Opinions sought on DM/SR power selection...

Story Archer · July 30, 2023

This isn't about slotting IO's or anything like that, I'm looking for some thoughts about the power pool/ancillary choices that I'm making. Sorry, I can't get Mids to export so I'm just typing it up.

1) Smite

1) Focused Fighting

2) Focused Senses

4) Shadow Maul

6) Boxing

😎 Siphon Life

10) Practiced Brawler

12) Hasten

14) Agile

16) Dodge

18) Dark Consumption

20) Evasion

22) Soul Drain

24) Lucky

26) Midnight Grasp

28) Quickness

30) Tough

32) Weave

35) Gloom

38) Darkest Night

41) Combat Jumping

44) Cross Punch

47) Kick

49) Teleport

Alright, thoughts and questions:

I took the Soul Mastery Epic Pool for two reasons: I wanted to add fast-animating Gloom to my single-target attack chain and I felt like Darkest Night was the perfect compliment for SR. Is the latter assumption correct, or am I getting diminishing returns from combining high Defense with -Hit DeBuffs?

Right now, once I get my recharge up, I'm basically thinking Smite -> Gloom -> alternating Midnight Grasp and Siphon Life for a single-target attack chain and Shadow Maul -> Cross Punch - >Alternating Midnight Grasp and Siphon Life for my multi-attack chain. Taking Boxing and Kick gives Cross Punch a +30% damage bonus, and even though its cone is narrower than Shadow Maul, the two seem to work well together once I've got the baddies bunched up. Is there anything in the above thinking that is a red flag to vets?

Captain Fabulous · July 30, 2023

Just my 2 cents -- I would drop Dark Consumption and Teleport and take Maneuvers and Tactics instead. The high recharge and low damage on DC makes it not particularly useful as a damage dealer or end recovery power. Maneuvers gets you that much closer to softcap and as Dark is completely reliant upon hitting things Tactics will aid there.

If you really must have Teleport I would drop Kick and accept the 15% reduction in damage to Cross Punch.

Story Archer · July 30, 2023

11 minutes ago, Captain Fabulous said:

Just my 2 cents -- I would drop Dark Consumption and Teleport and take Maneuvers and Tactics instead. The high recharge and low damage on DC makes it not particularly useful as a damage dealer or end recovery power. Maneuvers gets you that much closer to softcap and as Dark is completely reliant upon hitting things Tactics will aid there.

If you really must have Teleport I would drop Kick and accept the 15% reduction in damage to Cross Punch.

Thanks for responding - I'm only in my late 20's right now, but I'm constantly encountering Endurance issues only to get bailed out by DC - I'm not sure I could afford dropping it AND adding additional toggles (on top of Tough/Weave). Soft Cap shouldn't be a problem once I start slotting IO's. I'm definitely aggressive when it comes to slotting for Accuracy.

FWIW, this is my primarily solo'ing character.

Edited July 30, 2023 by Story Archer

Captain Fabulous · July 30, 2023

51 minutes ago, Story Archer said:

Thanks for responding - I'm only in my late 20's right now, but I'm constantly encountering Endurance issues only to get bailed out by DC - I'm not sure I could afford dropping it AND adding additional toggles (on top of Tough/Weave). Soft Cap shouldn't be a problem once I start slotting IO's. I'm definitely aggressive when it comes to slotting for Accuracy.

FWIW, this is my primarily solo'ing character.

Endurance is a scourge for nearly everyone (except Blasters, cause this dev team LOVES Blasters, like, a lot), so I hear ya. Dark is notoriously end-heavy too. If you're finding DC useful now then continue using it. You can always respec out of it later when you can devote more slots to end reducers (you'll likely need 2 in every attack and toggle) and global IOs that give +end and +recovery.

Accuracy and tohit are different things. You can't slot powers for tohit, only accuracy. Tohit adds to your base % chance to hit, which results in your accuracy enhancements working better because they are multiplicative off your base. If at any point you see yourself wanting to consistently hit +2s or higher you're going to need both accuracy and tohit. Soul Drain helps with this because it also boosts tohit, but with so many critters having the ability to debuff tohit (and everything in Dark having a tohit check, which for Soul Drain is a catch-22 because you need to be able to hit critters in order to buff your ability to, um, hit critters...) you really can't have too much unless you're sticking to +1s.

@Snarky is a pro when it comes to Dark Brutes. Perhaps he can give his 2 pints of blood here.

Snarky · July 30, 2023

I would just go for the standard overpowered uniques. Kismet +Acc, Glad Arm, Panacea, Miracle, Shield Wall, Reactive Def, Steadfast Prot, Numina if room. You want to prop up your end. Keep Dark Consump. Its great in the odd encounter with drainers and otherwise it is ghetto AoE.

Definitely work on Recharge as a major build goal as you layer in your primary goal (which i a ssume is rock solid def) and maybe S/L resists?

I mostly build Dark Dark for Resist, and you are rocking a Defense build. So, kind of sideways to the tricks i use. You will find that Dark Melee is a wonderful toolkit set. Not one of the highest damaging AoE sets but nearly unparalleled when discussing tricks for all situations.

To hit debuff stacked with Defense is a great idea. I mean, are you incarnate softcap in all areas? If not... more is not bad... Someone cuts past your DDR.... you got backup....

Good luck. Most of all have fun.

Story Archer · July 31, 2023

Really appreciate the comments - any thoughts about backing up Shadow Maul with Cross Punch? I never see Cross Punch show up in any builds.

Snarky · July 31, 2023

53 minutes ago, Story Archer said:

Really appreciate the comments - any thoughts about backing up Shadow Maul with Cross Punch? I never see Cross Punch show up in any builds.

I never use cross punch. Shadow Maul on a Brute takes a while to get the feel of. It is very good once you learn it, but it takes a while.

One of the main reasons I do not use Cross Punch are....there are so many other good options. For instance, I think you are using TP for a travel? How about taking hover, and using it as a mule for LOTG 7.5% and then you can relax as you TP around. Double benefit. A dozen other better picks than an un enhanced meh attack from a pool.

Story Archer · July 31, 2023

12 hours ago, Snarky said:

I never use cross punch. Shadow Maul on a Brute takes a while to get the feel of. It is very good once you learn it, but it takes a while.

One of the main reasons I do not use Cross Punch are....there are so many other good options. For instance, I think you are using TP for a travel? How about taking hover, and using it as a mule for LOTG 7.5% and then you can relax as you TP around. Double benefit. A dozen other better picks than an un enhanced meh attack from a pool.

I feel really good using Shadow Maul, which is what drew me to Cross Punch in the first place - using them back-to-back seems like a great way to clear out the minions in a set that doesn't have much going for it AoE-wise... if you take Kick and Punch, it reads as a base 69 damage compared to Shadow Maul's considerable 90 damage plus it has the chance to Knock Down and Stun foes. Seems like a worthwhile inclusion to me, but I've never actually used it, so I can't say for sure. If there are better AoE attack options which would compliment the playstyle as well, out there I'm certainly open to them.

I've already got more than 5 LOTG's in my slotted build, so I don't think I can get the benefit of another one. I did take TP as a quicker 'get there from here', though I've found the free prestige powers adequate for 95% of my movement and team teleport on PUG's usually take care of the rest. I probably would have just taken Teleport Target there instead but I wanted a spot for the Blessing of the Zephyr Knock-Back IO, just in case.

Snarky · July 31, 2023

17 minutes ago, Story Archer said:

I feel really good using Shadow Maul, which is what drew me to Cross Punch in the first place - using them back-to-back seems like a great way to clear out the minions in a set that doesn't have much going for it AoE-wise... if you take Kick and Punch, it reads as a base 69 damage compared to Shadow Maul's considerable 90 damage plus it has the chance to Knock Down and Stun foes. Seems like a worthwhile inclusion to me, but I've never actually used it, so I can't say for sure. If there are better AoE attack options which would compliment the playstyle as well, out there I'm certainly open to them.

I've already got more than 5 LOTG's in my slotted build, so I don't think I can get the benefit of another one. I did take TP as a quicker 'get there from here', though I've found the free prestige powers adequate for 95% of my movement and team teleport on PUG's usually take care of the rest. I probably would have just taken Teleport Target there instead but I wanted a spot for the Blessing of the Zephyr Knock-Back IO, just in case.

You are going to enhance shadow maul with 4-6 slots. I almost always go 6. If you enhance cross punch (in my mind) you are crazy. The damage therefore is not comparable.

You can nudge one of the lotg into hover and slam a kismet or another defense global into a def power always active. Again, getting doible use of a pick by something utilitarian and freeing up one slot. Or pick something else. Leadership etc. or another Soul Mastery power.

In my mind literally anything is better than cross punch. The time to use it and the crap results have no place in modern ROFLSTOMP steamroller teams

Darkir · July 31, 2023

16 hours ago, Captain Fabulous said:

cause this dev team LOVES Blasters, like, a lot

Yeah.....

Without_Pause · July 31, 2023

38 minutes ago, Snarky said:

In my mind literally anything is better than cross punch. The time to use it and the crap results have no place in modern ROFLSTOMP steamroller teams

Spring Attack would like a word. I just wish Shadow Punch was replaced by something like Engulfing Darkness. I loath the animation time of Shadow Maul.

Snarky · August 1, 2023

For the love of all the dark gods...

please get rid of Darkest Night Cros Punch and Kick

Take anything... Like Soul Tentacles, Dark Obliteration, and heck if you HAVE to have another punch Shadow Punch, but I would add Super Jump or another Travel Power.

Without_Pause · August 1, 2023

On 7/30/2023 at 9:06 PM, Story Archer said:

I never see Cross Punch show up in any builds.

There's a reason for that. Take Dark Obliteration instead and call it a day if you want to add AoE. Dark Obliteration also gives you a slot for another -Res proc if you want. You aren't getting that in Cross Punch.

SomeGuy · August 1, 2023

Drop Shadow Maul. It's garbage.

Proc bombing Touch of Fear, slotting Dark Consumption and Soul Drain for damage, and taking Dark Obliteration are going to help IMMENSELY for AOE.

This has no incarnates, is soft cappped, and has perma hasten. Maybe you can get some ideas.

This Villain build was built using Mids Reborn 3.4.6
https://github.com/LoadedCamel/MidsReborn

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Level 50 Technology Brute
Primary Power Set: Dark Melee
Secondary Power Set: Super Reflexes
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leadership
Ancillary Pool: Soul Mastery

Villain Profile:
Level 1: Smite
Level 1: Sprint
------------

(A) Superior Blistering Cold - Accuracy/Damage
(3) Damage Increase IO
(3) Damage Increase IO
(5) Mako's Bite - Chance of Damage(Lethal)
(5) Touch of Death - Chance of Damage(Negative)
(17) Gladiator's Strike - Chance for Smashing Damage

Level 1: Focused Fighting

(A) Red Fortune - Defense/Endurance
(37) Red Fortune - Defense/Endurance/Recharge
(39) Red Fortune - Defense
(39) Shield Wall - +Res (Teleportation), +5% Res (All)

Level 2: Focused Senses

(A) Reactive Defenses - Scaling Resist Damage
(23) Reactive Defenses - Defense
(34) Reactive Defenses - Defense/Endurance
(36) Reactive Defenses - Endurance/RechargeTime
(36) Reactive Defenses - Defense/RechargeTime
(36) Reactive Defenses - Defense/Endurance/RechargeTime

Level 4: Agile

(A) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Increased Global Recharge Speed
(31) Luck of the Gambler - Defense

Level 6: Touch of Fear

(A) Accuracy IO
(7) Glimpse of the Abyss - Chance of Damage(Psionic)
(7) Obliteration - Chance for Smashing Damage
(13) Eradication - Chance for Energy Damage
(15) Armageddon - Chance for Fire Damage
(17) Fury of the Gladiator - Chance for Res Debuff

Level 8: Siphon Life

(A) Superior Brute's Fury - Recharge/Fury Bonus
(9) Superior Brute's Fury - Accuracy/Damage
(9) Superior Brute's Fury - Damage/Recharge
(11) Superior Brute's Fury - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
(11) Superior Brute's Fury - Damage/Endurance/RechargeTime
(13) Gladiator's Strike - Chance for Smashing Damage

Level 10: Practiced Brawler

(A) Endurance Reduction IO

Level 12: Combat Jumping

(A) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Increased Global Recharge Speed
(46) Blessing of the Zephyr - Run Speed, Jump, Flight Speed, Range
(46) Blessing of the Zephyr - Run Speed, Jump, Flight Speed, Range/Endurance
(48) Blessing of the Zephyr - Knockback Reduction (4 points)

Level 14: Hasten

(A) Recharge Reduction IO
(15) Recharge Reduction IO

Level 16: Dodge

(A) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Increased Global Recharge Speed

Level 18: Dark Consumption

(A) Eradication - Chance for Energy Damage
(19) Eradication - Damage
(19) Eradication - Accuracy/Recharge
(21) Eradication - Damage/Recharge
(21) Eradication - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
(23) Eradication - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance/Recharge

Level 20: Evasion

(A) Red Fortune - Defense/Endurance
(37) Red Fortune - Defense/Endurance/Recharge
(37) Red Fortune - Defense

Level 22: Super Jump

(A) Winter's Gift - Slow Resistance (20%)
(50) Blessing of the Zephyr - Run Speed, Jump, Flight Speed, Range
(50) Blessing of the Zephyr - Run Speed, Jump, Flight Speed, Range/Endurance

Level 24: Tough

(A) Unbreakable Guard - +Max HP
(25) Unbreakable Guard - Resistance
(25) Unbreakable Guard - Resistance/Endurance
(31) Unbreakable Guard - Resistance/Endurance/RechargeTime

Level 26: Soul Drain

(A) Armageddon - Damage
(27) Armageddon - Damage/Endurance
(27) Armageddon - Recharge/Accuracy
(29) Armageddon - Damage/Recharge
(29) Armageddon - Damage/Recharge/Accuracy

Level 28: Lucky

(A) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Increased Global Recharge Speed
(31) Luck of the Gambler - Defense

Level 30: Boxing

(A) Superior Blistering Cold - Damage/Endurance/Accuracy/RechargeTime
(50) Superior Blistering Cold - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance

Level 32: Midnight Grasp

(A) Hecatomb - Damage/Endurance
(33) Hecatomb - Damage/Recharge
(33) Hecatomb - Damage/Recharge/Accuracy
(33) Hecatomb - Recharge/Accuracy
(34) Hecatomb - Chance of Damage(Negative)
(34) Gladiator's Strike - Chance for Smashing Damage

Level 35: Quickness

(A) Run Speed IO

Level 38: Weave

(A) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Increased Global Recharge Speed
(39) Red Fortune - Defense
(40) Red Fortune - Defense/Endurance

Level 41: Gloom

(A) Apocalypse - Damage/Recharge/Accuracy
(42) Apocalypse - Damage/Endurance
(42) Apocalypse - Chance of Damage(Negative)
(42) Cloud Senses - Chance for Negative Energy Damage
(43) Gladiator's Javelin - Chance of Damage(Toxic)
(43) Decimation - Chance of Build Up

Level 44: Dark Obliteration

(A) Ragnarok - Damage/Endurance
(45) Ragnarok - Damage
(45) Ragnarok - Damage/Recharge
(45) Ragnarok - Damage/Recharge/Accuracy
(46) Ragnarok - Recharge/Accuracy

Level 47: Maneuvers

(A) Red Fortune - Defense/Endurance
(48) Red Fortune - Defense/Endurance/Recharge
(48) Red Fortune - Defense

Level 49: Assault

(A) Endurance Reduction IO

Level 1: Brawl

(A) Superior Blistering Cold - Recharge/Chance for Hold
(43) Superior Blistering Cold - Damage/Endurance

Level 1: Fury

(A) Run Speed IO

Level 2: Rest

(A) Empty

Level 1: Swift

(A) Run Speed IO

Level 1: Health

(A) Panacea - +Hit Points/Endurance
(40) Numina's Convalesence - +Regeneration/+Recovery

Level 1: Hurdle

(A) Jumping IO

Level 1: Stamina

(A) Performance Shifter - Chance for +End
(40) Power Transfer - Chance to Heal Self

Level 22: Double Jump

Snarky · August 1, 2023

Keep shadow maul. Glorious when surrounded and a justifiably wonderful spot to drop big powerful sets into

Spaghetti Betty · August 4, 2023

Cross Punch is absolutely a fantastic choice, and it's not for AoE.

Cross Punch is fantastic for the slotting opportunities you get from it! One of my big gripes about Dark Melee is how vital it is to get Soul Drain perma, but how difficult it can be to do so without big trades in other areas of the build. Cross Punch can be proc'd out the wazoo with a bunch of helpful stuff like an FF Proc and a Chance for -Res and can put out damage comparable to Smite. This makes it a great addition to your rotation if you can fit it in.

Also, Shadow Maul is a great power! I don't understand the hate for it.

Without_Pause · August 4, 2023

12 hours ago, Spaghetti Betty said:

Also, Shadow Maul is a great power! I don't understand the hate for it.

It has a long history of a less than desirable animation time. It has gotten better, but it still isn't great. I'm aware the damage fits for the animation time, and the size of the cone was improved. The closest thing I use to it is Spin, but Spin is known for being overly good and more so on a Scrapper. It is also a PBAoE and requires no lining up.

Sanguinesun · August 6, 2023

On 8/4/2023 at 9:44 AM, Spaghetti Betty said:

Cross Punch is absolutely a fantastic choice, and it's not for AoE.

Cross Punch is fantastic for the slotting opportunities you get from it! One of my big gripes about Dark Melee is how vital it is to get Soul Drain perma, but how difficult it can be to do so without big trades in other areas of the build. Cross Punch can be proc'd out the wazoo with a bunch of helpful stuff like an FF Proc and a Chance for -Res and can put out damage comparable to Smite. This makes it a great addition to your rotation if you can fit it in.

Also, Shadow Maul is a great power! I don't understand the hate for it.

Some things on this:

Cross punch:

Cross punch, even if you take kick and boxing, will not have the base damage comparable to smite. Its much less. This makes sense given one is a single target and cp is a cone....
Cross punch does give a short global +10% to hit and +10% recharge for a short duration if it successfully hits a target. This is due to the synergy with boxing/kick
Cross punch yes can take the force feedback proc giving a chance for a +100% to recharge bonus globally also. Thus with point 2, that's a +110% bonus to recharge.
Cross punch's activation is 1.67s
Cross punch's cone arc is 50 degrees
Cross punch gives a chance for a knockdown and a stun.
Cross punch cannot take ATO sets.
Cross punch gives your inherent brawl a -10% recovery and -10% regeneration on hit. (Brawl also gets a -10% recharge and -10% to hit due to boxing/kick(thus it has a higher -tohit % than shadow maul)... but most never use brawl anyway due to its low damage output nor use it for muling sets either necessarily.... just was worth mentioning on the synergies point).
Cross punch is smashing damage, delivered at the end of the 1.67s activation of the power, and one of the higher resisted damage types in the game.
Cross punch requires you to take multiple abilities in the Fighting power pool in order to choose/use it and is unable to be taken until a minimum of level 14. For some builds, this may not be practical.
Cross punch's base endurance cost is 10.66

Shadow maul:

Shadow maul has a higher base damage than CP.... even if you take cp with the boxing/kick synergy.
Shadow maul has a cone of 120 degrees. That's more than double the arc/reach of cross punch.
Shadow maul does a 5.63% -tohit debuff in line with dark's general focus of -tohit of course.
Shadow maul has a 2.35-2.37s activation time(depending on whether you're looking at mids or in game base info respectively). Tied with soul drain in the set for the longest activation power in the set.
Shadow maul is half a smashing and half negative energy damage ability delivered in ticks over 2 seconds of the 2.37 seconds of its activation. According to an older thread from years ago, dark energy damage type is one of the lesser damage types to be resisted. However smashing component is one of the more common resisted types.
Shadow maul can be taken of course at any time from level 2 in the dark melee set.
Shadow maul can accept ATO sets.
Shadow maul's base endurance cost is 11.02

Observations then with comparisons of the two powers:

If your needs are for more base raw damage, Shadow maul is going to deliver more. However, if you're looking at damage in an attack rotation, cross punch is going to allow a damage rotation (in theory) to be higher per target. This is due to the potential for an additional +110% recharge allowing other abilities(including cp) to recharge faster delivering more damage for the same amount of time. The only caveat is that in practice there is a potential for Shadow maul to actually --hit-- more targets due to its much, much, wider cone.

In terms of damage mitigation against the player, cross punch is far superior to shadow maul due to a higher -to hit, knockdown, and stun, There aren't many attack powers in the game that apply that combination of damage mitigation (arguably, it may be the only one as a very skimming look at power's abilities, I couldn't find one that did). Arguably too cross punch allowing for +110% potential recharge can also be considered a damage mitigation too because if you're hitting more/faster and thus doing more damage, you're downing mobs potentially faster to prevent incurring damage.... but that too is also dependent on other variables.

With Shadow maul, some people may find the 2.67s activation to be an activation lock in (ie cant do anything while locked into the long activation animation of the attack). Anyone who has done the lowbie DFB and activated Shadow maul just as a green pool drops on you from the end boss blobs knowns how the pain of that for example. This is a minor point but something that may be of consideration for some.

For player's chasing +recharge potential, Cross punch is going to be attractive as pointed out already. Dark melee lacks any powers that help in improving recharge outside of set bonuses from enhancement sets (ie no dark melee powers with knockdown/knockback that can accept the FF +100% recharge proc).

Cross punch's best case scenario (ie taking boxing+kick), for some builds is a lot of power choice making that as not necessarily being practical or optimal for some builds when other powers that output more damage(and or procs/slot choices) can be considered.

In conclusion.....

Making a choice between either is really going to boil down to the player because (as so often is the case with this game intentionally to prevent pigeon holing cookie cutter "bests") there are just too many variables to factor in conjunction with each individual player. Anecdotally, I can say that I rarely take CP on most AT's builds but I can see valid considerations for taking cross punch over that of shadow maul when considering dark melee.. OR simply skipping both in favor of patron pool options (be it for more single target or more aoe or other variables). Again, all depends.

Main thing then is just having folks aware of the variables to improve making decisions on what to take of course.

Edited August 7, 2023 by Sanguinesun

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