Knock back option suggestion

[Wavicle]

1 hour ago, Captain Fabulous said:

Honestly I'd like to see such a power available to everyone from the P2W vendor. A zero-endurance toggle that reduces all KB to KD. This way one can choose this if you want it to cover all your powers (and have the ability to turn it on or off at will) or opt for IOs if you just want to convert specific powers.

It has to have a penalty (such as sacrificing an enhancement slot) because kb2kd is a dps increase as stated.

Edited March 7, 2023 by Wavicle

[Wavicle]

1 minute ago, JasperStone said:

There is?

Of course. That’s why people complain about kb, it slows down killing by spreading mobs out.

[JasperStone]

1 minute ago, Wavicle said:

Of course. That’s why people complain about kb, it slows down killing by spreading mobs out.

Sorry.

Unclear in my question.

Thought it increase DPS on the KB power.

 

[Rudra]

3 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

 

Really?

I haven't experienced that in Homecoming. Anti-Kheldian forces have been greatly nerfed.

But, I have only made one, and they primarily fight in human form. They only transform into squid mode when there is a taunting tank around or there is that need for the last bit of DPS to take down enemies once the anti-Kheldians in the group are down.

I think we had this discussion before. The first and last time I tried a Kheldian was shortly after they were introduced. There has been a comment or two sent my way that they aren't so heavily biased any more, so I should at least give them another try. I simply refuse to at this time. There is a plethora of character concepts and builds for me to try before I even think about dealing with a Kheldian ever again.

[Zeraphia]

OP, I hear you and I've said the same things about knockback relatively and its actual effectiveness vs mobs. There are a lot of very rude posters on here who will berate you and make outlandish statements just for stating you'd like something changed (and outright just optional) about a secondary effect which is highly controversial and not like other secondary effects in the sense that it is not objectively better for the player using it to have the effect attached to its powers. 

 

Honestly, I have to say it, I stridently disagree with what other posters commented earlier about "not being bothered by knockback." Yeah, that might be them and their experience. Those experiences cannot be stated for everyone else. Max slotting knockback IO's into knockback-based powers and taking FF to repel and make bosses/enemies/rikti pylons (hostaging MSRs) is a popular "trolling" strategy. I'm not claiming it's super common but I've had to deal with one of those on at least 10 or so different occasions. I'm not even going to go into all of the objectively bad uses I've had teammates use on knockbacks that have even caused an entire ITF to have to be restarted over the minions being stuck in walls. 

 

Yes, I do support a level one option that allows Energy Blast/FF/Gravity/other powersets notorious for their KB/trolling potential to be given the option to turn those effects to KD. 

 

I'll get several thumbs down for that opinion but I do not care.

[Rudra]

2 hours ago, Captain Fabulous said:

How about no? More options = better. Having to burn an enhancement slot isn't always ideal. Having a zero-cost passive or toggle power isn't always ideal either. But the more options we have the better. I really do not understand the pushback here.

If I suggested that all KB in the game be reduced to MAG 0.67 so that it's KD, with the excuse that you could then slot KB enhancers to turn it in KB if you wanted to, with a massive -tohit and/or -dmg penalty, you'd lose your GD mind. So why is the reverse OK?

Sometimes KB is a good thing and sometimes it's not. Giving us the flexibility to control it better is a plus, not a minus, especially since no one will ever force you to use said options if you choose not to.

The pushback is the OP wants the benefit of an enhancement without having to slot it. So if the request is for an enhancement's benefit without having to slot it, then the price should be an enhancement. Ergo, -42.4% damage penalty. The effects of a single level 50 IO damage enhancement. The flexibility to use or not use knockback is already available in the multiple builds every character gets and the availability of knockback to knockdown enhancements. Make one build with the knockback to knockdown enhancements and another build without them. Voila. Now you have the flexibility to use or not use knockback as you see fit.

[Captain Fabulous]

38 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

Because typically adding kb2kd is a sizable dps increase, that’s why.

I can't possibly imagine this to be true.

[Rudra]

2 hours ago, FupDup said:

For energy blast, what I've always wanted is a revamp that integrates a toggle as an actual power that takes up a power pick. Something like this:

 

Focused Force (Toggle)

>Replaces Aim

>While active, removes all knockback and knockdown but gives you a small damage and to-hit buff and costs some endurance

 

The way I think about it is that the normal energy blast is like a shotgun, spraying a big load of energy all over the place that can yeet people. Focused Force however would be more of a precision rifle shot, not yeeting anyone because the force is focused into a very small surface area. 

 

Yes, I know that most people would run that toggle all the time. I'm not terribly bothered by that because of the polarizing design that KB has in any non-solo environment. This would certainly let people experience both sides (yeeting and not-yeeting) in a seamless way that doesn't require them to level the character up to 50 twice and spend twice as much inf putting two builds together.

 

And this wouldn't even totally remove the utility of the KB to KD enhancements because using those would still give you some soft control, whereas this toggle wouldn't even let you have any KD at all. 

I'm against this too. If you were to replace Aim (which I am very much against because players are already using that power) with "Focused Force", then the effect I would make Focused Force give is guaranteed knockback.

[Captain Fabulous]

37 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

Of course. That’s why people complain about kb, it slows down killing by spreading mobs out.

No, people complain because spreading mobs out makes it harder to maintain aggro control. It has nothing to do with damage.

[Captain Fabulous]

3 minutes ago, Rudra said:

The pushback is the OP wants the benefit of an enhancement without having to slot it. So if the request is for an enhancement's benefit without having to slot it, then the price should be an enhancement. Ergo, -42.4% damage penalty. The effects of a single level 50 IO damage enhancement. The flexibility to use or not use knockback is already available in the multiple builds every character gets and the availability of knockback to knockdown enhancements. Make one build with the knockback to knockdown enhancements and another build without them. Voila. Now you have the flexibility to use or not use knockback as you see fit.

It's absolutely not what the OP is asking for. 

[Zeraphia]

1 minute ago, Captain Fabulous said:

No, people complain because spreading mobs out makes it harder to maintain aggro control. It has nothing to do with damage.

Both are true. Because of the lack of aggro control you cannot get mobs group up for AoEs (this is why almost every single speed running build for those record TF's is a fire/fire blaster with Fold Space as the #1 priority power pool pick.) This game passively rewards you in time progression for properly grouping mobs. This is highly reflective through objective measurement of speed clearing. It's simply going to take a significantly longer time to clear a scattered mob than a gathered one. This time then gets added up for almost every mob with someone on your team with substantial KB potential. People will say "oh just blast the other enemies" which is true, but these are the differences between efficiently clearing mobs and taking 20 minutes on a TF vs 30 minutes. 

[Rudra]

2 minutes ago, Captain Fabulous said:

It's absolutely not what the OP is asking for. 

 

12 hours ago, CompSciNerd said:

hey have to waste an enhancement slot for a knock back to knock down converter that could be used for anything else.

 

11 hours ago, CompSciNerd said:

 

The Energy Blast set alone means you are going to burn 8 slots.  What could you do with 8 extra slots...?

 

That top quote from @CompSciNerd is in the OP. So getting the benefit of an enhancement without having to slot it is exactly what the OP is asking for.

[Zeraphia]

1 minute ago, Rudra said:

That top quote from @CompSciNerd is in the OP. So getting the benefit of an enhancement without having to slot it is exactly what the OP is asking for.

I have to ask... so what? Even if he is asking for the benefit of it, Energy Blast isn't in a great place relative to other blast sets to begin with. This is especially true because of its KB "benefit" taxing the set's potential. Even if the suggestion was implemented and a free no energy KB->KD toggle was given out, Energy Blast still would not be a T1 blast set relatively. It would still be behind or even with Radiation Blast, lagging strongly behind Fire Blast, still behind Water Blast, etc. at their respective categories. I understand a reasonable degree of skepticism is warranted regarding powercreep, but I don't think this is a place where its truly merited. 

[CompSciNerd]

2 hours ago, Captain Fabulous said:

How about no? More options = better. Having to burn an enhancement slot isn't always ideal. Having a zero-cost passive or toggle power isn't always ideal either. But the more options we have the better. I really do not understand the pushback here.

If I suggested that all KB in the game be reduced to MAG 0.67 so that it's KD, with the excuse that you could then slot KB enhancers to turn it in KB if you wanted to, with a massive -tohit and/or -dmg penalty, you'd lose your GD mind. So why is the reverse OK?

Sometimes KB is a good thing and sometimes it's not. Giving us the flexibility to control it better is a plus, not a minus, especially since no one will ever force you to use said options if you choose not to.

 

Exactly this.

[CompSciNerd]

2 hours ago, Captain Fabulous said:

Honestly I'd like to see such a power available to everyone from the P2W vendor. A zero-endurance toggle that reduces all KB to KD. This way one can choose this if you want it to cover all your powers (and have the ability to turn it on or off at will) or opt for IOs if you just want to convert specific powers.

 

Yes.  I like it.

[lemming]

28 minutes ago, Zeraphia said:

I'm not even going to go into all of the objectively bad uses I've had teammates use on knockbacks that have even caused an entire ITF to have to be restarted over the minions being stuck in walls.

I've been finding those to be fewer of a problem than early days.  I think the GMs have been fixing the geometry here and there.

[Captain Fabulous]

15 minutes ago, Rudra said:

 

 

That top quote from @CompSciNerd is in the OP. So getting the benefit of an enhancement without having to slot it is exactly what the OP is asking for.

You make the false assumption the only way to address KB issues is requiring people to burn a slot to not make a power detrimental to your team. What the rest of us over here in not false equivalency land are saying is there are other ways that can, and should, be explored.

 

19 minutes ago, Zeraphia said:

Both are true. Because of the lack of aggro control you cannot get mobs group up for AoEs (this is why almost every single speed running build for those record TF's is a fire/fire blaster with Fold Space as the #1 priority power pool pick.) This game passively rewards you in time progression for properly grouping mobs. This is highly reflective through objective measurement of speed clearing. It's simply going to take a significantly longer time to clear a scattered mob than a gathered one. This time then gets added up for almost every mob with someone on your team with substantial KB potential. People will say "oh just blast the other enemies" which is true, but these are the differences between efficiently clearing mobs and taking 20 minutes on a TF vs 30 minutes. 

Yes, that is an added benefit in the niche example you provide. But this is not the majority of the game nor representative of the way most people play. Most people are far more concerned about not getting curbstomped because the tank lost aggro than they are about clear times. 

[Rudra]

24 minutes ago, Zeraphia said:

I have to ask... so what? Even if he is asking for the benefit of it, Energy Blast isn't in a great place relative to other blast sets to begin with. This is especially true because of its KB "benefit" taxing the set's potential. Even if the suggestion was implemented and a free no energy KB->KD toggle was given out, Energy Blast still would not be a T1 blast set relatively. It would still be behind or even with Radiation Blast, lagging strongly behind Fire Blast, still behind Water Blast, etc. at their respective categories. I understand a reasonable degree of skepticism is warranted regarding powercreep, but I don't think this is a place where its truly merited. 

First, the OP further homogenizes the power sets. Instead of learning the quirks of a set and leveraging it to his/her advantage, the OP wants to strip out a benefit so the sets all play the same. Second, we already have the enhancements to strip KB from powers and instead use KD. The Sudden Acceleration set's whole purpose is to give players the ability to change KB to KD and it even comes with 3 damage boosting enhancements, damage set bonus, and global recharge bonus. Third, if Energy Blast as a set is so bad, then ask to have it gone over by the devs rather than try to get the benefits of a free enhancement. (Edit: Though I disagree that Energy Blast is a bad set. My energy/martial Blaster devours the opposition.)

Edited March 7, 2023 by Rudra

[lemming]

My characters with KB powers, I usually get KB->KD on everything but one of the powers.  Sometimes you just want to get someone elsewhere.

 

So, I'm against a character toggle and would prefer a per power toggle.  Though, a character toggle could balance it, and then via P2W would make the most sense to me.

 

I would add to both Sudden Acceleration and Overwhelming Forces KB->KD enhancements extra KB that would in theory just make it easier to knock stuff over and make the enh not worthless to slot.  (Though OF does +Dam anyway)

[Captain Fabulous]

1 minute ago, Rudra said:

First, the OP further homogenizes the power sets. Instead of learning the quirks of a set and leveraging it to his/her advantage, the OP wants to strip out a benefit so the sets all play the same. Second, we already have the enhancements to strip KB from powers and instead use KD. The Sudden Acceleration set's whole purpose is to give players the ability to change KB to KD and it even comes with 3 damage boosting enhancements, damage set bonus, and global recharge bonus. Third, if Energy Blast as a set is so bad, then ask to have it gone over by the devs rather than try to get the benefits of a free enhancement.

Not even remotely what he's saying. Your ability to spew logical fallacies and false equivalencies is truly astounding. When you want to have an actual adult conversation let me know.

[Rudra]

Just now, Captain Fabulous said:

Not even remotely what he's saying. Your ability to spew logical fallacies and false equivalencies is truly astounding. When you want to have an actual adult conversation let me know.

I read and re-read and re-re-read the OP. I don't see how you can say it is anything other than what I said it is.

[Captain Fabulous]

3 minutes ago, lemming said:

My characters with KB powers, I usually get KB->KD on everything but one of the powers.  Sometimes you just want to get someone elsewhere.

 

So, I'm against a character toggle and would prefer a per power toggle.  Though, a character toggle could balance it, and then via P2W would make the most sense to me.

 

I would add to both Sudden Acceleration and Overwhelming Forces KB->KD enhancements extra KB that would in theory just make it easier to knock stuff over and make the enh not worthless to slot.  (Though OF does +Dam anyway)

I see no reason we can't have both a toggle power that converts everything as well as a per-power option. As noted previously, when soloing or in small groups KB is a great mitigator. On a big team it's often a hindrance. The ability to control it on-the-fly as the situation warrants would be a long-welcome option.

[Zeraphia]

11 minutes ago, Rudra said:

First, the OP further homogenizes the power sets. Instead of learning the quirks of a set and leveraging it to his/her advantage, the OP wants to strip out a benefit so the sets all play the same. Second, we already have the enhancements to strip KB from powers and instead use KD. The Sudden Acceleration set's whole purpose is to give players the ability to change KB to KD and it even comes with 3 damage boosting enhancements, damage set bonus, and global recharge bonus. Third, if Energy Blast as a set is so bad, then ask to have it gone over by the devs rather than try to get the benefits of a free enhancement.

I think you and I actually agree more on some points than maybe some of the other posters here, I just disagree on the conclusion of what to do. In my view, Energy Blast is sincerely that bad when you look at it objectively in a numbers perspective and even an anecdotal gameplay perspective. And yes, the reason for this being so is also in my view, too directly linked to it being tied to knockback. 

 

The reason is simply just a multitude of things including horrible synergy with the arguably "best" secondary powerset for blasters (Fire Manipulation) and even poor synergies with other sets that would've boosted ST and AoE performances of the set but can't because you're constantly KBing enemies out of your melee/aoe range, along with not great proc opportunities by being limited by kb->kd to solve the problem, which forces you almost into this "pray Nova oneshots or I'm SOL" perspective, along with typically being only able to sustain DPS via ranged attacks which hurts DPS heavily. 

 

Compare this to Radiation Blast who is essentially a complete copy but with a desirable proc opportunist in -def and the difference is night and day better but still not overpowered, just a lot better.  

 

Simply put, if you allowed the "freebie" kb->kd it honestly does solve the problems the set has. It allows for synergy between the melee ST attacks, allows people to group better, makes AoEing much easier, substantially boosts clear speed, boosts ST dps substantially, allows you to be even with Radiation Blast in terms of raw DPS excluding the -res proc, and makes it a balanced and worthwhile option even if outclassed slightly by some sets.

Edited March 7, 2023 by Zeraphia

[kelika2]

I still like the idea of lowering all player knockback powers to .30~ mag or so and expand on the Knockback sets.  adding more sets, adding pvp tier and epic tier

worked for Hasten, some people will go out kicking and screaming but once they calm down they will start rebuilding their alts

[Zect]

I like that you have to pay a slot for the KB2KD proc to turn it into knockdown. It introduces interesting design tradeoffs, especially when the proc competes with 6th set bonuses and other desired procs. Therefore, this suggestion gets a no from me.

 

However, what I would be in favor of is adding new mobs to existing enemy groups that are best dealt with using KB. KB is just too disfavored by the oppressive, un-fun mass-aoe meta, even though nobody will come out and say it. You never hear anyone asking for a toggle to turn KD powers into KB.