankers ultimately.