Asymmetrical Patterns please

[Hedrondesign]

I swore someone told me there was a thread or something for this but I could not find it. Please, especially after the shoulders, gloves and boots change to be individually applied, we still don't have a simple left right color pattern for tights etc. We have a mask option that is 90 percent (it doesn’t go down the entire neck) and with the shoulders boots and gloves I can make all the right ones a color and all the left ones a color but then I cannot make a right left color divided torso and legs. Sometimes I still cannot believe this wasn't added while the game was live originally. Please can this happen. I know it may not be priority but it is one pattern for three body type legs and three body type torsos. Even if it is only for tights and not for shirts and baggy robes etc.

 

Fin.

[srmalloy]

Changing this requires reworking the upper and lower body definitions. Right now, with a very few exceptions, all textures and patterns applied to the body apply to one side, and are mirrored onto the other; this is why costume parts and patterns are symmetrical. There is nothing defining the other half of the body; it's just a mirror of the one half that's in the database. There was already a structure in the database for asymmetrical arms, and the HC staff extended that to gloves, boots, and shoulders -- the low-hanging fruit. The body will be much harder to do.

[Glacier Peak]

I do love asymmetrical patterns! I'm supportive of this suggestion. 

[Rudra]

When it comes to patterns, those are just texture maps. So there would need to be specifically created texture maps for the asymetrical patterns. And each pattern would be locked in what it was just like now. It's not like the gloves and boots which are separate model pieces attached to the base model. (I'd love to have more patterns to play with, and mixing and matching them would be even better, but it wouldn't be like creating a new definition to split boots and gloves.)

[Hedrondesign]

On 1/15/2023 at 10:08 AM, srmalloy said:

Changing this requires reworking the upper and lower body definitions. Right now, with a very few exceptions, all textures and patterns applied to the body apply to one side, and are mirrored onto the other; this is why costume parts and patterns are symmetrical. There is nothing defining the other half of the body; it's just a mirror of the one half that's in the database. There was already a structure in the database for asymmetrical arms, and the HC staff extended that to gloves, boots, and shoulders -- the low-hanging fruit. The body will be much harder to do.

Well this explains why it has been this long without it happening. I am curious then if the one mask that is right left colors was different or just because it was a smaller thing thus easy to be in the game. Hmm. Maybe something like the chest details that cover most of the torso could be added at least. The chest detail over tights would have the left right pattern with pickable colors instead of the actual torso? Of course legs would be another matter but at least we could have something? There are several chest details like roman armor etc tha almost fully cover the torso already I would think it is possible to add one more but of course I could be completely wrong. I have no insight as to the challenge.

Edited January 18, 2023 by Hedrondesign
spelling, clerification

[srmalloy]

Detail 1 and Detail 2 for the head are additional submodels added to the base body, so they can be asymmetric. It's the torso and legs that are stored as a single side, forcing all their patterns to be symmetrical.

[aethereal]

12 hours ago, srmalloy said:

Detail 1 and Detail 2 for the head are additional submodels added to the base body, so they can be asymmetric. It's the torso and legs that are stored as a single side, forcing all their patterns to be symmetrical.

There are plenty of asymmetrical head patterns, too, not just detail 1 and detail 2.  Both the base face and the colors that you can apply to the face are asymmetrical for a variety of patterns.

 

It obviously would require coding for chest and lower-body patterns to be asymmetrical, but there's no reason to believe that the coding challenge is insurmountable.

[Rudra]

The asymmetrical patterns accessible on the Face menu's option drop down are texture maps. Just like the Tops with Skin patterns. There is no need for new body part definitions to be coded to apply model parts for those. You simply need to make new texture maps of asymmetrical design for each part of the model without model addons that you want the asymmetrical patterns for. And those new maps would need to be made three different ways to fit the current base character models. Then it would simply be a matter of adding them to the game's character creator library. However, you will still find yourself limited to a single color for the new patterns on your "with skin" options, only getting access to two colors for standard options. If you want more colors than that, then the models would need to be reworked for how the colors and maps are applied to them.

Edited January 18, 2023 by Rudra
Edited for clarity.

[General Idiot]

The textures used for upper and lower body are inherently symmetrical though. The game quite literally only has a texture for half the body and just mirrors it to render the other half. It's not a case of 'simply' making an asymmetrical texture because it's not the texture causing the limitation. Significant parts of the costume system would need to be rebuilt to make it even possible for those particular costume parts to be asymmetrical, long before it gets anywhere near anything relating to textures.

 

Now that's not to say it's impossible because it's not. But you're seriously underestimating the work required. If you look over at Rebirth, they have asymmetrical costumes. But that was months if not years of work on the part of their devs and last I checked they're not even finished it yet.

[biostem]

Since torso/arms & wasit/legs textures are tintable, that means that those color values are "injected" into their application, no?  If so, maybe an easier approach would be to allow users to insert a different set of colors before the mirroring occurs, so you don't have to mess with the mirroring, but can still get some degree of asymmetry...

[Rudra]

20 minutes ago, General Idiot said:

The textures used for upper and lower body are inherently symmetrical though. The game quite literally only has a texture for half the body and just mirrors it to render the other half. It's not a case of 'simply' making an asymmetrical texture because it's not the texture causing the limitation. Significant parts of the costume system would need to be rebuilt to make it even possible for those particular costume parts to be asymmetrical, long before it gets anywhere near anything relating to textures.

 

Now that's not to say it's impossible because it's not. But you're seriously underestimating the work required. If you look over at Rebirth, they have asymmetrical costumes. But that was months if not years of work on the part of their devs and last I checked they're not even finished it yet.

Not true. Otherwise the female strapless top would be the same front and back. And it most definitely is not.

 

Edit: Not unless the map is left or right side and then is mirrored. However, given the difference between front and back for several options, the map has to be more complete than just half the model's section unless the mapping is done side to side.

 

Edit again: Also, I never said it wouldn't be a lot of work. Making a texture map, especially one that has to work across three very different character models, is a lot of work. I only said that the model does not need new definitons to make use of new texture maps and those maps could be asymmetrical. (I've never seen a texture map that was only for left or right sides and then mirrored, so my post is based on the front-back maps I am used to seeing. So are the CoX texture maps left or right side only?)

Edited January 18, 2023 by Rudra

[aethereal]

They're left/right mirrored, not front/back.

 

That said, I think people continue to make too much of the coding work necessary to make them unmirrored.  There are plenty of parts of the costume that don't use mirroring.  I don't think it's a huge amount of work: I think the problem is, okay, let's say they unlock this technological capability. Then what?  HC for whatever reason has been reluctant to greatly expand the costume options.  Who's going to make and QA some giant number of asymmetrical textures in order to make this change pay off?

[Hedrondesign]

On 1/18/2023 at 9:16 PM, aethereal said:

They're left/right mirrored, not front/back.

Yep once this was explained It really made sense to me the issue. Hence my "band aid" solution of maybe adding a chest detail that covers the torso of tights, like some of the armor overlays in that section do but made to be right left colored. Of course this does not deal with the legs. As far as making many paterns Personally just a left right solid is all I am suggesting. While other patterns would be fantastic I would not expect so many to be made. I think my newest level 50 will show my complete bias and desire for a left right color option lol.

[Herotu]

If I wanted to discuss this topic and didn't necro this, I'd have people moaning about dual-posting, so it's a no-win situation. So it's necro.

 

I wanted to post this, although it came to my attention through a post by ...er.. Trike on the 3D Generative Art thread here: 

 

They point out that on Rebirth server, their developer SilverAgeFan worked out how to do Asymmetrical patterns some time ago:

https://forum.cityofheroesrebirth.com/index.php/topic,96.msg213.html#msg213

 

 

I realise that the developers probably feel some kind of pressure to implement/replicate whatever is generally considered a success from the other CoH servers. I think it's a great way of working, but I also feel that kind of pressure is unfair because of the moneyless environment that all this work is taking place within.

That being said, I do wonder if progress on this for Homecoming is on the cards at all? Is it a "we'd like to do it", or "we've got better things to do"?

Personally, I don't know where I stand. I'm not sure I'd take advantage of asymmetrical patterns. I do enjoy asymmetrical accessories/tools, however.