Alternative Kheldian

[Major_Decoy]

So, because of the recent changes to Dual Pistols, we know that switching between different toggles can have drastic changes to a power, to this end, I suggest an alternate kheldian approach that gives them more shape shifting ability.

 

I mean, Kheldians are fun, and it's clear that the nova form is kind of a "If you need a blaster, this is almost as good" and dwarf form is "If you need a tank, this is almost as good" but if you've got a team without a controller, dominator, or defender then your Kheldian isn't going to be filling those roles.

 

So, with that in mind; three basal forms: Human, Dwarf, Nova.

Three specializations (without a specialization active, it's just generalized, so four options): Suffusion, Infusion, Effusion

 

We get rid of form based attacks. You have a set of powers and they're the same powers across all forms, but which toggles you have active changes how they work.

 

The inherent power is Status Protection. You have status protection mag 3.

 

Nova is a ranged Specialist. With nova form active you get mag -1 penalty to status protection, your personal damage mitigation powers are less effective (the damage mitigation powers that target other players are not penalized), and all of your attacks are ranged and sacrifice control for more damage.

 

Human form is control focused, you have a mix of ranged and melee, and every attack is some form of control as well, hard controls like stuns, holds, fears, and confuse. It is not particularly good damage, but you're pretty safe because you have status protection, damage mitigation, and control.

 

Dwarf Form is the melee specialist. With dwarf form active you get mag 5 bonus to status protection, your personal damage mitigation powers are more effective, and all of your attacks are melee and sacrifice control for more damage. Also you get a taunt.

 

Suffusion gears attacks more for AoE. Single target powers gain splash areas and AoEs have higher target caps, this comes at a cost of lowered efficacy per target (but higher efficacy overall) or longer recharge times or perhaps both.

Infusion gears your powers for support. Your damage mitigation powers can potentially buff the whole team. Attacks that debuff enemies become more effective at debuffing. Because you are now buffing your whole team, the damage mitigation will be less effective for you personally.

Effusion gears your attacks for single target. Single target powers are more effective, AoEs lose targets but are more effective against the targets they do hit.

Generalist does not change your powers specifically.

 

Ideally, there would be a different look to each combination. Like a Nova Suffusion would look different from a Nova Infusion.

 

I think this would feel more like a shape shifter, because you could better change your power set to suit the needs of the team.

If you're just running from spawn to spawn, you might go with Dwarf Suffusion, but once you find an Archvillain you'll switch over to Dwarf Effusion.

 

I'd like to think that Peacebringer Dwarf Infusion would play like a melee range kinetics defender, with Dawn Strike becoming a fulcrum shift.

[JasperStone]

Would  this be a separate option?

I do like how Cosmic Balance works

 Cosmic Balance

Kheldians naturally thrive off the energy and essence of their teammates. Peacebringers' metamorphic nature allows them to bring balance to their team. Your Damage will increase for each nearby Tanker, Mastermind, Corruptor or Defender teammate. Your Damage Resistance will increase for each nearby Scrapper, Sentinel, Brute, Stalker or Blaster teammate. Each nearby Controller or Dominator teammate will grant you limited Protection from Control effects. Finally, each nearby Peacebringer, Warshade, or teamed Arachnos Soldier or Widow grants you some resistance to attack time slow effects. You cannot put Enhancements in this power.

 

I treat these two as holds or controls- I frankenslot the LockDown Proc

Incandescent

Strike 16Melee, Extreme DMG(Smash/Energy), Foe Hold, -DEF, -Fly

Pulsar

18PBAoE, Foe Disorient

 

Slotting all the knockback to knockdowns is a form of control.

 

Not saying No.

As a choice, Yes.

[Major_Decoy]

That's why I called it Alternative instead of revamp. It's intended to work with the same backstory and animations, but the changes are way too significant to try to replace one with the other.

[Major_Decoy]

1 hour ago, JasperStone said:

Would  this be a separate option?

I do like how Cosmic Balance works

 Cosmic Balance

Kheldians naturally thrive off the energy and essence of their teammates. Peacebringers' metamorphic nature allows them to bring balance to their team. Your Damage will increase for each nearby Tanker, Mastermind, Corruptor or Defender teammate. Your Damage Resistance will increase for each nearby Scrapper, Sentinel, Brute, Stalker or Blaster teammate. Each nearby Controller or Dominator teammate will grant you limited Protection from Control effects. Finally, each nearby Peacebringer, Warshade, or teamed Arachnos Soldier or Widow grants you some resistance to attack time slow effects. You cannot put Enhancements in this power.

Yes, that's alright for Peacebringers. Warshades kind of get the short end of the stick there though. I mean, more damage when you've got a lot of high damage characters doesn't hurt, but more damage resistance on a team full of tanks and defenders isn't particularly exciting. I understand for flavor when it's done that way but it's not really helpful.

[Glacier Peak]

Just wanted to mention that Peacebringers have a great single ally heal that recharges fast and can heal a decent amount of health, nearly all of their attacks produce a knockback effect and their best single target attack (Incandescent Strike) has a hold and can be proc'd with additional mez effects, and they can summon pets to explode on targets. 

[Major_Decoy]

3 hours ago, Glacier Peak said:

Just wanted to mention that Peacebringers have a great single ally heal that recharges fast and can heal a decent amount of health, nearly all of their attacks produce a knockback effect and their best single target attack (Incandescent Strike) has a hold and can be proc'd with additional mez effects, and they can summon pets to explode on targets. 

Yes. Also most peacebringer attacks debuff defense, and Warshades have one hold and one immobilize and all of their attacks have foe -recharge. And they summon pets from corpses.

 

But one heal doesn't make you a defender and one hold doesn't make you a controller.

[Rudra]

2 hours ago, Major_Decoy said:

Yes. Also most peacebringer attacks debuff defense, and Warshades have one hold and one immobilize and all of their attacks have foe -recharge. And they summon pets from corpses.

 

But one heal doesn't make you a defender and one hold doesn't make you a controller.

My guess would be because PBs aren't meant to be Defenders and WSs aren't meant to be Controllers. They already function well as Blasters and even Tankers, especially while on a team. I've watched PBs go Dwarf form and save the team Tanker by tanking alongside him/her. I've watched PBs go Nova form and proceed to curb stomp spawns our small team was getting obliterated by because TFs didn't scale down for team size back then and half our team had just quit on us. And with the PB's seemingly constant KB effect, as long as the PB could keep the targets in a forward cone, there was no counter-attack from the mobs. So now you have a Blaster-Tanker-Controller, all wrapped up in a single AT. It was watching that  mid-level 20 PB on our team that convinced me to try the AT in the first place.

 

As I've said before, I don't like Kheldians because of what happened when I tried them back on Live. So I readily admit I have no stake in this discussion. However, I do want to say that making Kheldians into the everything AT seems a bit too far to me. Why play any other AT if this AT already is every AT? Especially if Voids no longer do untyped damage that obliterates low-level Kheldians. Y'all discuss this and figure it out, this is the only post I expect to make on this thread. (Though I also admit I had not intended to make any posts on this thread because as I said, I have no stake in it.) I just wanted to share that thought.

[Major_Decoy]

10 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Why play any other AT if this AT already is every AT?

Because different power sets play differently and loan themselves to different concepts. This is the game of altitis. We have 1000 character slots but only 15 archetypes. Going by your reasoning no one would currently ever need to make more than 12 (Because what's the point in making a peacebringer, a warshade, a tank, and a blaster? The peacebringer is roughly the same as the other three)

 

I really do not understand the point you're trying to make with this question.

 

Quote

My guess would be because PBs aren't meant to be Defenders and WSs aren't meant to be Controllers.

Yes, that is my argument.

 

However, I think it would be nice if Peacebringers and Warshades had the option to become defenders and controllers in a pinch. So you could better adapt to a team's need, like you might expect a shapeshifter to be able to do.

 

 

[OldManMercy]

Alternate? as in optional, or another option? Then I'm game. If alternate means replacement, then this sounds like a sure-fire way to get me to delete my PB and WS. I lurve my human form kheldians just the way they are.

[biostem]

If you look at how dual pistol powers are in their descriptions, you'll notice that each and every one, (that is affected by the ammo swapping ability), has to be coded to account for each form.  This means each and every Kheldian power that would allow such "modes" would have to be revamped to permit this change.  In short, not likely to happen.   That being said, what I would like to see is some way of further customizing the existing Nova and Dwarf forms - either by being able to color more than the aura effect, or by entirely replacing/doing away with the model replacer...

[Major_Decoy]

11 minutes ago, biostem said:

If you look at how dual pistol powers are in their descriptions, you'll notice that each and every one, (that is affected by the ammo swapping ability), has to be coded to account for each form.  This means each and every Kheldian power that would allow such "modes" would have to be revamped to permit this change.  In short, not likely to happen.   That being said, what I would like to see is some way of further customizing the existing Nova and Dwarf forms - either by being able to color more than the aura effect, or by entirely replacing/doing away with the model replacer...

 

Well, the idea is that it would be an entirely new build from the ground up. It wouldn't get rid of the existing Kheldian options, it would be a new one. I don't know if it'd still be broken up by Peacebringer and Warshade or if you'd be able to choose Luminous Blast with Umbral Aura for a Peaceshade or Umbral Blast with Luminous Aura for Warbringer.

[biostem]

14 minutes ago, Major_Decoy said:

Well, the idea is that it would be an entirely new build from the ground up. It wouldn't get rid of the existing Kheldian options, it would be a new one. I don't know if it'd still be broken up by Peacebringer and Warshade or if you'd be able to choose Luminous Blast with Umbral Aura for a Peaceshade or Umbral Blast with Luminous Aura for Warbringer.

Do you mean like an entirely new Kheldian AT option, with the features/options you mentioned?  It's not impossible, but it'd be a lot of work...

[JasperStone]

These were planned. If any of the code exists....would rather these come forward

 

Coralax - are a race of aquatic humanoids who were mentioned as a possible Epic Archetype. 

https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Coralax 

 

The Blood of the Black Stream - are a group of Egyptian Shapeshifters mentioned in Mr. Bocor's story arc.

 

Avilans - were going to be a race of winged humanoids, but were canceled when winged costume options for all characters were shown to be possible.

 

Nictus - were originally going to be the Villain Epic Archetype (giving them a direct copy of the Hero's Kheldians), but were canceled in favor of the Soldiers of Arachnos. 

 

Incarnates -  were originally planned as an epic archetype, but it was decided to implement them instead as an endgame system that all existing archetypes could participate in. We have this...so ok

 

Devoured -  was a proposed Praetorian Epic Archetype that was never implemented. All that remains in the game are unused Inherent powers. 

 

Hyper-Advanced Clockwork - Hyper-Advanced Clockwork have three modes of Operation: Standard, Offensive Mode or Defensive Mode. These are controlled by a pair of Toggle powers. When neither is engaged, the HAC uses standard modifiers, which favor Buff, Debuff and Movement powers. If the Offense Mode toggle is engaged, then the focus shifts, becoming weaker to Buff, Debuff and Movement values, but Recharge, To Hit and Damage are increased. In Defensive Mode, the ATmods shift, becoming weaker to Buff, Debuff and Movement values, but stronger to Damage Resistances, Status changes and Regeneration. HAC's are harder to heal and are vulnerable to Electro-Magnetic effects. OOOO this!

 

Primalist - were a proposed shape-shifting Epic Archetype that featured a mix of damage, enemy debuffs, and ally buffs, depending on your current form. Although the power sets had been defined, Positron confirmed at the game's closure that plans for the Primalist Archetype had been scrapped due to its complexity.

[JasperStone]

13 hours ago, Major_Decoy said:

Because different power sets play differently and loan themselves to different concepts. This is the game of altitis. We have 1000 character slots but only 15 archetypes. Going by your reasoning no one would currently ever need to make more than 12 (Because what's the point in making a peacebringer, a warshade, a tank, and a blaster? The peacebringer is roughly the same as the other three)

 

I really do not understand the point you're trying to make with this question.

 

Yes, that is my argument.

 

However, I think it would be nice if Peacebringers and Warshades had the option to become defenders and controllers in a pinch. So you could better adapt to a team's need, like you might expect a shapeshifter to be able to do.

 

 

 

I have multiple Tanks, blasters, etc.

Altitis? A bit, one server is full.

 

I have one each of the Heats and Veats.

They are the ONLY ATs where I fully invest in the multiple builds.

Tri/Form

Human/Nova

Human/Dwarf

And still want more build options.

 

Both of them have Defender and Controller type actions.

Can't tell you how many times I hit Heal Ally to save a Teammate about to go down. Giving them time to get out harms' way.

If you want more of those options ... play a Def or Troller

 

If you what you are proposing is an option ... sure. 

I think we have other options to explore that were scrapped that tie into the game and seem to be very unique in game play.

 

[Major_Decoy]

29 minutes ago, JasperStone said:

Both of them have Defender and Controller type actions.

Can't tell you how many times I hit Heal Ally to save a Teammate about to go down.

If you look at Super Strength and Luminous Blast (just the human form powers) you'll find that they both have similar amounts of holds, knockback (though Peacebringer has more AoE knockback), and disorient. Stone Melee is about the same too. War Mace and Street Justice focus more on disorient and lose the hold, and War Axe focuses more on knockdown and loses the hold. An Energy Blaster that takes Knock-out Blow from Leviathan Mastery has many Controller type actions as a Peacebringer.

Warshade loses a lot of soft control (as compared to Peacebringer) in favor of -recharge debuffs, but it does have a hold, an immobilize, and a disorient aura that's cool, but would be cooler if you could use it in dwarf form. (same thing is true of Orbiting Death. Eclipse doesn't even provide status protection). You can call those "Controller and Defender type actions" if you really want to, but they're tools that almost every other archetype has access to too, at the very least through ancillary power pool options that Kheldians don't get.

 

I am NOT saying that current Kheldians are bad.

 

There are some really powerful builds out there and people who can leverage the very most from the archetype.

 

What I am saying is that if you're playing through a Task Force on a Warshade and you discover "Oh, we are really not doing as much damage as I though we would be, we could use a blaster" and you've actually slotted your Nova Form attacks, you can switch to nova form and pick up the slack. If you discover that your tank has skipped Unyielding because it didn't sound cool and you have invested slots in your Dwarf Form, you can switch to Dwarf Form and take over tanking duties.

 

But those are the two roles you can shapeshift to fill. You can't get better at buffing or debuffing than you are in human form, and you can't get better at controlling either. What makes those roles sacrosanct?

 

When the game was launched, you couldn't have one attack do different things depending on if you have a specific toggle active. You can now.

 

Why an alternate kheldian? Because the bodies and the animations for those bodies exist already. Because the lore exists already. Because it'd be interesting to see what the current developers could do with kheldians if they don't have to worry about the cottage rule.

[JasperStone]

This is not the cottage rule I am recommending against the unnecessary.

 

On 7/4/2023 at 4:41 PM, biostem said:

Do you mean like an entirely new Kheldian AT option, with the features/options you mentioned?  It's not impossible, but it'd be a lot of work...

Also ...The volume of work it would be.

 

It is why I posted from Wiki the other planned HEATS/VEATS.  Better options.

 

You are outright saying Kheldians are bad because they don't do "XY and Z"

 

I always highly recommend TriForm and have found myself contributing a lot.

 

Having teamed with Warshades ... I have never wished they could do more buffing and debuffing.

When you have two? wow... we are really mowing through stuff.

 

It is at this point I quote ....sorta ... Our beloved Jack E.

[You have to make choices as a hero/villian]

I do remember the choices I had to make to get the Fitness pool to fit.

AND the fighting pool.

Now, a tad easier.

Very aware now of how not having to take T1 in my secondary impacts my builds.

 

Choices.

 

This may not be the AT for you - not meant as a harsh statement.

But you seem to want something from this AT that it does not do.

 

One of my past projects was spending a year on one character.

That was my PB. Remade him from Live and had a great time.*ok ...did a few other things ... but mostly worked on him*

Be creative. Work with what you have.

 

To me, your recommendation is a completely different AT.

Which is a great!

*points again to post on past proposed ATs*

 

Question:

Where does this exist in the kheldian lore? Admittedly my wiki fu search is not the best.

 

[Player2]

As a player of a human-form-only peacebringer, I'm not sure I like the proposed changes as it would turn my semi-blastery hero (who does not identify as a peacebringer) into a controller. If I want a controller, I'd just play a controller and actually get pets to go with it.

 

Stop trying to reinvent the wheel.  If you can do something new for the ATs that also maintains balance without dramatically changing how any given kheldian playstyle works... great.  If not, propose it as a new AT so I don't have to abandon a character that I actually like playing as it is right now.

[biostem]

I know the "either-or" mechanic that sets like Sentinel SR got for master/practiced brawler is not a huge favorite of the devs, but it'd be kind of neat if Kheldians could get alternate versions of Nova & Dwarf, with the alternate version of each that acted as a simple toggle that granted +tohit, +dmg, +rec & +res, status protection respectively, but excluded the full form switch, yet retained full access to the human-only powers.  They'd probably have to have lesser values, but it'd be a great option...