Is Regen poor or simply challenging (Psi/Regen build request)?

[Sir Myshkin]

1 hour ago, Erratic1 said:

Energy Punch for a Scrapper deals 79.83 base, and 48.38 base for a Brute. Stick in damage enhancements to get to +95% damage and the Scrapper is at 79.83*1.95=155.67 damage. Likewise the Brute can slot the same but also is going to get another 170% to his damage via Fury for a total of 265%. That puts him at 48.38*3.65=176.57. Factor in crits and the scrapper get 10% more to be at 171.237. That is still behind the Brute.

 

Just playing Devil's Advocate here on one small tid-bit of erroneous notation... You're generalizing Scrapper Criticals into an average performance value which, on a holistic value might make sense to some, but the topic of debate is really about individual spawn performance and it kind of matters for it to not be holistic, but per-unit. When a Scrapper criticals that value is going into a multiplicative state (for sake of simplicity I'm just going to say "double" even though that's broad and marginally incorrect it just makes the example easier to follow). If the Scrapper hits something and it crits from a base of ~156 to ~312, the Brute is still hitting at ~177, and must apply another attack on that target to create the same effect which increases the threat threshold with that target (and all surrounding targets) by the duration of the follow-up attack, and also decrease the available endurance pool by the associated amount.

 

Now lets say the corresponding AT's above are using an AoE, and that the above calculations are its corresponding values, but it is the second swing of that attack, and the first did not critical, but the second did (for the Scrapper). The Scrapper has now cleared the minion-level threats in the group while the Brute has only managed to do about 60% of their total HP, and still has the upper Lieuts and Bosses to go that the Scrapper has now since moved on to.

 

In this particular context the Scrapper is definitively ahead by X mobs, and depending on the nature of single target versus delayed AoE use of the Brute, the Brute will continue to expunge effort and endurance and potentially health.

 

This effect is compounded by the utilization of the critical AT-O's from the Scrapper sets which are just two singular pieces obtainable at any time in the leveling process.

[Erratic1]

20 minutes ago, Sir Myshkin said:

 

Just playing Devil's Advocate here on one small tid-bit of erroneous notation... You're generalizing Scrapper Criticals into an average performance value which, on a holistic value might make sense to some, but the topic of debate is really about individual spawn performance and it kind of matters for it to not be holistic, but per-unit. When a Scrapper criticals that value is going into a multiplicative state (for sake of simplicity I'm just going to say "double" even though that's broad and marginally incorrect it just makes the example easier to follow). If the Scrapper hits something and it crits from a base of ~156 to ~312, the Brute is still hitting at ~177, and must apply another attack on that target to create the same effect which increases the threat threshold with that target (and all surrounding targets) by the duration of the follow-up attack, and also decrease the available endurance pool by the associated amount.

 

Which was factored in by multiplying the previous result by the crit rate since If your base damage is 100, 10% of the time you crit for double, then your end result is 90% of the time no crit, so 100 damage and 10% of the time you  get 200. But 0.9*100 + 0.1*200=90+20=110, which is 1.1. In fact, I was generous because the crit rate against minions is lower.

 

20 minutes ago, Sir Myshkin said:

 

Now lets say the corresponding AT's above are using an AoE, and that the above calculations are its corresponding values, but it is the second swing of that attack, and the first did not critical, but the second did (for the Scrapper). The Scrapper has now cleared the minion-level threats in the group while the Brute has only managed to do about 60% of their total HP, and still has the upper Lieuts and Bosses to go that the Scrapper has now since moved on to.

 

In this particular context the Scrapper is definitively ahead by X mobs, and depending on the nature of single target versus delayed AoE use of the Brute, the Brute will continue to expunge effort and endurance and potentially health.

 

This effect is compounded by the utilization of the critical AT-O's from the Scrapper sets which are just two singular pieces obtainable at any time in the leveling process.

 

The scrapper can get lucky--that is the nature of probability. Sometimes he will hit the entire spawn for a crit and kill them all. On the other hand sometimes he will get no crit at all. In fact, that result is more likely.  None of that prevents being able to calculate average results.

 

And yeah, I love leading with Crowd Control on my WM/Nin scrapper in hopes of the crit bonanza. Well, not really hope when Ninjitsu gives a considerable boost to crit chance from stealth via Shinobi-Iri.

 

Edited February 21, 2023 by Erratic1

[Sir Myshkin]

1 hour ago, Erratic1 said:

Which was factored in by multiplying the previous result by the crit rate since If your base damage is 100, 10% of the time you crit for double, then your end result is 90% of the time no crit, so 100 damage and 10% of the time you  get 200. But 0.9*100 + 0.1*200=90+20=110, which is 1.1. In fact, I was generous because the crit rate against minions is lower.

 

Your factor, irregardless of its generosity, doesn't account for the AT-O increasing probability of critical chance, or the fact that it is possible to aggressively increase critical chance with Critical Strike being utilized prior to a key element attack. I did mass include an entire spawn in the concept of the critical example, but the theory still applies down to the singular element of a one to one mob case. Even if both AT's only ever implemented single target attacks, each effective critical hit is one less potential strike that the Scrapper has to make that the Brute inevitably still has to inflict. And yes there are wash out points where standard deviation of damage, minion to lieut to boss HP, blah blah, there are points where there's excess damage, but the critical system has a primary focus on elimination of lower threats faster. You also have Fury set at its expected topping line, but there's still the probability of boost damage like Build Ups where Scrappers get a larger boost than Brutes do on a per-power basis, and overall damage caps.

 

Yes Criticals run on probability, but since they are a statistically measurable thing: If I'm surrounded by 10 things, and my chance to crit is 10%*, than my likelihood of hitting 1 in 10 is pretty assured. At a minimum a Scrapper will do one less attack than a Brute if we use the given static consistent values. Based off the 156 and 177 as an example base line, on a minion alone that's a minimum three hits each, either way, 30 hits for the Brute, 29 for the Scrapper, bare minimum Scrapper is net positive over the Brute. Every critical over that limit puts a check mark in the Scrapper's column.

 

This is why Brutes should not be compared to Scrappers, and why Stalkers are the Scrapper counterpart.

 

*Yes, we've acknowledge this isn't the minion crit chance but it's pretty math and the point remains

[Blackjoy]

2 hours ago, Erratic1 said:

The scrapper can get lucky--that is the nature of probability. Sometimes he will hit the entire spawn for a crit and kill them all. On the other hand sometimes he will get no crit at all. In fact, that result is more likely.  None of that prevents being able to calculate average results.

I think you're missing the point.  When the scrapper crits and kills on that first shot, the Brute cannot catch up.   There is no negative crit that balances out getting crits.   Every time the scrapper crits and gets a one-shot kill with ET, that mob is no longer doing damage and no more attacks are needed.   That means the scrapper takes less damage and uses less endurance.  Both myself and Aether are having to pause to recover health on our Brutes.  So a Brute is not maintaining Fury.  And that 10-15 seconds to build it up is not insignificant.  The Scrapper is doing full damage right from the start and any lucky crits cumulativelyskew the endurance saving and damage avoidance in the Scrapper's favor. 

 

 

[Blackjoy]

3 hours ago, aethereal said:

This is dumb.  There is no "what the set can do" in isolation from the rest of the game.  I mean, we can say, "I want to see what a set can do (exclusively as it relates to doing negative energy daamage)," and, I mean, cool, you'll find that Dark sets are the best at everything -- as long as by "everything" you mean "this highly arbitrary benchmark that's unrelated to the actual game."

 

Not that Tough and Weave are hugely game changing at these levels, but I wish we could just excise this whole type of discourse of these fora which is like, "I have fifteen invisible rules in my head and as long as you play with these totally arbitrary limitations, all of my weird claims are true."

1.  What the sets can do independent of Power Pool and Set IOs and Incarnates is 100% relevant to someone asking about leveling from 1-50, than what is possible at 50+ with 200m build.   I will point out, once again, that Scrapper discussion are routinly distorted by what people do at 50+ as if that's the only thing that matters or counts.   It's not.   I actually tend to lose interest at 50 and spend more time playing alts than playing my 50's.  I doubt I'm alone.

 

2.  I have no invisible rules.  I am disclosing the circumstances under which I am evaluating the sets so that each reader can decide if those circumstances are representative of how they will play the game.   This is in contrast to the vast majority of posters who act like their individual build or their individual experience at lvl 50+ should be the basis of judging the entire set.  It's pretty ridiculous when you recognize it for what it is.

 

If you want to solo from 1-50 and don't want to bankroll a tune, IME, /Regen is one of the better sets.  I have no idea how it compares to other sets if you put in 100m by lvl 20 or 30.   Just like I don't know how the sets compare if you have a dedicated bubbler on your team.

 

What I see is people who can't make /Regen work at soloing 4x8 at lvl 50+ and they want to insist the set is trash in all circumstances.

 

 

[InvaderStych]

People take Tough or Weave before like the mid 30s?

 

[Erratic1]

5 hours ago, Sir Myshkin said:

Your factor, irregardless of its generosity, doesn't account for the AT-O increasing probability of critical chance, or the fact that it is possible to aggressively increase critical chance with Critical Strike being utilized prior to a key element attack. I did mass include an entire spawn in the concept of the critical example, but the theory still applies down to the singular element of a one to one mob case. Even if both AT's only ever implemented single target attacks, each effective critical hit is one less potential strike that the Scrapper has to make that the Brute inevitably still has to inflict. And yes there are wash out points where standard deviation of damage, minion to lieut to boss HP, blah blah, there are points where there's excess damage, but the critical system has a primary focus on elimination of lower threats faster. You also have Fury set at its expected topping line, but there's still the probability of boost damage like Build Ups where Scrappers get a larger boost than Brutes do on a per-power basis, and overall damage caps.

 

Certainly some people like to load out their characters at low levels, but I do actually make it a habit when grouping with people (TFs and missions) of checking out what powers they have. Most people I observe do not have ATOs loaded in the level 1-35 range. 

 

 

5 hours ago, Sir Myshkin said:

 

Yes Criticals run on probability, but since they are a statistically measurable thing: If I'm surrounded by 10 things, and my chance to crit is 10%*, than my likelihood of hitting 1 in 10 is pretty assured. At a minimum a Scrapper will do one less attack than a Brute if we use the given static consistent values. Based off the 156 and 177 as an example base line, on a minion alone that's a minimum three hits each, either way, 30 hits for the Brute, 29 for the Scrapper, bare minimum Scrapper is net positive over the Brute. Every critical over that limit puts a check mark in the Scrapper's column.

 

That is not how you do calculations. One actually can consider every possibility and sum them up. There is a field of math called combinatorics involved in doing precisely this. 

 

 

5 hours ago, Sir Myshkin said:

This is why Brutes should not be compared to Scrappers, and why Stalkers are the Scrapper counterpart.

 

*Yes, we've acknowledge this isn't the minion crit chance but it's pretty math and the point remains

 

Any two ATs can be compared for damage dealing. It is silly to maintain otherwise.

 

[Erratic1]

5 hours ago, Blackjoy said:

I think you're missing the point.  When the scrapper crits and kills on that first shot, the Brute cannot catch up.  

 

 

 

5 hours ago, Blackjoy said:

When the scrapper crits and kills on that first shot, the Brute cannot catch up.

 

No...just no.

 

Q: When the scrapper does not crit, what happens?

A: The Brute is ahead.

 

Q: Is the scrapper going to always crit?

A: Possible but increasingly unlikely over multiple hits in a fashion trending towards zero.

 

Q: How does one figure out the average result:

A: Simplifying things to make present an explanation, consider only single target attacks. Each attack can either crit (C) or be a normal hit (N). A sequence of attacks then has finite possibilities. For a single attack you have two possibilities: C or N. For two attacks you have four possibilities: NN, NC, CN, or CC. For three attacks there are eight possibilities: NNN, NNC, NCN, CNN, NCC, CNC, CCN, CCC. For k attacks there are 2^k possibilities. 

 

Q: But the scrapper, when he crits the Brute cannot keep up.

A: First, there are plenty of targets which survive a crit. Second, if the scrapper crits he then goes onto the next target. The consideration here is what happens on average over time. Yes, a scrapper can make three attacks and get three crits. If the scrapper has a ten percent chance of getting a crit then one time in a thousand he make a sequence of three attacks and gets those three critical hits. Nice and wonderful, but there are nine-hundred, ninety-nine other times to consider.

 

 

 

[Zect]

Interesting topic. I view the SO/IO debate as being clouded because there are really 2 different issues at play: the performance floor and the performance ceiling (what you can achieve with full optimization, IO's, incarnates etc.) At the performance floor, you want to ensure that every set can muster at least a certain bare minimum level of performance, but I don't recall any statements from Homecoming team on what they believe the floor for this game should be; the ancient Cryptic-era quote about a hero being roughly equivalent to 3 white minions would probably be laughed out of the room at this point.

 

Regardless, I do not think it is necessary that every set perform the same out of the gate. I think it's fine that some sets are easier to pick up and play for less skilled players, and others demand more thoughtful, skill-dependent play. This is a feature, not an imbalance, because it offers different gameplay styles for different players.

 

More generally, regarding the subject,

 

1. Regen is one of those sets that must receive AT-specific modifications, due to how drastically healing and regeneration scale with maxHP. Right now, the set performs much better on brutes and sentinels (who receive an invisible layer of mitigation from range) than it does on scrappers. Conversely, if brute regen is 1:1 ported to tanks in its current form, it will be a monstrously powerful defensive set. It needs to be tuned for each specific AT that has it.

 

2. Regen is one of the few sets, of any type, that has a viable argument for needing buffs. However, I think the buffs it needs are rarely the ones people ask for. There are two things in particular I think it needs:

• Slow resistance. Any set so dependent on click sustain and that is not easily softcappable (and no, mog doesn't count - it's an anti-alpha and anti-burst tool) needs slow res, about 20-25% worth. Fire has it, rad has it - regen must have it.
• Offensive buffs. When regen heals, it spends animation time defensively rather than offensively and therefore suffers a dps loss. The lazy option would be to slap some rech on quick recovery and call it a day, however I personally think some kind of mini-buildup upon using integration or mog would be especially thematic and reward active play.

3. Regardless of what changes, if any, are ever made to regen, I think there are some that should be off the table no matter what, in order to preserve regen's identity as a set focused on healing, regeneration, and management of click defensives:

• No addition of always-on defense, damage resistance, -def resistance, or changes that pander to the oppressive softcap meta
• No full uptime on defensive clicks such as mog and IH, not even with optimal rech builds; the sentinel change to IH in this respect was especially pernicious and should be altered to be more in line with regen's identity.

This game has already been heavily homogenized to be only about passive mitigation, perma-buffs, and always-on toggles, sets and autopowers. This game does not need another invuln or WP. This game needs a set focused on active play and intelligent management of multiple defensive resources (clicks), in order to diversify its gameplay. This game needs regen.

 

1 hour ago, InvaderStych said:

People take Tough or Weave before like the mid 30s?

 

Of course! Not to use, mind you, but an early GA/Steadfast mule. Obama there is laughing at forumites who grossly underestimate the power of set-muling, while being softcapped on his SR scrapper in the 20's.

[Erratic1]

1 hour ago, InvaderStych said:

People take Tough or Weave before like the mid 30s?

 

Historically I have taken Tough in the teens, but largely because it was a convenient place to slip it in. Having it and slotting and running it are two different things.

 

Oh...there are also the times I was angling for Cross Punch so needed a second power in the Fighting pool to get there. Super Strength has no area attacks until Foot Stomp, so getting Cross Punch early is a way to get around that. Likewise with Radiation Melee (because Proton Sweep is miserable).

[InvaderStych]

1 hour ago, Zect said:

Of course! Not to use, mind you, but an early GA/Steadfast mule.

 

Yup. Do that all the time. It's been quite a while since I've needed to dip into Tough to do so though. A long while. Definitely wasn't on a melee toon.

 

After Page 5 I've been pushing fighting pool back - primary/secondary options earlier are subjectively more useful to me.

 

1 hour ago, Erratic1 said:

Having it and slotting and running it are two different things.

 

Yeah, that was supposed to be the joke, but I wasn't specific enough. 😉

 

The idea of taking either of those early on and actually turning them on? Hilarious.

[aethereal]

9 hours ago, Blackjoy said:

1.  What the sets can do independent of Power Pool and Set IOs and Incarnates is 100% relevant to someone asking about leveling from 1-50, than what is possible at 50+ with 200m build.   I will point out, once again, that Scrapper discussion are routinly distorted by what people do at 50+ as if that's the only thing that matters or counts.   It's not.   I actually tend to lose interest at 50 and spend more time playing alts than playing my 50's.  I doubt I'm alone.

 

Power pools don't, uh, you know...  cost inf.  You can in fact get them whenever you think it's helpful!

 

This is not to say that there's some secret magic to getting Tough and Weave as early as possible: there's not.  In general, you want them somewhere in the late 20's to late 30's when you have slots to spare.  But this whole thing of, "Oh, well, I use the set without power pools" is a totally artificial constraint.

 

There is nothing about solo leveling that makes you need to have a highly cost-constrained build!  Like, I get that people don't necessarily want to spend billions on a character as they go, for a variety of reasons including that they may abandon the character and it can in fact be kinda hard to make billions of inf (not truly hard, but enough of an inconvenience that you might say, "well, this isn't why I play the game").  But making high tens/low hundreds of millions of inf is a simple matter of "spend your merits that you get from ordinary solo play on enhancement converters, sell them," and making mid-to-high hundreds of millions of inf is a matter of "spend your merits that you get from ordinary solo play on enhancement converters, buy recipes, craft them, then use the converters to turn them into salable orange IOs, sell them."  The former is about one total minute of activity per let's say 3 to 5 hours of play.  The latter is about 15 minutes of activity per 3 to 5 hours of play, plus spending 30 minutes once in your life to understand how to do it.

 

And I say this with absolutely due respect to everyone's playstyle:  If you prefer to make common IO or, for some godforsaken reason, SO builds, then cool, go you.  But if you're like, "Oh man it's so hard to play almost every armor set because I can't afford a Performance Shifter proc and also have low endurance reduction slotting," and that's frustrating or you can't understand why everyone else doesn't seem to have these problems, then my brothers and sisters, my message for you here today is that you do not have to be 50 to be able to afford IOs that cost a few million inf, you do not have to farm or have a farmer, you do not have to spend hours doing weird cornering-the-market shenanigans, you do not have to mentally track the fluctuations in supply and demand of dozens of items.  You need to, at the low end, spend merits on converters and sell them, or at the high end learn a simple procedure to craft IOs that you can sell for 1-2M inf a pop.  That's it!

 

Also:  Regen does not have the best endurance economy, even at low levels, even with low-cost builds!  It just doesn't.  Try out Bio or Ninjutsu.  If you don't mind working a little harder in levels 1-20 but care a lot about levels 30-49, try Energy or Electric.

Edited February 21, 2023 by aethereal

[Erratic1]

35 minutes ago, aethereal said:

And I say this with absolutely due respect to everyone's playstyle:  If you prefer to make common IO or, for some godforsaken reason, SO builds, then cool, go you.  But if you're like, "Oh man it's so hard to play almost every armor set because I can't afford a Performance Shifter proc and also have low endurance reduction slotting," and that's frustrating or you can't understand why everyone else doesn't seem to have these problems, then my brothers and sisters, my message for you here today is that you do not have to be 50 to be able to afford IOs that cost a few million inf, you do not have to farm or have a farmer, you do not have to spend hours doing weird cornering-the-market shenanigans, you do not have to mentally track the fluctuations in supply and demand of dozens of items.  You need to, at the low end, spend merits on converters and sell them, or at the high end learn a simple procedure to craft IOs that you can sell for 1-2M inf a pop.  That's it!

 

To underscore what athereal is saying:

 

Attuned Performance Shifter: Chance for Endurance, as I type this, is running a little over 3 million influence on the auction house. 

Enhancements converters, which may be purchased three at a time for a single merit are running 75 thousand.

 

3 million/75 thousand = 40 converters. Divide that by 3 and you need 14 merits to afford a Performance Shifter. The Positron 2 (Dam Hero) task force pays 15 merits and is available at level 11.

[Blackjoy]

10 hours ago, Erratic1 said:

 

 

 

 

No...just no.

 

Q: When the scrapper does not crit, what happens?

A: The Brute is ahead.

 

I kept the picture because I think it aptly applies to your response.

 

No, the Brute is not ahead.  When you start the first encounter, mission, the Brute has no Fury.  The scrapper is doing more damage.  After the first or second spawn, the Brute takes a knee and is back to 0 Fury.   The Brute never gets ahead becuase in both my situation and Aetheral's we are describing a situation where we both had to stop to recover health.

 

So every singe time that happens the Scrapper is doing more damage.  Eventually the scrapper starts to crit and that continues to widen the gap.

 

11 hours ago, Erratic1 said:

That is not how you do calculations. One actually can consider every possibility and sum them up. There is a field of math called combinatorics involved in doing precisely this. 

 

Whether or not that applies to this situation, that's not what you're doing.

 

10 hours ago, Erratic1 said:

: How does one figure out the average result:

And this is where the *facepalm* applies.  This situation isn't accurately understood through DPS.   I'll try to prove this to you tangentially, but I'm not sure it'll stick.

 

The Live devs used a formula to determine that stats on each attack.   It considers Damage and Endurance cost.   On Live, someone figured out that big hitters like ET don't follow the formula.   Why?  Because the devs recognized the asymmetrical benefits of front loaded damage.   To spell it out, there are asymmetrical benefits to scrapper having a higher base damage and crits that front load damage.   These benefits  are amplified when the Brute cannot build Fury.  Those benefits translate into a Scapper killing faster, taking less damage, and using less endurance.   You can refuse to accept that because your average numbers tell you something different.  I'm okay with that.

 

Edited February 22, 2023 by Blackjoy

[Blackjoy]

6 hours ago, aethereal said:

But this whole thing of, "Oh, well, I use the set without power pools" is a totally artificial constraint.

It's not a "constraint."  It's how you benchmark.  It's how you compare apples to apples.   Power Pools and Set IO bonuses don't benefit all sets equally.  The devs on Homecoming even acknowledged that.    In order to understand that dynamic, you need to understand how the sets perform naked.   Tough and Weave are not part of any Scapper secondary.  They are entirely elective and not part of any requirement to level up a Scrapper.

 

If you can't accept any comparative data on Secondaries because they don't include Tough and Weave and Performance Shifter, that's entirely your prerogative.  But by telling you how  played the sets I am at least giving you the information to decide.

 

 

 

Edited February 22, 2023 by Blackjoy

[aethereal]

6 minutes ago, Blackjoy said:

It's not a "constraint."  It's how you benchmark.  It's how you compare apples to apples.   Power Pools and Set IO bonuses don't benefit all sets equally.  In order to understand that dynamic, you need to understand how the sets perform naked.   Tough and Weave are not part of any Scapper secondary.  They are entirely elective and not part of any requirement to level up a Scrapper.

 

You don't have to take more than one power from your secondary to level up.  If for some insane reason you wanted to, you could literally skip every power in Regen except fast healing!

 

Clearly in order to get a proper "baseline," we need to understand how each armor set performed when you get the T1 power and nothing else!

[Rokkeb]

5 hours ago, Erratic1 said:

 

To underscore what athereal is saying:

 

Attuned Performance Shifter: Chance for Endurance, as I type this, is running a little over 3 million influence on the auction house. 

Enhancements converters, which may be purchased three at a time for a single merit are running 75 thousand.

 

3 million/75 thousand = 40 converters. Divide that by 3 and you need 14 merits to afford a Performance Shifter. The Positron 2 (Dam Hero) task force pays 15 merits and is available at level 11

Or get carried through 1 SBB at 15 and sell that OWF for 4mil and buy your perf shifter that way. 

[Blackjoy]

Just now, aethereal said:

 

You don't have to take more than one power from your secondary to level up.  If for some insane reason you wanted to, you could literally skip every power in Regen except fast healing!

 

Clearly in order to get a proper "baseline," we need to understand how each armor set performed when you get the T1 power and nothing else!

If you think that's a valid response, then you do you.

[aethereal]

18 minutes ago, Blackjoy said:

I kept the picture because I think it aptly applies to your response.

 

No, the Brute is not ahead.  When you start the first encounter, mission, the Brute has no Fury.  The scrapper is doing more damage.  After the first or second spawn, the Brute takes a knee and is back to 0 Fury.   The Brute never gets ahead becuase in both my situation and Aetheral's we are describing a situation where we both had to stop to recover health.

 

Just for the record, no.  That is not in fact at all how my brute played.  I did have to test relatively often.  Not after every spawn, and no, you don't have to let your fury go to zero when you rest, and, just to be clear, to get above low level scrapper damage takes about five seconds, small fractions of one spawn.

 

18 minutes ago, Blackjoy said:

 

The Live devs used a formula to determine that stats on each attack.   It considers Damage and Endurance cost.   On Live, someone figured out that big hitters like ET don't follow the formula.

 

I mean, ET breaks the formula in such a way as to get more damage than its recharge would suggest, not less as you imply here.

 

18 minutes ago, Blackjoy said:

 

 

  Why?  Because the devs recognized the asymmetrical benefits of front loaded damage.   To spell it out, there are asymmetrical benefits to scrapper having a higher base damage and crits that front load damage.   These benefits  are amplified when the Brute cannot build Fury.  Those benefits translate into a Scapper killing faster, taking less damage, and using less endurance.   You can refuse to accept that because your average numbers tell you something different.  I'm okay with that.

 

Maintaining fury is not hard, and fury builds very quickly.  This idea that brutes are constantly struggling with low fury is pure cope.

[Blackjoy]

On 2/20/2023 at 5:28 PM, aethereal said:

I actually played an Energy Melee/Regen brute, just recently.  I was resting all the time with it.  Mostly due to health concerns, not endurance, but endurance wasn't great either

Your words not mine.   You can of course try and walk them back if you think that will tangentially prove that /Regen sucks.

 

Quote

Maintaining fury is not hard, and fury builds very quickly.  This idea that brutes are constantly struggling with low fury is pure cope.

At this point you're just trolling.  No one said Brutes had trouble maintaining Fury.    You keep trying to throw out straw man arguments.   I said you can't maintain Fury when you're recovering health.   You don't maintain Fury will taking a knee.  You don't maintain Fury while "resting all the time."  

 

I've never had to "rest all the time" with any of my /Regens scrappers playing solo and fighting stuff I was at leas hitting 65% of the time..  I'll let you do the math.

 

If /Regen sucks for you, then  I don't know what to tell you.

 

 

Edited February 22, 2023 by Blackjoy

[Erratic1]

35 minutes ago, Blackjoy said:

<Bunch of hand-wavium, ignores math, argues by assertion>

 

I am going to avoid having this apply to myself:

 

 

I am good with letting you be wrong.

[Erratic1]

15 minutes ago, aethereal said:

Maintaining fury is not hard, and fury builds very quickly.  This idea that brutes are constantly struggling with low fury is pure cope.

 

You can exit a fight, take a knee, recover to full health/endurance, and still have a nice chunk of Fury, which will as you noted very quickly be back to superior damage levels after a swing or two.

 

Due to another conversation last week, I got around to making the SS/EA Brute I had been avoiding doing (played one in Live, was trying to avoid repeating myself but also know more about building characters...so gave in). She was decent at lower levels, but once she got Energy Drain at level 24...oh my...the wrongness which has ensued. Mostly mentioned because I had been paying attention to Fury while leveling her.

[smnolimits43]

Hmmm.. if your gonna solo pick a set your going to enjoy, if you want to play a certain concept than go with regen.  I have several scrappers, and they are all Invulnerable.  During each spawn of enemies, i have to rest.  I think this is where a secondary like Regen comes in handy, you get Quick Recovery early.  However, i also like to have my attacks early. The faster you arrest ( or kill) the less damage your gonna take.  Than your gonna want your heals.  Its like having your own empath. I'm not really sure where i'm going with this rant.  I've been around since the beginning, and yes i remember what the original Regen was like.  Anyways i will shut up now, i hope that Psi/Regen is your cup of tea.

[twozerofoxtrot]

16 hours ago, Zect said:

Conversely, if brute regen is 1:1 ported to tanks in its current form, it will be a monstrously powerful defensive set.

 

[aethereal]

15 hours ago, Blackjoy said:

Your words not mine.   You can of course try and walk them back if you think that will tangentially prove that /Regen sucks.

 

We perhaps have different definitions of "all the time."  My brute would rest every three or four spawns (which I'd regard as "unacceptably a lot") at low levels (so basically it would go something like "do a spawn, be at half health, do the next spawn, use reconstruction and come out at 75-80% health, do the next spawn and be down at 25% health, rest," roughly).  When I rested, I'd usually let Fury drop to about 20.  It'd be back up above 60 by halfway through the next spawn.  So you can try out your math on "enter two spawns out of three at solidly north of scrapper damage, enter one spawn at slightly below scrapper damage and exit it at solidly north of scrapper damage."