Knock back option suggestion

[CompSciNerd]

I was thinking about this the other day.

 

 First, I'm not of the opinion that knock back is never fun.  Sometimes when I'm soloing it can be a fun part of the strategy.  And there is something about watching the bad guys getting sent through the air...

 

But anyone who has played this game for more than a few levels knows knock back on some powers can at a minimum be more annoying than the power set itself is worth.  Many people simply do not use some power sets at all because of this or if they do they have to waste an enhancement slot for a knock back to knock down converter that could be used for anything else.

 

I think there is a simpler solution.  One that doesn't get rid of knock back for those times when you want to play that way.  But changes it when you would rather have knock down.  Like a team build.

 

We all have access to two character builds for every toon at the trainer called "Select your active build" (if you were not aware of that).  Instead of using enhancements to fix this, I would like to see a toggle, or a check box on the top or bottom of our build screen for enhancements that simply says "[*] Convert knock backs to knock downs" and it does this globally on all powers for that particular build.

 

This way you can have one build for knockback (if you like it that way), one build with knock down (which I think will become the popular choice), and if you want to pick and choose your powers for a more fine grain build option, you can still go the enhancement route.

 

A global check box on a particular build will free slots, give people more options, allow to changes builds at the trainer any time you want, and very like add a fresh breath of air to set that are not as popular.

 

I think this is a better option that people will like more.

 

Note:  I want to add the idea proposed in the discussion that I am warming into: 

The KB / KD global toggle. 

Low or no cool down.

Can switched on the fly during play, combat, at anytime. 

This allows the player flexibility in varying strategies during combat. 

Available for any power set containing KB or KD. 

Possibly acquired at the p2w vendor or similar (This part I'm less concerned with).  It should be available at level 1 so if people want build character themes around it they can, as well as get experience playing with switching strategies.

 

Edited March 11, 2023 by CompSciNerd

[Rudra]

Not this again....

 

No. If you want to turn knockback into knockdown, slot the enhancements that do so. It's that simple. Solution already exists in the game.

 

Edit: And you can still use both builds to do what you are saying. One build has the KB-KD enhancements slotted while the other build does not. Now you are free to use KB when you want and KD when you don't. Problem already solved. (You don't get to enjoy the benefit of an enhancement unless you slot it.)

 

Edit again: And as someone who has played the game almost from launch, not HC but original launch, I wholeheartedly disagree with your "But anyone who has played this game for more than a few levels knows knock back on some powers can at a minimum be more annoying than the power set itself is worth. " statement.

Edited March 7, 2023 by Rudra

[Wavicle]

The only way I will support this kind of thing (which normally would be better at Null the Gull than anywhere else) is if it is added as a Power of some kind (Normal or Incarnate), so that it comes with an opportunity cost.

[CompSciNerd]

20 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Not this again....

 

No. If you want to turn knockback into knockdown, slot the enhancements that do so. It's that simple. Solution already exists in the game.

 

Edit: And you can still use both builds to do what you are saying. One build has the KB-KD enhancements slotted while the other build does not. Now you are free to use KB when you want and KD when you don't. Problem already solved.

 

Edit again: And as someone who has played the game almost from launch, not HC but original launch, I wholeheartedly disagree with your "But anyone who has played this game for more than a few levels knows knock back on some powers can at a minimum be more annoying than the power set itself is worth. " statement.

 

TBH, I haven't spent a lot to time in the forums.  If this is a topic that is being brought up again, clearly people are not happy with the current solution.  So it is not solved to the satisfaction of the players.   

 

This supports my point.  There is a better way to handle this.

 

You can have multiple builds.  But, why would want to waste enhancement slots on something that there is wide support that should behave differently?  The Energy Blast set alone means you are going to burn 8 slots.  What could you do with 8 extra slots...?  That is a band-aid solution.  A global switch on the toon's build makes more sense.  Nothing changes for people that like the enhancement option if that is what you want.  I'm not suggesting we take away functionality.  I'm saying they add in options.

 

More options, more play styles supported.  Win, win.

 

You are not the only one.  I have been around for a while too.  Every team I have been on the tank complains about the knock back.  For years.  And not just the tank, 'trollers too.  Some of those powerset have a lot more potential this way and are waisted sets now because people just aren't going to deal with it.  I'm sorry you disagree with that, but experience says otherwise.

 

If the topic keeps coming back up, there is a reason for it.

[Wavicle]

7 minutes ago, CompSciNerd said:

The Energy Blast set alone means you are going to burn 8 slots. 

 

Someone should correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought you could only have up to 5 Sudden Acceleration and 1 Overwhelming Force for a total of 6?

 

My Energy Blaster only has these in her AoEs. My Peacebringer has them in AoEs and a melee attack.

Would I use something that let me do them all at once?

Maybe. It would depend what I would have to give up to get it.

 

I definitely don't think it should just be an option for free. It needs to be a power or enhancement. If it's a power then the cost is the opportunity to use whatever else could fit in that slot (thinking of Incarnates). If it's an enhancement it needs to come with a penalty, such as "Slotting this enhancement turns all Knockback to Knockdown, but also inflicts a 15% -Damage debuff on the player."

Edited March 7, 2023 by Wavicle

[CompSciNerd]

1 hour ago, Wavicle said:

The only way I will support this kind of thing (which normally would be better at Null the Gull than anywhere else) is if it is added as a Power of some kind (Normal or Incarnate), so that it comes with an opportunity cost.

 

So your thinking an extra toggle power you could put in your tray that modifies other powers?  Sort of like "walk" modifies your toons natural stride changing it on the fly?  I could get behind that idea too.

 

Not bad.

[twozerofoxtrot]

3 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

"Slotting this enhancement turns all Knockback to Knockdown, but also inflicts a 10% -Damage debuff on the player."

 

This is exactly what Thunderspy does via a toggle that every character has available at level one.

 

10 minutes ago, CompSciNerd said:

TBH, I haven't spent a lot to time in the forums.

 

Run. RUN!!

[Wavicle]

Actually I was imagining a passive. Always on, no end cost. But I specifically imagine it as an Incarnate power, so it’s not available until 50 (45 when Exing) and it locks out whatever else could have gone in that Incarnate slot.

[Wavicle]

1 minute ago, twozerofoxtrot said:

 

This is exactly what Thunderspy does via a toggle that every character has available at level one.

lol, I don’t think that’s how I’d do it.

[CompSciNerd]

8 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

Actually I was imagining a passive. Always on, no end cost. But I specifically imagine it as an Incarnate power, so it’s not available until 50 (45 when Exing) and it locks out whatever else could have gone in that Incarnate slot.

 

Hmmm...  I like the passive, no endurance idea.  But when I'm building my toons I like to know what they are going to do up front.  That way I can think about how I'm going to build him, get used to any nuances as I play, etc.  A lot of the times the theme off my character depends on this stuff too.  I would want to have this available from the get go.

[Wavicle]

Besides Energy Blast and Peacebringers is there anyone who actually would benefit from this in a big way? Everyone else has like 1 or maybe 2 such powers at most.

Seems to me, a better solution is simply to give Energy Blast users such a toggle. Maybe PBs too.

[Rudra]

2 hours ago, CompSciNerd said:

 

TBH, I haven't spent a lot to time in the forums.  If this is a topic that is being brought up again, clearly people are not happy with the current solution.  So it is not solved to the satisfaction of the players.

That is because those players want to be able to min-max their characters better. "Why should I have to pay an enhancement tax to not deal with KB?" Because it isn't an enhancement tax. You get comparable set bonuses and even enhancement bonuses using the KB set that has the KB-KD proc. You may not be getting the bonuses you want, but you are getting comparable bonuses. The proc is only a tax if the player insists on only slotting the proc and not any other parts of the set.

 

2 hours ago, CompSciNerd said:

You can have multiple builds.

 

3 hours ago, Rudra said:

And you can still use both builds to do what you are saying. One build has the KB-KD enhancements slotted while the other build does not. Now you are free to use KB when you want and KD when you don't.

 

2 hours ago, CompSciNerd said:

why would want to waste enhancement slots on something that there is wide support that should behave differently? 

And that is the problem right there. The KB sets are not a waste. You are asking for power creep. You want the benefit of an enhancement without having to get and use that enhancement so that you can better munchkinize your character.

 

2 hours ago, CompSciNerd said:

The Energy Blast set alone means you are going to burn 8 slots.  What could you do with 8 extra slots...?  That is a band-aid solution.

More power creep argument.

 

2 hours ago, CompSciNerd said:

More options, more play styles supported.  Win, win.

We already have the options you are talking about. They are in the form of slottable enhancements. That is why enhancements exist in such variety with different set bonuses and even enhancement bonuses.

 

2 hours ago, CompSciNerd said:

  Every team I have been on the tank complains about the knock back.  For years.  And not just the tank, 'trollers too.  Some of those powerset have a lot more potential this way and are waisted sets now because people just aren't going to deal with it.  I'm sorry you disagree with that, but experience says otherwise.

Experience also says that those that know how to use their knockback can herd the mobs into the tanks and into the controller's effects. Knockback is always away from your character. Including down if you get above them.

 

Summary? Power creep is bad and this suggestion is pure power creep all the way.

Edited March 7, 2023 by Rudra
Edited to correct "and" to "can".

[Parabola]

1 hour ago, Wavicle said:

Besides Energy Blast and Peacebringers is there anyone who actually would benefit from this in a big way?

I find myself wishing I had a universal kb mag reduction when playing some melee sets vs kb vulnerable enemies. Battle axe vs clockwork for example can be an utter pain.

 

2 minutes ago, Rudra said:

power creep

Overall I don't entirely disagree but surely there has to come a point where we accept that this idea simply isn't going away and the people requesting it over and over again have legitimate reasons.

 

Preventing power creep is an admirable position but only so far as it serves the interests of the overall health of the game. If enough people find kb to be detrimental to their experience of the game then that isn't serving the greater good.

 

Also, I don't think the sets that would benefit the most (energy blast and peacebringers) would be pulling up trees even with some sort of toggle. For my money they would move into the 'maybe playable' bracket as opposed to the 'never going to touch them' bin where they currently reside.

[Rudra]

32 minutes ago, Parabola said:

I find myself wishing I had a universal kb mag reduction when playing some melee sets vs kb vulnerable enemies. Battle axe vs clockwork for example can be an utter pain.

 

Overall I don't entirely disagree but surely there has to come a point where we accept that this idea simply isn't going away and the people requesting it over and over again have legitimate reasons.

 

Preventing power creep is an admirable position but only so far as it serves the interests of the overall health of the game. If enough people find kb to be detrimental to their experience of the game then that isn't serving the greater good.

 

Also, I don't think the sets that would benefit the most (energy blast and peacebringers) would be pulling up trees even with some sort of toggle. For my money they would move into the 'maybe playable' bracket as opposed to the 'never going to touch them' bin where they currently reside.

I don't play Kheldians because I hate them. Never got over a lone lieutenant constantly 1-shotting my level 1 PB making the mission impossible to complete. So I don't care what happens with them. Energy Blast though? My Energy Blast Blaster is my 2nd most powerful Blaster. (Edit: Well, ranged character since I count my Corruptors in that mix too. And my most powerful ranged character is my fire/dark Corruptor.) Absolutely devastating the mobs regardless of faction or mission. So I very much disagree that the OP would make them "maybe playable".

 

How about this? If the players want free KB to KD so they don't have to slot the enhancements we already have to do exactly that? Then I would be fine with them getting a toggle to do so if they suffered a -33.3% damage penalty while the toggle was active. (Edit: Actually, make it a -42.4% damage penalty while the toggle is active. A negative IO rather than SO.)

Edited March 7, 2023 by Rudra
Edited to add missing "1" for "level 1 PB".

[Parabola]

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

I don't play Kheldians because I hate them. Never got over a lone lieutenant constantly 1-shotting my level 1 PB making the mission impossible to complete. So I don't care what happens with them. Energy Blast though? My Energy Blast Blaster is my 2nd most powerful Blaster. (Edit: Well, ranged character since I count my Corruptors in that mix too. And my most powerful ranged character is my fire/dark Corruptor.) Absolutely devastating the mobs regardless of faction or mission. So I very much disagree that the OP would make them "maybe playable".

 

How about this? If the players want free KB to KD so they don't have to slot the enhancements we already have to do exactly that? Then I would be fine with them getting a toggle to do so if they suffered a -33.3% damage penalty while the toggle was active. (Edit: Actually, make it a -42.4% damage penalty while the toggle is active. A negative IO rather than SO.)

If there absolutely had to be a penalty for using the toggle then sure. I'd leave it to the devs to find the right balance. I'd ideally prefer to go in the other direction: give kb something extra that is lost when it is turned into kd. Obviously more technically complicated by far so might not be feasible but in an ideal world...

 

Re energy blast. To be completely honest my biggest gripe with the set isn't the kb, it's how inconsistent that kb actually is. When aoes only have a % chance of kb they are all but guaranteed to scatter mobs. Yes, it is possible to limit this through positioning but personally I don't find the game enjoyable trying to hover over mobs (camera control etc). If slotting kb enhancement could raise the probability of kb to 100% I'd be all over the set.

[JasperStone]

Welcome to the forums!

I am sorry to your first foray here is this topic.

 

You will get a a lot of push back.

 

If you cite a Peacebringer - "Well I don't play them because I hate them"

Cite an Energy blaster - ditto OR "Well don't play them"

 

You will hear slot KB-KD it is the TAX for playing those kinda of powers. To me it is the PENALTY.

 

Trust me. They will not listen.

 

I even offered an in game option that ALREADY exists and is glorious when it hits.

Psi tornado does KNOCKBACK

...

Oh really?

I remember crafting something (STILL can't find what it was)

Dropping it into a slot ....it dissappeared

BUT

Now it does 50% KNOCKUP

 

ALREADY EXISTS.

 

Also as a reminder.

 

Nobody here will  listen

and will scream powercreep

/jranger

etc.

 

But I hear you.

 

 

[UltraAlt]

8 hours ago, CompSciNerd said:

But anyone who has played this game for more than a few levels knows knock back on some powers can at a minimum be more annoying than the power set itself is worth.

 

Not me. Some people use knockback better than others, but I've never been annoyed by it.

 

8 hours ago, CompSciNerd said:

Many people simply do not use some power sets at all because of this

 

Speculative. But given the level 50 heavy population and my experienced general mentality of level 50s, I will agree that it is more likely that in level 50 content that many players have been beaten down by pier pressure that knockback is bad and should not be used ... unless the proc is used to turn to knockdown ...

 

8 hours ago, CompSciNerd said:

if they do they have to waste an enhancement slot for a knock back to knock down converter that could be used for anything else.

 

Here's a hint.

If you can use that slot better for something else, then you aren't getting that power at all or you are putting something else in that power to make it stronger.

 

Personally, I would put another knockback enhancement in it before slotting a knockback to knockdown, because, at this point, if I have a power with knockback I'm already putting at least one knockback enhancement in it.

 

9 hours ago, CompSciNerd said:

....Like a team build.

 

We all have access to two character builds for every toon at the trainer called "Select your active build" (if you were not aware of that)...

 

If I used builds, I would make my second on a large team build, but the difference would be that it was mostly AoEs versus single target attacks.

Removing knockback would never be a consideration.

 

9 hours ago, CompSciNerd said:

one build with knock down (which I think will become the popular choice)

 

Anyone that is against knockback is either melee or doesn't know how to use knockback properly.

 

And, honestly, the melee that don't like it don't like chasing enemies because someone doesn't know how to use it, or it's just a knee-jerk response to hate knockback.

Instead of asking the group to hold up of a second and explain how to use knockback effectively, the melee player (who seriously is always the one most likely to lack patience) starts berating someone for the horrendous sin of using a power with knockback. These are, however, that same players that only know how to play the game one way and everyone else is ruining the game by not supporting their playstyle.

 

Anyone that hates knockback should make a blaster with ?/Martial arts; slot 2 accs, 1 knockback, 1 recharge, and Blistering Cold: Recharge/Chance for Hold (https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Blistering_Cold:_Recharge/Chance_for_Hold), put it on autofire and figure out how to knock enemies into a wall.

First off, when you use this, enemies are going to go flying and will have good in-air hang time. It is as good as a hold.

With one recharge in it and the recharge from the Blistering Cold proc, it's going to be recharged before the enemy can stand up again.

With the Blistering Cold proc, you have a chance of holding the enemy as well in a block of ice.

If you don't aim the enemy at a wall, you have time to get off 2 or 3 shots before they can get back up.

If you aim them at a wall and close on them in order to hit them with Ki push again, you can hit them with at least one shot before they get back up to be knocked back by the next Ki push.

 

Knockback doesn't work against AVs and some boss, but the Ki Push slotted like that is going to knockback any other enemy a majority of the time.

 

If you can't see the fun in knockback at that point or see how it can be useful to the team, then knockback is not for you.

 

I let some players pier pressure me into putting the knockback to knockdown proc in a stormy when I started playing again (really didn't do anything with the power that was not melee friendly even during that encounter with the impatient melee player ... mind you, just one player on the team complained), but once I made a ?/martial arts blaster ...all those knockback to knockdown procs were pulled out of my characters.

 

This isn't to say that players shouldn't use the knockback to knockdown procs.

Please use them. Buy extras for when you may need them.

They are available on the market for a very reasonable price.

Thanks for your influence.

[UltraAlt]

4 hours ago, Rudra said:

I don't play Kheldians because I hate them. Never got over a lone lieutenant constantly 1-shotting my level 1 PB making the mission impossible to complete.

 

Really?

I haven't experienced that in Homecoming. Anti-Kheldian forces have been greatly nerfed.

But, I have only made one, and they primarily fight in human form. They only transform into squid mode when there is a taunting tank around or there is that need for the last bit of DPS to take down enemies once the anti-Kheldians in the group are down.

[FupDup]

47 minutes ago, UltraAlt said:

 

Really?

I haven't experienced that in Homecoming. Anti-Kheldian forces have been greatly nerfed.

But, I have only made one, and they primarily fight in human form. They only transform into squid mode when there is a taunting tank around or there is that need for the last bit of DPS to take down enemies once the anti-Kheldians in the group are down.

In very early levels playing solo it's definitely very possible (and likely) to get oneshotted or twoshotted by Void Seekers as a Kheld. The way you feel is basically the Puss in boots meme where he sees death. 

 

Ironically, the only way I figured out to survive against them in early levels was to always start fights with the Nemesis Staff (knockback) so they couldn't attack for a few seconds. Then throw everything at them to try to prevent them from getting back up. 

[Captain Fabulous]

5 hours ago, Rudra said:

How about this? If the players want free KB to KD so they don't have to slot the enhancements we already have to do exactly that? Then I would be fine with them getting a toggle to do so if they suffered a -33.3% damage penalty while the toggle was active. (Edit: Actually, make it a -42.4% damage penalty while the toggle is active. A negative IO rather than SO.)

How about no? More options = better. Having to burn an enhancement slot isn't always ideal. Having a zero-cost passive or toggle power isn't always ideal either. But the more options we have the better. I really do not understand the pushback here.

If I suggested that all KB in the game be reduced to MAG 0.67 so that it's KD, with the excuse that you could then slot KB enhancers to turn it in KB if you wanted to, with a massive -tohit and/or -dmg penalty, you'd lose your GD mind. So why is the reverse OK?

Sometimes KB is a good thing and sometimes it's not. Giving us the flexibility to control it better is a plus, not a minus, especially since no one will ever force you to use said options if you choose not to.

[FupDup]

For energy blast, what I've always wanted is a revamp that integrates a toggle as an actual power that takes up a power pick. Something like this:

 

Focused Force (Toggle)

>Replaces Aim

>While active, removes all knockback and knockdown but gives you a small damage and to-hit buff and costs some endurance

 

The way I think about it is that the normal energy blast is like a shotgun, spraying a big load of energy all over the place that can yeet people. Focused Force however would be more of a precision rifle shot, not yeeting anyone because the force is focused into a very small surface area. 

 

Yes, I know that most people would run that toggle all the time. I'm not terribly bothered by that because of the polarizing design that KB has in any non-solo environment. This would certainly let people experience both sides (yeeting and not-yeeting) in a seamless way that doesn't require them to level the character up to 50 twice and spend twice as much inf putting two builds together.

 

And this wouldn't even totally remove the utility of the KB to KD enhancements because using those would still give you some soft control, whereas this toggle wouldn't even let you have any KD at all. 

[Captain Fabulous]

3 minutes ago, FupDup said:

For energy blast, what I've always wanted is a revamp that integrates a toggle as an actual power that takes up a power pick. Something like this:

 

Focused Force (Toggle)

>Replaces Aim

>While active, removes all knockback and knockdown but gives you a small damage and to-hit buff and costs some endurance

 

The way I think about it is that the normal energy blast is like a shotgun, spraying a big load of energy all over the place that can yeet people. Focused Force however would be more of a precision rifle shot, not yeeting anyone because the force is focused into a very small surface area. 

 

Yes, I know that most people would run that toggle all the time. I'm not terribly bothered by that because of the polarizing design that KB has in any non-solo environment. This would certainly let people experience both sides (yeeting and not-yeeting) in a seamless way that doesn't require them to level the character up to 50 twice and spend twice as much inf putting two builds together.

 

And this wouldn't even totally remove the utility of the KB to KD enhancements because using those would still give you some soft control, whereas this toggle wouldn't even let you have any KD at all. 

Honestly I'd like to see such a power available to everyone from the P2W vendor. A zero-endurance toggle that reduces all KB to KD. This way one can choose this if you want it to cover all your powers (and have the ability to turn it on or off at will) or opt for IOs if you just want to convert specific powers.

[0th Power]

Random thoughts.

 

I like KB.  And I like the ability of turning it off on individual powers (I will slot it on explosive blast, but never on Nova).

 

With a free toggle there would be pressure from teammates to run said toggle.  

 

I wouldn't have a problem telling people no.  Whether or not that would get me booted from teams, would yet to be seen.

 

Also, I think KB distance should give bonus damage.

 

 

 

[Wavicle]

1 hour ago, Captain Fabulous said:

If I suggested that all KB in the game be reduced to MAG 0.67 so that it's KD, with the excuse that you could then slot KB enhancers to turn it in KB if you wanted to, with a massive -tohit and/or -dmg penalty, you'd lose your GD mind. So why is the reverse OK?

Because typically adding kb2kd is a sizable dps increase, that’s why.

[JasperStone]

1 minute ago, Wavicle said:

Because typically adding kb2kd is a sizable dps increase, that’s why.

There is?