Misconceptions about a tank

[tidge]

23 hours ago, ZemX said:

There's also nothing else you have access to that's as powerful a taunt.   Punch-voke and auras are ~14-15 sec duration.   Taunt is 41 sec.   And with taunt effects, weirdly, duration also affects how strongly the taunt magnifies your threat for that mob.  A single pulse of a taunt aura is relatively weak if you don't follow it up with attacks.

 

I would encourage you to take Taunt on a test drive.  We can natter on at you extolling its virtues from our own tanking experience, but judging for yourself is always best. 

 

I'm firmly on the side of "Take Taunt; you don't have to slot it if you don't want to". There is nothing ANYONE has access to that is as powerful as Taunt. Provoke is weak sauce (not an auto-hit, so you practically must slot it) and the single-target Confronts are (ehem) single-target.

 

I try to take it soon enough that it is available for the lowest-level TF/SF. Blue side, Positron 1 (and the Hollow's Caverns) Trial are easy ways to sort 'selfish' (selfish in the sense that they think their natural charm and good looks chosen melee attacks and auras will be enough to control the battlefield) Tankers and Tankers who are explicitly looking out for the teammates.

[ZemX]

15 minutes ago, tidge said:

Blue side, Positron 1 (and the Hollow's Caverns) Trial are easy ways to sort 'selfish' (selfish in the sense that they think their natural charm and good looks chosen melee attacks and auras will be enough to control the battlefield) Tankers and Tankers who are explicitly looking out for the teammates.

 

I'm not quite THAT strict 🙂.  Level 8-16 TFs and Trials aren't a great judge of anyone's build.  You've got anywhere from 6 to 12 powers total depending what level you are when running it, so those are all difficult choices.  Prioritizing survival over a ranged Taunt isn't necessarily a bad choice.  Taunt auras and attacks together can do more to control aggro than Taunt at such a low level while also contributing some damage to the team.  You just won't have that nice ranged grab ability for strays.   

 

I might have Taunt pre-20 but often I don't.  I'll have it for everything after the lowest level TFs and Trials, which suits me fine because I prefer to do those only once for the badge.  Don't enjoy having so few powers and the content isn't all that interesting either so I have little reason to revisit those later.  

 

I think where people get in trouble with aura taunts is forgetting they pulse rather slowly.  Like once a second or even once every 2 seconds.   So running through a group of enemies really only taunts some of them with the aura.  The others are just aggroed and can easily be pulled away by anyone else attacking.   This means you can't just dash out with CT or CJ and aura taunt something quickly.  Depending on powerset it can be 1-2 seconds just to get the taunt to land once you're standing next to them.  Might be quicker even to use an AoE, though many of those can be just as slow.

 

What auras are really best at is keeping stuff you have collected around you glued to you.  That's done by layering attacks on them while they are taunted by the aura.  That builds threat very quickly and frees up Taunt to be always ready for a ranged grab. 

[tidge]

4 hours ago, ZemX said:

 

I'm not quite THAT strict 🙂.  Level 8-16 TFs and Trials aren't a great judge of anyone's build.  You've got anywhere from 6 to 12 powers total depending what level you are when running it, so those are all difficult choices.  Prioritizing survival over a ranged Taunt isn't necessarily a bad choice.

 

I hear you, but I don't grok. (Tankers) Loading up on toggles at low levels (with or without running them) without having Taunt seems like a waste of effort; loading up on low-level attacks and trying to spam those instead of Taunting feels like a recipe for disaster. This is just me:I think it is easier to choose a Tanker primary power to delay instead of delaying the choice of Taunt from the secondary.

[ZemX]

1 hour ago, tidge said:

I hear you, but I don't grok. (Tankers) Loading up on toggles at low levels (with or without running them) without having Taunt seems like a waste of effort

 

Nah, it works fine.   Controlling aggro without Taunt is possible.  It's just more effort.  You have to hustle around more to melee taunt stuff instead of being able to stay put and just yell at it.  It's perfectly possible to do though in the lowest level TFs/Trials, particularly when I am not going to be running that content more than once on a given toon.  And sometimes I can fit Taunt in before 20.  Sometimes not.  Depends what powers are available.  Some sets have some powers I consider much more valuable in the low levels.  Others don't. 

 

If you see Tanks not controlling aggro well, it's more than likely not their power selection that's the problem.  It's their play.  They're just not making aggro control a priority.  They might be getting tunnel-vision on a few mobs in front of them and not "keeping their head on a swivel" as they say so they can intervene to cut off aggro that might be heading over to eviscerate a Blaster, for example.

[PLVRIZR]

48 minutes ago, ZemX said:

If you see Tanks not controlling aggro well, it's more than likely not their power selection that's the problem.  It's their play.  They're just not making aggro control a priority. 

 

Agree, wholeheartedly. 

 

I differ in that along with @tidge I take taunt at 10 (or 12), because with the Prestige attacks (Sands of Mu, Blackwand and Nemesis Staff), the tanker primaries are a priority.  Sure, certain combos might dictate another attack or two, especially if I'm using the first two attacks taken to slot the ATO(s) - and prioritizing the procs.  

 

But I'm old and more casual (read:  lazy), so if I want frantic, I'll pull out the Kin/Dark defender or one of the MMs 😁

[biostem]

1 hour ago, ZemX said:

If you see Tanks not controlling aggro well, it's more than likely not their power selection that's the problem.  It's their play.  They're just not making aggro control a priority.  They might be getting tunnel-vision on a few mobs in front of them and not "keeping their head on a swivel" as they say so they can intervene to cut off aggro that might be heading over to eviscerate a Blaster, for example.

It could also be a matter of several people on the team vying for leadership of the team, insofar as selecting which groups to attack, when, and where.  When I'm on my tanker, unless there's some understanding beforehand, I will aggro groups in a steady and intentional pace, which some folks don't find to be fast enough.  The notion of "cleaning up your mess" and/or clearing any stragglers before moving on, is alien to some people...

[StriderIV]

Ok guys, serious question here: which attack set has the coolest taunt animation in the game? 😎

[biostem]

Just now, StriderIV said:

Ok guys, serious question here: which attack set has the coolest taunt animation in the game? 😎

I'd have to give that to staff fighting.

[twozerofoxtrot]

3 minutes ago, StriderIV said:

Ok guys, serious question here: which attack set has the coolest taunt animation in the game? 😎

 

Any 1h weapon paired with SD

 

Edit: Psi is fun too, if you like to RP the Psi aspect of the set.

Edited June 1, 2023 by twozerofoxtrot

[StriderIV]

5 minutes ago, biostem said:

I'd have to give that to staff fighting.

Probably my top choice as well. Katana and any shield + single handed weapon is pretty cool also.

 

Dark Melee Soul Noir has a different animation as well, but I wouldn’t classify it as “cool.”

[twozerofoxtrot]

1 hour ago, ZemX said:

They might be getting tunnel-vision on a few mobs in front of them and not "keeping their head on a swivel" as they say so they can intervene to cut off aggro that might be heading over to eviscerate a Blaster, for example.

 

While I absolutely agree with your basic premise, the issue in the scenario you're describing as your example is that if you rush over to tickle-taunt whatever is threatening your backline, you bring everything else with you.

 

Besides the obvious threat implications, it also potentially affects any location based powers that had been used. Controls can mitigate this as an issue but then you have to assume they're present in your planning.

 

Thus I'd rather maintain my situational awareness and have a tool that allows me to maintain better enemy positioning in the field. Fortunately for me I've yet to make a tank that couldn't fit taunt in the kit.

[ZemX]

10 hours ago, twozerofoxtrot said:

Thus I'd rather maintain my situational awareness and have a tool that allows me to maintain better enemy positioning in the field. Fortunately for me I've yet to make a tank that couldn't fit taunt in the kit.

 

Me too.  I'd remind that the post of mine you're quoting is about WHEN to take Taunt, not IF.   I don't consider the question of taking Taunt pre-20 so I have it in Posi TF vs. something more like level 22 or 24 where I have it in pretty much every other piece of content I choose to run from then on... to be all that earth-shattering a decision that it needs so much discussion.  I suppose someone else who just loves running and re-running Posi 1&2 might have a different opinion and that's fine.  But to me it's just not that big a deal for a few low-level TFs where nobody really has all the powers they'd like to have anyway.

 

As I said, I have Tanks that take it pre-20 and others that don't.  It's really just about weighing each power choice at each level and deciding which I'd prefer.  Battle Axe, for example, has three single-target attacks for it's first three tiers.  Who needs three?  On top of which, that gives me nothing until Pendulum comes along at 20 to help punch-voke larger groups.   Just the ST pokes that taunt 5 around the target.   Staff, on the other hand, has one of two ST attacks I am forced to take at creation but then very nice wide AoE cone that assists punch-voke in controlling mobs, does decent damage, and adds defense.  Then a 15ft radius PBAoE at 16.  I don't skip those in the first 20 levels so I can fit in Taunt.  There are other powers I could move to squeeze in Taunt in that level range but... why do I care?  I am running Posi 1&2 once and that's that.  I don't love it.  Nor do I love running with half or less of my powers available.

 

But the point is, whether I've taken it or not, that one Posi 1&2 and anything else I choose to run at that level goes just fine.  It's not a terribly challenging stretch of levels to begin with.  Nor does it last long.

[PLVRIZR]

12 hours ago, StriderIV said:

Ok guys, serious question here: which attack set has the coolest taunt animation in the game? 😎

 

Shield/War Mace.  Nothing like standing there smacking your weapon against your shield...

[ZemX]

1 hour ago, PLVRIZR said:

Shield/War Mace.  Nothing like standing there smacking your weapon against your shield...

 

A.K.A. The "Dinner Bell".  Come and get some, losers!

 

That one is hard to beat.  Battle Axe without a shield is cool too, but I almost never see it because I am too busy to let it play tossing that Axe back and forth from hand to hand.

[tidge]

6 hours ago, ZemX said:

 

Me too.  I'd remind that the post of mine you're quoting is about WHEN to take Taunt, not IF.   I don't consider the question of taking Taunt pre-20 so I have it in Posi TF vs. something more like level 22 or 24 where I have it in pretty much every other piece of content I choose to run from then on... to be all that earth-shattering a decision that it needs so much discussion.  I suppose someone else who just loves running and re-running Posi 1&2 might have a different opinion and that's fine.  But to me it's just not that big a deal for a few low-level TFs where nobody really has all the powers they'd like to have anyway.

 

(snip)

 

But the point is, whether I've taken it or not, that one Posi 1&2 and anything else I choose to run at that level goes just fine.  It's not a terribly challenging stretch of levels to begin with.  Nor does it last long.

 

(minor editing for content and emphasis)

 

When strictly soloing Tankers, I have delayed Taunt but never skipped it. It always makes it back in as an early choice during respecs... simply because I find it to be such a unique power(*1) for Tankers (Brutes just aren't my jam, but I kinda expect them to be running from spawn-to-spawn).

 

I bring up Positron TFs  not just because of the low-level nature(*2), but because those large sewer rooms are a place for a Taunting Tanker to shine... especially the one that has two little spawns off to the sides, a boss-spawn visible from the entrance with another boss spawn very close by... a player with an aura can leave a lot of angry stragglers for the rest of the team to deal with before anyone else has even engaged the first boss spawn... and it doesn't take much from an AoE caster to get the attention of another close-by group.

 

(*1) "standing next to" (or "mezzing") an angry spawn (or GM, or AV) is not what I consider "tanking". MMV.

 

(*2) of course, the low-level nature often means that the individual members of a team won't have powers and enhancement bonuses that can be relied upon to deal with large spawns as done in high-level content.... making leaning into the unique abilities of an AT that much more important.

[Snarky]

Long time Brute player.  Due to the way HC has made changes I now roll Tanks instead of Brutes.  Slightly more survivable (generally it doesnt matter...until it does)   The AoE is significantly different.  If you are an AoE heavy build Tank is almost always better.  But even if not... Every Melee has AoE.  My Fav Dark has a few weird AoE things in the toolkit.  So an Invul Dark Tank is, for me, better than a Dark Invul Brute.  

 

I always take Taunt on Tanks.  Generally do it on Brutes now as well.  Stupidly overpowered power pick. Ranged Mezz mind control.  I even take it on my Ice Ice Tank.  And that thing can walk into a warehouse and pull (and keep) all the agro without even saying hi.