Any news on phase 2 of naming policy?

[Greycat]

15 minutes ago, Captain Fabulous said:

I did and you didn't. Neither did you explain how it would negatively affect your enjoyment of the game if the name of a character you never ever play was taken away from you.

 

OK, let me get very detailed and specific in my answer.

 

I have a character who was my first 50 in COH. I've brought her into other games, as well. She's here, too. She's the global on my main account. She's 50.

 

I don't dust her off much to play because of all the history and such that just *can't* follow her - the player that played her (eventual) husband isn't here and isn't interested, most of the SG she co-led isn't here, all the stories are in the past, pretty much. She's very much a "legacy" character, even if she's got slightly different powersets in the game now. This character means a *lot* to me - yet I don't play her very much for all the reasons listed. My RP tends to focus on characters that still have stories to tell and be a part of, so those other characters get logged in more. I might not get around to logging her in - I get an itch to play her again for one reason or another, but... yes, that *could very well be* more than a year apart, or I could get the urge to run her in every MSR and Hami raid I can for a month. Neither means I care about that character more or less.

 

Now, mind you, I don't think her name would be taken at all if 50s were opened up to the name policy. It's not an obvious name, it doesn't really reflect her powersets, etc.

 

But if she lost it because I didn't get around to logging her in because of a silly metric applied to an otherwise *obviously active player's account,* I would be *PISSED OFF.* It is an integral *part* of that character, and honestly if someone else did take the name I'd assume malicious intent first (again, because it's not an obvious name for anyone to grab.)

 

Now, as I've said, I've taken her to other games. If someone took her name (or the variant of her name) in STO, Aion, SWTOR? I haven't been on those in years. I wouldn't care. I probably wouldn't even know, because I'm not in the slightest bit involved in those games any longer. But here? Damn right I'd be angry about it.

 

 

Edit 2:

 

Or to put it another way, you're coming up to me and saying "Why are you keeping those photo albums you haven't looked at in a year? Everything like that should be thrown away or taken to Goodwill." Never mind those are pictures of relatives that have died, pictures from school, pictures of places I've visited that I may like going back to looking at *every once in a while* or showing nephews and nieces on occasional visits. Nope, they're over a year old, throw them away - and while you're throwing them away, you're telling me I *don't* actually care about them because I haven't looked at them in a while. Yes, I *do* care. These pixels and database entries that make up our characters *do* have personal and emotional attachments to us *active* players that are completely unrelated to if we've logged them in in some arbitrary time unit.

Edited February 21, 2023 by Greycat
(little clarity since the character's already 50, but since that's in the mix already with the conversation...)

[Excraft]

26 minutes ago, Captain Fabulous said:

I disagree. It's not about whether a player is active or not. It's about characters, as those are the things that hold names. If you're an active player you shouldn't have any issues taking the time to at least log in a character whose name is flagged for release. I mean, it's not complicated nor difficult. It literally takes under a minute per character.

 

And players are the ones holding the names.  If they're active, you can message them and negotiate for the release of a name.  It's not complicated or difficult to do.  It literally takes under a minute to message another player. 

 

I get it though, someone getting annoyed by all of this naming stuff is ok so long as it's the next guy. 

 

56 minutes ago, Captain Fabulous said:

No one is advocating for immediate release. No one. I don't even know why you went there.

 

Because that's where this is going.  People are already suggesting players are just going to PL characters to 50 and park them to exclude them from this name release silliness.  The GM even said above that chances are pretty likely most of the "desirable" names are 50s.  That just leads to people coming here and crying about not getting a name they really wanted and demanding that ALL characters regardless of level should have names released.  To me, that's ridiculous.  Why not take it to a free for all then?  If you aren't actively logged in, your character names should be fair game.  That's how ridiculous this whole thing has gotten in my view.

 

I'll repeat, if an account hasn't been logged in for a couple of years, go ahead and release all of the character names.  But if a player is still active, they can be contacted to negotiate the release of a name and not be forced into some silly policy because a few people can't be bothered to use a thesaurus or do without.  Like I said, I get it.  It's ok for someone to be annoyed and for someone to lose out so long as it's the next guy. 

 

I totally agree this should be done by account, not character.  I get that there's technical limitations in doing that, but as far as I remember it was never said it would be impossible to code.  I think the folk here are smart enough to come up with a better solution than this. 

[Captain Fabulous]

2 minutes ago, Greycat said:

But here? Damn right I'd be angry about it.

 

But not angry enough to make it a priority to at least log her in once a year. 👌

[Greycat]

2 minutes ago, Captain Fabulous said:

But not angry enough to make it a priority to at least log her in once a year. 👌

 

Since you obviously have zero interest in doing anything but being "right" and telling me I'm "wrong," I'm done with you.

[Erratic1]

10 minutes ago, Captain Fabulous said:

But not angry enough to make it a priority to at least log her in once a year. 👌

 

Well, I have to say that some might be spiteful enough to start creating characters, getting them past level 5 so their names are protected for a year, and then logging them just to take a larger chunk of the namespace because some people want to advocate annoying busy work.

 

Not me of course, but some. 

[MHertz]

1 hour ago, Erratic1 said:

Are you really that much better off that I log her in once per year just to avoid losing her name?

If our benchmark for whether purging old data is “are people better off?” then this whole exercise has to be re-evaluated. Which people? What is better?

 

In general I would say the game would be better off deleting idle characters, especially on idle accounts, because that would have a measurable effect on database stability and memory usage. All we are talking about is the name, and I’ve already said that, in my opinion, it is difficult to attach any benefit to any one user. Most people will still say “I can’t find a good name.” Only a few will be lucky enough to say “I got the one I’ve been waiting for.” So “are you better off” is not, to me, a compelling argument.

 

Suppose you could “retire” a character. Its name changes from Captain Firepants to Emeritus Captain Firepants or Captain Firepants (Retired) or something. You can no longer trade, gain XP, respec, or use the auction house. You keep a version of the name, you keep the character in the database, but you free up the name for someone else who would actually use it. It would have exactly the same effect as your unused character does now — it sits and does nothing. Would that be better or worse than deletion? Would that be better or worse than a name purge?

Edited February 21, 2023 by MHertz

[Erratic1]

18 minutes ago, MHertz said:

In general I would say the game would be better off deleting idle characters, especially on idle accounts, because that would have a measurable effect on database stability and memory usage. All we are talking about is the name.

 

The discussion was about purging 50s from active accounts vs from inactive.

[MHertz]

4 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

 

The discussion was about purging 50s from active accounts vs from inactive.

And I’m for it. If the character isn’t being played at all, not even once a year, then it’s just cluttering up the database.

 

If the player loves the character so much he can’t let it go, but is so indifferent about it that he can’t ever be bothered to log on as that character, it becomes like Gollum’s relationship with his precious.

Edited February 21, 2023 by MHertz

[Greycat]

20 minutes ago, MHertz said:

In general I would say the game would be better off deleting idle characters, especially on idle accounts, because that would have a measurable effect on database stability and memory usage.

 

 

You say "especially," meaning you're not ruling out *active* accounts also having characters deleted if they don't meet some metric.

 

I can see that helping the database, sure, because someone finding a character they had holding their INF, IOs, etc. that they hadn't used up to the time limit - even though they were otherwise active - would likely leave the game with absolutely zero positive feelings about Homecoming. If I want to hear HC get slammed, I'll just go to Reddit, no need to delete anyone's characters for that.

 

And I doubt the database is having any issues with stability. It dealt with far more accounts for far longer than HC's been running when the game was live, after all, and I don't think characters take all that much space.

[Erratic1]

1 minute ago, MHertz said:

And I’m for it. If the character isn’t being played at all, not even once a year, then it’s just cluttering up the database.

 

In my previous job the company kept every fiscal transaction, along with all the associated medical information ( procedures, resources, guarantors, insurance [including how it changed over time], contact information, providers, locations, payments, charges, etc.) going back for 30 years.

 

It is hard to see how our character, especially coming from what was constrained by the technology of 18 years ago, is really producing that much clutter in terms of modern storage.

[Excraft]

2 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

In my previous job the company kept every fiscal transaction, along with all the associated medical information ( procedures, resources, guarantors, insurance [including how it changed over time], contact information, providers, locations, payments, charges, etc.) going back for 30 years.

 

It is hard to see how our character, especially coming from what was constrained by the technology of 18 years ago, is really producing that much clutter in terms of modern storage.

 

Very similar to where I work.  We've got data that's going back to the days of 5 1/4 inch floppy disks.  Trying to use "database stability" as the reasoning for deleting characters is silly. 

[MHertz]

4 minutes ago, Greycat said:

I can see that helping the database, sure, because someone finding a character they had holding their INF, IOs, etc. that they hadn't used up to the time limit - even though they were otherwise active - would likely leave the game with absolutely zero positive feelings about Homecoming.

I counter with another specious argument about some hypothetical player who tries to return to Homecoming but his favorite toons were given Generic names or deleted. They go around and badmouth the game, no positive feelings, and so on. It’s fun! We can make up scenarios all day.

 

Give active players 1 year to hold their names (including 50s) and give inactive players 6 months. I know that’s a distinction the database can’t make at present, but that would at least favor players who are here.

[MHertz]

Just now, Excraft said:

Trying to use "database stability" as the reasoning for deleting characters is silly. 

At least it is a measurable metric, as opposed to hypothetical scenarios about people who feel a certain possessiveness about a thing they don’t care enough about to use, but can’t allow anyone else to enjoy.

 

I keep boxes of old crap in my garage too. MIDI cables, external Zip drives, old computers, portable CD player, chargers to batteries that turned to lumps of acidified plastic long ago. If I’m honest, I’m never going to haul out that old PowerMac 7100 and play “Fool’s Errand” ever again. If someone was volunteering to clean that crap out, I would never miss it. I might go, “Dang.”

[Greycat]

4 minutes ago, MHertz said:

I counter with another specious argument about some hypothetical player who tries to return to Homecoming but his favorite toons were given Generic names or deleted. They go around and badmouth the game, no positive feelings, and so on. It’s fun! We can make up scenarios all day.

 

Give active players 1 year to hold their names (including 50s) and give inactive players 6 months. I know that’s a distinction the database can’t make at present, but that would at least favor players who are here.

 

Or leave active players alone and just deal with the ones who actually haven't been in game for a year or more and aren't likely to come back.

 

9 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

It is hard to see how our character, especially coming from what was constrained by the technology of 18 years ago, is really producing that much clutter in terms of modern storage.

 

... for that matter, you can spin up a copy of COH on your own, including a character database, and see just how little space a character or account takes up.

[Erratic1]

16 minutes ago, Greycat said:

And I doubt the database is having any issues with stability. It dealt with far more accounts for far longer than HC's been running when the game was live, after all, and I don't think characters take all that much space.

 

Back at shutdown when Sentinel was created to extract out character information for possible reimport should the game be saved some way, the xml files produced were 31KB in size. So figure a milllion characters would fit in 31GB.

 

My five year-old phone has twice that for its base storage.

Edited February 21, 2023 by Erratic1

[MHertz]

1 minute ago, Greycat said:

Or leave active players alone and just deal with the ones who actually haven't been in game for a year or more and aren't likely to come back.

I believe it was already mentioned that this is a distinction the game cannot make, because there is no “account activity” that can be tied to a character. I would be in favor of this hypothetical example, for all the good it does.

[Excraft]

4 minutes ago, MHertz said:

At least it is a measurable metric, as opposed to hypothetical scenarios about people who feel a certain possessiveness about a thing they don’t care enough about to use, but can’t allow anyone else to enjoy.

 

I keep boxes of old crap in my garage too. MIDI cables, external Zip drives, old computers, portable CD player, chargers to batteries that turned to lumps of acidified plastic long ago. If I’m honest, I’m never going to haul out that old PowerMac 7100 and play “Fool’s Errand” ever again. If someone was volunteering to clean that crap out, I would never miss it. I might go, “Dang.”

 

It's a meaningless metric, measurable or not.  It's a non-issue.

 

Amazing you don't see the irony in your own post.  You're supporting releasing names because "people aren't using them", then go on to talk about all the crap you have but never use.  😉  But that's ok because it's you.

[MHertz]

2 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

So figure a milllion characters would fit in 31MB.

Sweet! I’m all about solutions based on things we can measure. If database stability is not an issue, then it can be disregarded.

 

We still have the issue of, what did we estimate, 600K potential names being freed up, out of 2M names? That’s a number worth discussing. That’s 30% of the existing characters — it’s not nothing.

 

[Excraft]

3 minutes ago, MHertz said:

I believe it was already mentioned that this is a distinction the game cannot make, because there is no “account activity” that can be tied to a character. I would be in favor of this hypothetical example, for all the good it does.

 

The game has to be able to know whether an account is active or not from back when the game was subscription based or even when it went F2P.  The game has to have some link between account and characters on a shard, otherwise it wouldn't know what characters to display once you've logged in and selected a shard.

[Excraft]

1 minute ago, MHertz said:

We still have the issue of, what did we estimate, 600K potential names being freed up, out of 2M names? That’s a number worth discussing. That’s 30% of the existing characters — it’s not nothing.

 

How many of those 600K are actual words and not gibberish?  People are being dazzled by big numbers and getting their hopes up. 

[MHertz]

1 minute ago, Excraft said:

Amazing you don't see the irony in your own post.  You're supporting releasing names because "people aren't using them", then go on to talk about all the crap you have but never use.  😉  But that's ok because it's you.

By no means. I said I would never miss it if someone were to haul it all away. I’m just too lazy to get out in the garage and do it myself.

[Erratic1]

1 minute ago, MHertz said:

I believe it was already mentioned that this is a distinction the game cannot make, because there is no “account activity” that can be tied to a character. I would be in favor of this hypothetical example, for all the good it does.

 

Your characters are tied to your acount otherwise when you logged in you would not have a list of characters presented to you. Whille there may not be a specific field in a database tracking when accounts log in, given you have a database with accounts and with characters with datetimes associated with being logged in, it is a straightforward query to find the most recent datetime associated with each account. 

 

I last logged in about an hour ago. Only one character will show that time--the character I was logged in to. Save that time against my account name and write it to a table. Do that for everyone and...oh my,  you have a table of accounts and last activity.

[Erratic1]

13 minutes ago, MHertz said:

Sweet! I’m all about solutions based on things we can measure. If database stability is not an issue, then it can be disregarded.

 

We still have the issue of, what did we estimate, 600K potential names being freed up, out of 2M names? That’s a number worth discussing. That’s 30% of the existing characters — it’s not nothing.

 

 

Here is a quick sampling of player names from my most frequented server showing right now as I type:

 

Agatha Stone

Aubrey Kate

Axle  Rock

Black Ronin.

Deflagrator

DiscoTech Juliet

Doctor Mortuus

Dro Skulls

Dro  Tsoo

Forrest Gumps

Frozen Circles

Fyre Urchyn

Garbopolis

Gemma Trappe

Ghost Gunman

Graffiti Artist

Grats
Higgs Bonsai

Hon

 

Any of those names you would likely think of to use were they forced to be available to you? 

 

A GM has noted the great number of names which nobody is going to be rushing to get. Freeing up a bunch of names may occur but those names were not preventing people from getting what they want.

Edited February 21, 2023 by Erratic1

[MHertz]

Just now, Excraft said:

How many of those 600K are actual words and not gibberish?  People are being dazzled by big numbers and getting their hopes up. 

If you’re assuming those 600k names are mostly gibberish, then you’ve got your hopes up too. Some of them will be idle names like “Phoenix Dark Dirk Steel” that are useful to very few. Some might be names like “ashagsjah” that people used as a mule or as a base builder or as a spammer. But I’d wager a good portion, maybe 60%, will be at least second-tier names that would smooth the process of getting a character online: the whole Darkblade, Shadowblade, Nightsword, Starstab, Shadeknife iteration people go through when they can’t think of anything really superior. Maybe 5% would be names that make people go “yeah, awesome!”

 

I have long said in this thread that the odds are good that few individuals will be able to declare success from this — defined such that they would find a name they always wanted. We shouldn’t be trying to measure this by how people feel about the names that become available to them.

[lemming]

I forgot to mention, I'd love it to be tied to account activity, but the Devs have said why that's not a viable option at this time.

 

And yes, I'm in the "If you care about the character name, you can do a little housekeeping" camp.

 

The only issue I see is if someone is unexpectedly unable to login near the end of the year for housekeeping which hopefully is rare.  And like said, the name gets taken if someone uses the name at character creation.