Were Brutes that Badly Nerfed?

[Infinitum]

9 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

Real data point here: Fury decays. If you have to rest as a Brute, you are doing inferior damage for need to rebuild Fury. You are now hitting fewer targets for less damage. If Tankers had to build up the size of their AoEs....

I don't rest. It's victory or death. And death is rare. lol. 

 

My only problem with fury is how you can't hit and hold 100%.  That's a problem honestly.  Generating it is a non issue though. 

[Wavicle]

13 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

Real data point here: Fury decays. If you have to rest as a Brute, you are doing inferior damage for need to rebuild Fury. You are now hitting fewer targets for less damage. 

in actual play this is a non issue. Fury spikes so quickly you’ll barely notice a difference.

[Erratic1]

27 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

I think you are unnecessarily carrying this to the extreme there - that just is not nor ever will be the case.  I am currently leveling 2 brutes that I have a tanker counterpart. That I am having more fun on the brute - because they do more in your face damage up front and there's also an excitement from playing on the edge of victory or defeat and biting off more than you can chew occasionally - and still winning.  I like the brute better in those cases. 

I was running my latest Tanker though the Nance/Adair clone arc and at one point thought, "I'm not moving that much more slowly than on a brute." 

 

Then I wondered why oranges kept showing up and remembered the night before someone on the Posi 1 I was leading had asked for +1 and I had forgot to set myself back to 0. Pretty sure I would have noticed sooner on a Brute.

[Erratic1]

9 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

I don't rest. It's victory or death. And death is rare. lol. 

 

My only problem with fury is how you can't hit and hold 100%.  That's a problem honestly.  Generating it is a non issue though. 

 

I look at 100 Fury like I look at 150mph on my car's speedometer--ain't never gonna happen.

[Infinitum]

9 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

 

I look at 100 Fury like I look at 150mph on my car's speedometer--ain't never gonna happen.

But it should be hittable and sustainable. 

[Gobbledigook]

3 hours ago, Erratic1 said:

 

Has anybody asked for such? Or is this just to demand ignoring Brutes doing less damage than the tanking primary AT?

Actually they have. Yet again you are cherry picking to incite argument. Have fun lol.

[Erratic1]

1 minute ago, Gobbledigook said:

Actually they have. Yet again you are cherry picking to incite argument. Have fun lol.

 

If they had, you'd have quoted them.

 

Bye-bye!

[Gobbledigook]

3 hours ago, Lunar Ronin said:

 

Tankers do a lot more AoE damage than Stalkers.  Amusingly, a few people have told me that Stalkers are not welcome on advanced mode speed running teams because "they don't do enough damage."  Yet, they'll take Scrappers and Tankers.  Things that make you go "Hmm."

Yet a Stalker will take a hard target down in half the time of a Tanker or less. Has the game become all about AoE?

Edited April 2 by Gobbledigook

[Gobbledigook]

3 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

 

If they had, you'd have quoted them.

 

Bye-bye!

Just reported this incident to the Mod. I believe you are being antagonistic and it needs to end.

[Erratic1]

2 minutes ago, Gobbledigook said:

Just reported this incident to the Mod. I believe you are being antagonistic and it needs to end.

You dropped in to claim the person you accused of cherry-picking, then downvoted, then made a production about notifying the mods about is being antagonistic?

 

I asked a straightforward question of you and got accusations of in incitement. 

 

Remind me who is being antagonistic here.

[Gobbledigook]

5 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

You dropped in to claim the person you accused of cherry-picking, then downvoted, then made a production about notifying the mods about is being antagonistic?

 

I asked a straightforward question of you and got accusations of in incitement. 

 

Remind me who is being antagonistic here.

I gave you a fair thumbs down on one of your replies to which you then childishly jumped to some of my older posts and gave them all thumbs down lol.

 

You replies serve no purpose whatsoever other than to provoke. This is yet another example.

 

I now feel you are harassing me and need you stop the bullying behaviour please.

Edited April 2 by Gobbledigook

[Maelwys]

25 minutes ago, Gobbledigook said:

I now feel you are harassing me and need you stop the bullying behaviour please.

Disagreeing with someone is not bullying...

And to be fair, there is a [Citation Needed] on some of those earlier claims.
 

Quote

Quote

Quote

Do you really want the old Tanker back?

Has anybody asked for such? 

Actually they have. 

I mean, we get some nutjobs on the forums (myself included!) and I'm sure at some point just about everything has been asked for... but at present I'm not aware of a big movement of players demanding the devs repeal the Tanker changes.

And as has been pointed out before, Brutes still deal more raw damage than Tankers in terms of Single Target and AoE.
Tanker's get the arc/radius boost, which definitely makes them more valuable versus groups of foes (and by extension, more attractive to most teams) but there are plenty of cases where Brutes have the damage output edge. Such as Levelling up, Soloing; and AV/GM fights.

Personally I'm firmly in the "Buff Brutes" camp... but if the Devs did decide to lower the Tanker Arc/Radius buff but leave the higher damage modifier as-is I'd not lose any sleep over it.

[Wavicle]

The radius and target increase was intended to make them better at tanking. It’s more likely they’ll keep those but reduce the damage.

[Maelwys]

1 minute ago, Wavicle said:

The radius and target increase was intended to make them better at tanking. It’s more likely they’ll keep those but reduce the damage.

Mmm. Likewise though I believe the damage scalar buff was designed to make Tankers better at soloing and/or leveling up.

Perhaps a rework of Gauntlet to operate like Vigilance (damage buff when <X teammates, arc/radius buff when >X teammates) might work...?
However any adjustment presupposes that the devs actually consider Tankers to be overperforming currently.

[Gobbledigook]

5 minutes ago, Maelwys said:

Disagreeing with someone is not bullying...

And to be fair, there is a [Citation Needed] on some of those earlier claims.
 

I mean, we get some nutjobs on the forums (myself included!) and I'm sure at some point just about everything has been asked for... but at present I'm not aware of a big movement of players demanding the devs repeal the Tanker changes.

And as has been pointed out before, Brutes still deal more raw damage than Tankers in terms of Single Target and AoE.
Tanker's get the arc/radius boost, which definitely makes them more valuable versus groups of foes (and by extension, more attractive to most teams) but there are plenty of cases where Brutes have the damage output edge. Such as Levelling up, Soloing; and AV/GM fights.

Personally I'm firmly in the "Buff Brutes" camp... but if the Devs did decide to lower the Tanker Arc/Radius buff but leave the higher damage modifier as-is I'd not lose any sleep over it.

It is not the first time. They spammed me with thumbs down as a reaction. There was intent.

 

Do i really need to search through posts and not just take my word for it? I am not lying, after all it is just a GAME. It has been stated in previous posts that Tanker changes should be rolled back or the damage scale reduced back to previous. 

[GM Tock]

Let's just get back on topic, please. 

[Gobbledigook]

11 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

The radius and target increase was intended to make them better at tanking. It’s more likely they’ll keep those but reduce the damage.

I would prefer the AoE to be removed. It was never asked for in the Tanker update and many including myself spoke out about it. They are not setting kill records single target but rather the added AoE is proving a problem. Tanking/taunting was never an issue before.

[Maelwys]

5 minutes ago, Gobbledigook said:

 Tanking/taunting was never an issue before.

Large hordes of mobs (ITF etc) would have been more difficult to hold the attention of before; and there are some Arcs with multiple EBs/AVs that could in theory one-shot a squishy; so I can sort of see the benefit of it.

That said, I agree that none of my Tankers over the years have ever had issues keeping ~10 Foes taunted at a time. Even the OG Energy Melee one that dropped Whirling Hands.
 

Edited April 2 by Maelwys

[Gobbledigook]

28 minutes ago, Maelwys said:

Large hordes of mobs (ITF etc) would have been more difficult to hold the attention of before; and there are some Arcs with multiple EBs/AVs that could in theory one-shot a squishy; so I can sort of see the benefit of it.

That said, I agree that none of my Tankers over the years have ever had issues keeping ~10 Foes taunted at a time. Even the OG Energy Melee one that dropped Whirling Hands.
 

I can see the benefit of it but i do question if it was actually needed. We do have Taunt also.

[Erratic1]

1 hour ago, Maelwys said:

Tanker's get the arc/radius boost, which definitely makes them more valuable versus groups of foes (and by extension, more attractive to most teams) but there are plenty of cases where Brutes have the damage output edge. Such as Levelling up, Soloing; and AV/GM fights.

 

*Thinks about his Bio/Rad Melee Tanker who lives in Offensive stance and how much mileage he gets out of the extra survivability while using two damage aura on top of the Offensive stance* 

 

And its not like extra survivability cannot be turned into extra xp by upping the difficulty setting. As I noted upthread, I got through a full story arc and halfway through the next without realizing on my latest Tanker I had left it set higher from a TF I had run the night before. The benefit is there until levelling is done whereas the realm where Fury is putting you way out of ahead of other melees is quickly run through: Buy two hour long xp boosts, do DFB, Posi 1, and Posi 2 and now you are level 24. 

 

I can assure you, not a single one of my Brute tosses out the following numbers at the same level as the scrapper I was playing was doing so:

 

[Jacke]

I find myself in the odd position of at least partly defending Jack Emmert and Castle, flawed men and developers though they be.

 

The good that both did is still somewhere in the game, despite their obvious faults.  I figure Castle earned his posting to Recluse's Victory.  (But Stateman killed by a punk like Darrin Wade...?!?  That's just wrong...evil.)

 

Castle thinking Masterminds were going to be the Red-side Tanker...?  Must have been thinking there were like Illusion Controllers with their Phantom Army.  Then MMs were pre-nerfed by having their Tier 1 and Tier 2 Henchmen downlevelled from the MM.  Nothing like kicking out the feet from under their new "Redside Tanker".  No wonder Brutes were seen as taking that role.

 

If side-switching was never added to City, Red-side would be even more of a ghost-town than it is now.  And making all ATs available Blueside, Redside, and Goldside, and having side-switching just makes sense, as does Powerset proliferation, especially considering Comics source material.

 

And it makes it possible to properly compare ATs and Powersets and see the issues and flaws that were always there.  Thus, this topic.  😺

[ScarySai]

11 hours ago, Infinitum said:

That's crazy. And shows their ignorance.  There are a few classes of stalkers that outdo their scrapper counterpart by a fairly large margin - because their ATOs are much more suited to how stalkers function. 

 

Energy melee for instance is sick on a stalker. Combine that with Shield and you have an aoe stalker that's just rude. 

 

Electric Melee is another. 

 

Bio and fire armor are gimped on stalkers, and that's before we factor in how far ahead axe, tw and energy are on scrappers than anything stalkers have.

 

If we're talking optimized 4* teams, it makes sense that stalkers and controllers fall off in terms of desirability.

Edited April 3 by ScarySai

[Snarky]

13 hours ago, Infinitum said:

I don't rest. It's victory or death. And death is rare. lol. 

 

My only problem with fury is how you can't hit and hold 100%.  That's a problem honestly.  Generating it is a non issue though. 

Soooooo…….  Glad you like Brutes

 

This is the “entire Brute nerf” in one sock

 

The perspective from a former Brute ( now mostly Blaster/some Corr) player;   “Some whiny Scrapper players showed formulas that indicated on edge cases with certain powersets Brutes could do more damage than Scrappers.  The Devs rewrote Fury so it was easy to get and impossible to peg the bar to the top”

 

Brutes used to have to use tricks to build and MAINTAIN Fury.  Constantly fighting and agroing mobs.  It was glorious. Now….yawn. 
 

To add insult to injury now Tanks out damage Brutes.  Tanks and Scrappers both got great ATOs and one of the Brute ATOs is only useful if you are do bad a player you keep crayons next to your game so you have something to eat. 

[Infinitum]

6 hours ago, ScarySai said:

 

Bio and fire armor are gimped on stalkers, and that's before we factor in how far ahead axe, tw and energy are on scrappers than anything stalkers have.

 

If we're talking optimized 4* teams, it makes sense that stalkers and controllers fall off in terms of desirability.

Energ Aura, Shield, and SR aren't gimped. - You mentioned energy. Energy is better on the Stalker than scrapper.  Plus there are a few others I have already mentioned. 

[Erratic1]

4 hours ago, Snarky said:

Soooooo…….  Glad you like Brutes

 

This is the “entire Brute nerf” in one sock

 

The perspective from a former Brute ( now mostly Blaster/some Corr) player;   “Some whiny Scrapper players showed formulas that indicated on edge cases with certain powersets Brutes could do more damage than Scrappers.  The Devs rewrote Fury so it was easy to get and impossible to peg the bar to the top”

 

Brutes used to have to use tricks to build and MAINTAIN Fury.  Constantly fighting and agroing mobs.  It was glorious. Now….yawn. 
 

To add insult to injury now Tanks out damage Brutes.  Tanks and Scrappers both got great ATOs and one of the Brute ATOs is only useful if you are do bad a player you keep crayons next to your game so you have something to eat. 

 

Waiting for Snarky to break out in song...

 

Now and then I think of all the times Brutes got screwed over,

But had us believing it was always something we had done.

 

And I don't wanna live that way,

Trying to reach maximum fury.

I just had to let it go, 

And you won't catch me hung up on some AT that I used to know.

 

 

Edited April 3 by Erratic1