Is there a Ranking for Defender Blast Sets?

[00Troy00]

Even better if there are explanations for why a given set is ranked where it is. 

[Onlyasandwich]

@Galaxy Brain and others have broken them down for other AT's, but I'm not finding a handy up to date ranking. 

 

All blast sets are at least competent, so in my mind theme is always first, so pick what you think is fun!

 

That being said, my own super loose first thoughts:

 

Really awesome stand-outs:

 

• Ice Blast. Great DPA, highly proccable, allowing Defenders to reach stronger damage numbers. One of the best nukes around. Holds and slows help you protect yourself and others.
• Fire Blast. Still good here for the same reasons Blasters love it. King of damage due to high DPA attacks both ST and aoe. No utility to speak of.

 

Won't disappoint:

• Dark Blast. Loads of utility with some good proc opportunities. Cones are not ideal for every primary's preferred positioning, and lacks some up front punch. However, nothing defends better while providing good damage over time.
• Sonic. Debuff city! Stack that -res and go to town solo or on a team. aoe sleep makes a safe soloer, though pretty mediocre aoe damage.

 

I could break this down in super granular ranked detail set by set, but the above are in my view those that are worth calling special attention to. Others have their own special tricks and strengths of course, and my own characters use any and all according to theme. Many would put water blast as a stand-out, but I find myself a bit disappointed by it. The aoe is above average, but ST feels like a noodle and the set as a whole just doesn't feel very punchy. The little heal is nice for sets otherwise lacking, but the Defender ATO covers that just fine for me even without.

 

Without putting them in any particular order, my impressions of the others:

• Archery. Fun nuke, smooth aoe chain. Lethal damage can be rough at times, and ST chain relies on Blazing arrow, which is pretty slow.
• Assault Rifle. Same lethal challenges here, though some diversity from Ignite and flamethrower. Every time I make this on a Defender I just wish I were playing my AR blaster, though. Above average aoe.
• Beam Rifle. The spread mechanic is a bit of fun, and the Nuke is a blast. Overall a great set that I would place higher than many, but doesn't stand out quite to the degree of the top performers.
• Dual Pistols. Actually one of my favorite sets! Relies heavily on procs to make up damage. Good for sets that like being in your face.
• Electrical Blast. Nothing bad to say these days! A great set that doesn't care if you are up close or far away. Lacks a third tier blast, but Tesla Cage and Voltaic make up for this to a degree. The chain mechanic is sort of incidental.
• Energy blast. Looks great, feels good to play, great with heavy FFback abuse. 
• Psychic blast. Pretty okay. The wub wub projectiles are a bit slow and it has some clunky animations. Nuke feels great, and some sort of useful debuffs and soft controls.
• Radiation blast. Highly proccable, great "in your face" set. Pretty solid secondary effect. This used to be defender's best comparison to fire blast before proliferation, though its animations aren't approaching Fire's superior DPA.
• Seismic blast. Meteor is super fun! Some people don't like to wait for it to fall. Otherwise good DPA, strong theme, with a nice dose of soft control.
• Storm Blast. Demands your attention to really get any advantage from its special mechanic. If not taking advantage, damage is a bit soft. Could be workable on a less "busy" primary. Pretty end intensive with satisfying visuals. Though it takes setup, surprisingly good mitigation tools.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 4, 2023 by Onlyasandwich

[Without_Pause]

Water is outright fantastic.

[Uun]

This was done for blasters, but should mostly hold true for defenders (dark and psychic have different powers on blasters).

 

[00Troy00]

Thank you both!

[JasperStone]

I ran a Poison/ Energy Blast

Surprisingly good.

The knockback to knockdown pairs well with the debuffs and holds. 

[Without_Pause]

The problem with the Blasters listing is it merely taking into account personal ST damage. Case in point, they are using Dehydrate as part of its ST attack chain. Meanwhile the set has ample amounts of AoE, KD, the ability to proc a lot, and the previously mentioned Dehydrate as a way to heal. Sonic for the team factor in terms of damage should rank higher. 

[00Troy00]

2 hours ago, JasperStone said:

I ran a Poison/ Energy Blast

Surprisingly good.

The knockback to knockdown pairs well with the debuffs and holds. 

We're you able to out an AV on his ass?

[Hjarki]

Defenders are different in some key ways:

• Procs are better than damage. Defenders are one of the only AT for which the damage scale is so low that slotting a 3.5 ppm proc will yield more damage than a purple Damage enhancement. This gives a significant advantage to sets that can deeply slot procs over those that cannot.
• Certain primary abilities tend to be more potent than your ST rotation. A good first pass approximation of the value of -regen on an AV/GM (which is really what we're mainly talking about with ST damage) is that you get 1 implied dps for every 10% -regen. So Benumb can be approximated as generating 50 dps - which is about what a Defender's entire ST damage with conventional slotting would do.
• Defenders may or may not have fillers for their rotation. Kinetics is notorious for how 'busy' it is. The upshot of this is that you lose significant parts of your ST rotation due to the need to be activating powers in primary. On the other hand, a primary like Thermal rarely does much besides nuke in most fights.

In general, you shouldn't approach your Blast set in terms of "how can I do the mostest damage?" because, well, you can't. You can certainly optimize the damage you deal but you'll never be competitive with other AT. Rather, you should be thinking about how the Blast set supports your secondary and how it supports the team.

[Onlyasandwich]

12 hours ago, Without_Pause said:

Water is outright fantastic.

 

I agree that it is actually pretty great! I just don't find the trade-off in ST damage to be worth it for my own playstyle, and the effects don't feel very impactful. I definitely acknowledge that it is a strong set.

[Without_Pause]

28 minutes ago, Hjarki said:

In general, you shouldn't approach your Blast set in terms of "how can I do the mostest damage?" because, well, you can't. You can certainly optimize the damage you deal but you'll never be competitive with other AT. Rather, you should be thinking about how the Blast set supports your secondary and how it supports the team.

Facts. I was on a team with my TA/ice and so much of my attacking was the rain and nuke with some token ST attacks. 

[Uun]

2 hours ago, 00Troy00 said:

We're you able to out an AV on his ass?

https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Purple_Triangles

[00Troy00]

5 hours ago, Hjarki said:

Defenders are different in some key ways:

• Procs are better than damage. Defenders are one of the only AT for which the damage scale is so low that slotting a 3.5 ppm proc will yield more damage than a purple Damage enhancement. This gives a significant advantage to sets that can deeply slot procs over those that cannot.
• Certain primary abilities tend to be more potent than your ST rotation. A good first pass approximation of the value of -regen on an AV/GM (which is really what we're mainly talking about with ST damage) is that you get 1 implied dps for every 10% -regen. So Benumb can be approximated as generating 50 dps - which is about what a Defender's entire ST damage with conventional slotting would do.
• Defenders may or may not have fillers for their rotation. Kinetics is notorious for how 'busy' it is. The upshot of this is that you lose significant parts of your ST rotation due to the need to be activating powers in primary. On the other hand, a primary like Thermal rarely does much besides nuke in most fights.

In general, you shouldn't approach your Blast set in terms of "how can I do the mostest damage?" because, well, you can't. You can certainly optimize the damage you deal but you'll never be competitive with other AT. Rather, you should be thinking about how the Blast set supports your secondary and how it supports the team.

Thanks for such an articulate reply!

 

I am actually working on. Kin/Ice now, and this is thr philosophy I want to take. Do you by chance have a build that can optimally accomplish this?

[Hjarki]

56 minutes ago, 00Troy00 said:

I am actually working on. Kin/Ice now, and this is thr philosophy I want to take. Do you by chance have a build that can optimally accomplish this?

I could certainly make one - but it wouldn't be a fully tested build but more of a proof-of-concept build. I know you can cap S/L/E/R/A on such a build, especially given how you can slot your attacks sub-optimally (using sets like Ice Mistral's Torment and Cloud Senses).

[Without_Pause]

I did a terribly quick run through of the blast sets. Note, I have yet to play Seismic or Storm, so YMMV. I essentially looked at 5 areas and rated a set 1-3 based on how well they did at that aspect.

 

The areas are:

ST Damage: Can one skip on of the T1 or T2 attacks and feel like they have a decent attack chain.

AoE: Do they have 2 AoEs without a nuke.

Secondary Effect: Does it have one, is it meaningful, can it lead to procs?

Control: What meaningful aspects of control does it bring?

Damage type: S/L get a 1. Dark and Psy get a 3, although I fully accept just how much blow back I can get for saying Psy is a 3. Both seem to fall into the category of hardly resisted, or incredibly resisted. I bumped Psy down a tier anyway. Everything else is a 2.

  

By all means, I know people will argue specific numbers so I will merely focus on the grouping of the sets and why they land where they do. Hell, I repeatedly admit I changed sets from one tier to another. I won't claim to sets being ranked within their tiers. 

 

Tier 1

 

Assault Rile: The pro for this set is that it does well in AoE. The downside is pretty much everything else. While KB is okay in the land of IOs, the fact that all of its AoE do it means someone is slotting a lot of that proc in order to keep things contained. Defenders to a default like mobs packed together for debuffs. Assault Rifle actively goes against that. In the end, you use IOs to fix the issues of AR versus improving it.

 

Archery: It has better ST damage and there isn't the KB issue outside of one power. The nuke rotates fast, but that's about it. I don't think lighting your own Oil Slick Arrow is going to really bump it since that's a single instance of why Archery works. 

 

Tier 2

 

Energy: This honestly feels like it should be higher because it just feels like it is the poster child of being a middle ground set versus being higher. It's just an incredibly average set which needs some IOs to contain it. Still the best looking nuke.

 

Dual Pistols: I'm likely under valuing this as I know people like to use this set with proc heavy builds. In all honestly, its base damage type is what holds it back from being higher.

 

Seismic: My biggest complaint is that any Earth/Stone type sets are great at control as where this deals a lot with -Fly which is way less exciting and not something you can IO into.

 

Storm: Again, I'm pleading ignorance here, but I find it telling there are four powers which are labeled as being better for Corrs.

 

Tier 3

 

Electric: I had this in a tier lower even after the rework. I knew the backlash would be coming. It likely still will. It's hard to factor in how much the pets adds, but also needing a pet isn't really helping one's case. Short Circuit requires the Defender into melee and with a long animation time. It's still rather average overall with a great secondary effect even if that aspect is questioned just how it really impacts things. The damage boost is nice and needed. Old school Electric cakewalks into Tier 2.

 

Dark: The ST damage isn't great, but when you factor in how much a heal comes in handy with sets which don't have one, it is a bit more excusable. It's a nice rounded set which can compliment other sets while ultimately not being that much of a 'Wow' factor with so much of the damage being DoT based.

 

Sonic: And coming in with arguably the best secondary effect even though you can't slot IOs for it. AoE is light, but control is high and it makes it super easy to solo. This is one I can see being higher. Dirty hack, one can slot the Call of the Sandman: Chance to Heal Self in Siren's Song. Fun fact, I had a Rad/sonic on Live and even just using common IOs it lead me to soloing defenders.

 

Water: Another set I bumped despite its score. It's just too damn useful overall and the heal helps fill in similar to Dark. I have a Water Blaster at 50. I need to make a build for it. Maybe after I get a better idea of Water it will move higher. I really like the set despite the numbers. 

 

Psychic: This might be the one set I debate more than anything because this was tier 4, and I'm like, 'Is this better than certain others?' Maybe some day. I've also debated a number of times when trying to decide on making a character or not and just using a different and higher ranked set instead. There is still a lot to like here.

 

Tier 4

 

Beam: I only briefly have played it, but it very much is one of the sets where when it is on, it feels incredibly good, and then you have to wait for Disintegration to kick in again. Tons of control and KD versus KB. AoE is deceptive since Disintegration adds to it even when using ST attacks. Another which was ranked lower, but I think it as a harder target killer is worth mentioning. I need to reroll my low level Time/beam over to my main account, or maybe try a different primary as I have 4 other Time characters already.

 

Rad: It's control and damage type are middle ground, and that's about it for negatives. Sure, -Def isn't as important in end game fights, but you can still proc for it and it still makes low level gaming that much easier. In all honestly I hardly ever think to roll a /rad defender even if it was what I used on my first hero on Live. But yeah, I am continuing to invest in my Time/rad. I played it last night, and I was like, 'This feels good.' Still surprised I got the name Irradikate.

 

Fire: No, drugs and alcohol were not involved, but yes, I had this in Tier 3. At some point, you can't overthink things. Fire's control is Rain of Fire and things being dead. You can't slot for its secondary effect, but said secondary effect is better than a proc anyway. Fire is simply Fire and Moar Fire, and that is enough. It's basically a Blaster and Corr set given to Defenders. So yes, for Defenders it is 'Tier 3,' but again, let's not overthink things.

 

Ice: Ice Storm and Blizzard are DoT heavy, and that's about the only negative I have. Ice has been historically stupid good at damage and utility for a blast set while Ice Control languishes at damage for reasons I have no idea why. Oddly enough, Ice is one of the more lightly resisted sets. Also, this is the set which simply outclasses Psychic for me. You can't be Tier 4 if someone already has your seat.

[nihilii]

I like Onlyasandwich's list. Although subjectively, I would rank Sonic as S-tier, *above* Fire Blast and Ice Blast.

It has great ST damage, great AoE damage, great soft control baked in those attacks, great -RES debuffing also baked in those attacks. It's basically on par with a good blast set before you consider the -RES debuffs. Then the -RES debuffs push your numbers further up.

Siren's Song is slept on since the buffing. Hits like a truck, and an AoE sleep on command as secondary effect to a straight damage power gives you fantastic optionality. If you get in trouble while soloing, at any moment you can turn all your enemies save for bosses into statues. Could even go psi epic should you want boss-level AoE sleep, Dominate is a great power to grab anyway.

Screech is much of the same, turning former mez power into damage power while retaining mez ability is fantastic. Your non-boss direct target will typically be stunned. Once again, you can find synergy through epics with Dark Mastery (Oppressive Gloom) and permastun bosses in melee range as a passive effect of your normal attack chain.

 

nuSonic is a fantastic all-rounder. Flaws, if anything, are cones requiring you to position yourself, and no standout power. Rather, you want to have and to use all 8 (thank god we get to skip tier1 secondaries now). Which also eats a lot of animation time. In that regard very active primaries would likely get more mileage out of Fire or Ice.

[nihilii]

On 8/11/2023 at 10:27 PM, Without_Pause said:

By all means, I know people will argue specific numbers so I will merely focus on the grouping of the sets and why they land where they do.

Tangentially, I don't know if it's just me (I see the Confused eyes from DreadShinobi...), but your formatting took me aback. I suppose it can make sense to rate tier1 lowest and increment from there; but in a tier list my brain expects to see the best first and the worst latest, so combined altogether, it seemed like you were saying Assault Rifle and Archery were top of the class, at first!

[honoroit]

rly repends loads on primary.

 

kin >> fire/elec/sonic/dp/seismic/rad (take combat teleport for fulcrum placement)

dark >> dark (they cannot hit)

ea >> elec/sonic/dp

nature >> sonic / seismic

sonic >> fire?

ff >> f it, energy / seismic

empath >> sonic/fire/storm/psi

pain >> psi/sonic/fire/psi

traps >> no, wont condone

trick arrow >> no, wont condone

poison >> rad

time >> fire/sonic/elec

cold dom >> sonic/ice/fire

rad em >> sonic/fire

thermal >> fire

storm >> energy/storm/elec

 

thats just what springs to my mind, you cant go wring with:

- sonic

- fire

- elec (if you can double end drain)

- seismic (mitigation and good dmg)

- dark (if dark, they rly rly cant hit)

 

Edited August 21, 2023 by honoroit
kin

[Without_Pause]

Not sure what won't condone is implying as TA allow is rather solid. Also, the pairings don't make a lot of sense. Kin/rad not being a pairing is quite the omission. 

[honoroit]

1 hour ago, Without_Pause said:

Not sure what won't condone is implying as TA allow is rather solid. Also, the pairings don't make a lot of sense. Kin/rad not being a pairing is quite the omission. 

 

kin/rad (many pbaoe) is a solid one, and works fulcrum.

 

i just dont like ta on defender.

[Zect]

You cannot rank fender blast sets, or even place them on a tier list, because that implies a 1-dimensional axis of performance (e.g. DPS rankings), wheras fenders pick their 2ndaries for various reasons.

 

Fender blast sets are best understood as 3 interlocking circles on a venn diagram:

• The debuffers - sets such as /elec and /sonic which construct build strategies around the 2ndary effect
• The procbombers - sets such as DP and water who synergize well with the PPM mechanic
• The blasters - sets chosen for the properties of the attacks themselves (DPA, damtype, area, radius, etc.) such as fire which has a good damtype and still does decent DPA even with fender scalars, or psi which is strong in hardmode against psi-vulnerable EB's such as ITF beasts and aeon brickernauts.

For example, DP is a strong procbomber set; however, unusually it offers a means of getting -dmg and has an attack that does -res (intersection with the debuffers). An kin/elec aiming to floor AV endurance completely (sadly nerfed in i27p3) and a kin/DP aiming to procbomb while leveraging -dmg against AV's and tough targets are completely different beasts.

 

I know that some only want others to tell them which cliff the lemmings are jumping off so they can join in, but such an approach works poorly with support toons. Careful consideration of your build goals, design priorities and target content are important to produce the fender you want to play; otherwise, all you're likely to get is some forumite foisting their personal biases on you.

Edited August 24, 2023 by Zect

[Without_Pause]

34 minutes ago, Zect said:

You cannot rank fender blast sets, or even place them on a tier list, because that implies a 1-dimensional axis of performance (e.g. DPS rankings), wheras fenders pick their 2ndaries for various reasons.

I put them into a tier list and did so not based on DPS since that's a terrible measure of a sets worth. It isn't rocket science to figure out that AR is clearly not in the same class as Ice while not talking about DPS. About the only primary which wouldn't mind being paired with AR is FF. Any player picking a secondary wouldn't think twice about Ice working out regardless of their primary.