Revamp to other pets

[Xandyr]

 Ot sure if anyone knows, or is willing to say, but I'm curious if the Devs are planning a revamp of the other pets? We got revamped Mercs, Necro, Bots, and Ninjas. But what about the others? 

  I'd like to see Beasts' AI improved (at the very least). 

 

Anyone know if anything else is in the works? And if so, what would be on your wish list?

 

-X 

[Raikao]

So far the theme seems to be making primary attacks better, each one giving something useful. Now in Robots case they did it by taking something away, namely the -recharge from the Assault Bot, but overall it's a buff, since you don't need to use KB->KD on every tier of pet anymore. Mercs got ranged damage and a better serum, ninja got crit, necro got extra summons (and a way better Soul Extraction). I'm even starting to like the maintenance drone. 

 

So the focus seems to be better primary attacks and QoL mostly. I can spitball a bit.

 

Beasts: Not the greatest. SO adjusting skills is a good start, give them slightly more dmg, or better slotting opportunities. Probably just better skill use and/or damage.

I could see some QoL in terms of movespeed for Beasts (maybe through Fortify Pack), so you don't feel "forced" to take /Kinetics. The primaries already have a function as well with building stacks for Fortify Pack. One thing that feels a bit bad is loosing the +damage from stacks whenever you do use the Fortify Pack power. The pets already build stacks for you, so maybe the primary attacks could add a different buff stack. Let's call it "Synergy" for now. When you use Fortify Pack you loose your pack tactics stacks but keep a few stacks based on your Synergy stacks. So basically you would use your primary attacks to keep some of your pack tactics stacks whenever you use Fortify Pack. Think that would be nice QoL and very thematic, with you fighting "with your pack". Every type of pet has their own thing they're good at. I think beasts should be good at shrugging of control effects. You need them in melee after all, so good protection against CC effects would be nice (bit like zombies but on crack. Wolves should shred through mobs).

 

Demons/Thugs: I'm at a loss there. But I haven't played either that much and just because they're top tier doesn't mean a bit of QoL would be bad. Just don't know where to start.

 

 

Edited August 14, 2023 by Raikao

[Hedgefund]

Before this last revamp conventional wisdom was that MM pets had an A tier of Bots, Thugs and Demons.  Then there was everything else.  Actual DPS testing showed that Bots weren't really deserving of being A-tier (no supporting links, sorry), so my non-insider thinking is that only Beasts is even a possibility for a future pass.

 

Having re-played, from the ground up, everything that had a recent revamp but Robots, I have to give a thumbs up to these changes.  I'm still incarnating a Ninjas MM and loving the ride.  I've t4d a Merc.  Both of those were in my "been there/done that" category and I had no intention of ever playing those again but now I'm up for any of them.  My new Necro just hit 40, so I still have a lot of time to get to know it better.   I think there's pretty good parity among the primaries now.

Edited August 14, 2023 by Hedgefund

[Neiska]

I think they wanted to make the MM primaries more interactive/personal attacks more impactful, but not in regards to damage. I have played the new Mercs, Necro, and Robots. The Mercs and Necro were definitely made better, but to me the Robots got a lateral demotion. My new Robot Farm team takes about 150-180 seconds longer than it used to, despite the "DPS being made better." The DPS isn't so loaded on the T3 anymore, but to some of us that wasn't a bad thing either. But I digress.

 

Honestly if they wanted to make the MM sets more equal giving each primary a mule power would go a long way to do that. Most MM sets have a "slot tax" for pet auras, and the sets for those auras are far from optimal. So if you use the slot for the set bonuses you are kind of shooting yourself in the foot. They could make the pet Enhancements better too, or remove the Auras entirely and bake them into pet stats or upgrade powers.

 

As far as Beasts specifically, I am not a fan. They don't have a full attack chain so can get stuck and pause a moment, and if the mob is fleeing then its a chase and can pile into the next group of mobs, often before you are ready. I also wish the wiki had a more complete power listing for beasts like they do for the other sets, it could show ways to improve proc-slotting.

[Neiska]

6 minutes ago, Hedgefund said:

 Actual DPS testing showed that Bots weren't really deserving of being A-tier (no supporting links, sorry), so my non-insider thinking is that only Beasts is even a possibility for a future pass.

 

Robots had the best AOE and inherent -regen. They had weak ST though (and still do), but the biggest complaint was how back-loaded the set was. The T3 pet did roughly 80% of your total net damage, which made doing things like Ouro or side-kicking down a pain. But there were also ways to take advantage of that was well. Having so much damage on one pet made ST buffs like Forge much more useful, and it was easier to drop a red inspiration onto your big T3 and boost your damage as well. It was also a mixed blessing when it came to teams, as you could get by with just your T3 pet and it wouldn't impact you very much. But now you can't really do that anymore and have to bring all the pets, the same as every other MM set.

[Raikao]

18 hours ago, Neiska said:

 

Robots had the best AOE and inherent -regen. They had weak ST though (and still do), but the biggest complaint was how back-loaded the set was. The T3 pet did roughly 80% of your total net damage, which made doing things like Ouro or side-kicking down a pain. But there were also ways to take advantage of that was well. Having so much damage on one pet made ST buffs like Forge much more useful, and it was easier to drop a red inspiration onto your big T3 and boost your damage as well. It was also a mixed blessing when it came to teams, as you could get by with just your T3 pet and it wouldn't impact you very much. But now you can't really do that anymore and have to bring all the pets, the same as every other MM set.

 

I don't know about ST damage or pylon times but they do feel good to play. I like having the T1 and T2 be a bit more useful. Putting Forge/TemporalSelection on the T3 still feels impactful and useful to me, since he does the big dick AoE missiles and burn patches still.

 

Part of me hates taking -regen away from the bot and putting it on the attacks, but I also like it, because you can still skip the attacks if you run a secondary with -regen like traps or cold. And if you don't, you can take 1-3 attacks to get some -regen. I like how this gives a reason to use the attacks or not use the attacks depending on your secondary and how it impacts building the MM.

 

For Beasts, I think having them be all melee is still ok. Every set should have its own flavor. Combining them with -slow, knockdown or Immobilize from your secondary/epic pool to me feels the same as figuring out if you need -regen on Robots. It's a puzzle to solve when making a build.

 

I mostly think Fortify Pack should be changed. The loss of stacks and 60 second lockout just makes me not want to use the power at all and only mule LotG, ShieldWall, etc. on it and never press the button. Making sure I get enough defense and heal elsewhere.

 

My suggestion would be to remove the lockout OR:

make the primary attacks give 3 stacks of a new buff. For every stack of this buff you keep one PackMentality stack when using FortifyPack. So if you use all 3 attacks you keep 9 stacks of PackMentality when you use FortifyPack.

 

Adding mez protection for your pets on FortifyPack would also be nice. Make them be relentless pursuers basically, who don't flinch easily.

 

A part of me agrees that sets with an additional pet power are a lot better for slotting, but I'm not keen on just making every set have Gang War. On Robots it's not an issue, mostly because you can't slot procs as much and with the right secondary you get their positional Defense to 45+ and don't need to slot AoE-Defense aura. But that also constricts the options you have for secondary.

 

I think the different primaries can be balanced around having or not having an extra pet aura slot power. I'd prefer that over just making them all the same.

 

Edit: After tinkering with it, I think replacing Fortify Pack with a pet power for mule slots is neccessary. You want Lotg/Def slotted on the Lions and the Dire Wolf take a lot of different procs, with the slow procs (smashing+cold) probably being the best, most of his attacks have -speed.

 

I have a full build ready that I'm happy with, but without a rework so it has the same slotting in the upgrade powers and a mule power I can't justify playing it really. It's just so wonky right now. So I'll wait until it gets a patch. I have enough Robots/Necro/Ninja/Merc stuff to check out in the meantime.

 

 

Edited August 15, 2023 by Raikao

[StrikerFox]

Not a lot. Like the i27.5 update, pet buffs moved to the upgrades. I would like to see Brawl disappear from the Arsonist's attacks. Give Beasts a pounce attack, similar to Spring Attack/Savage Leap. Just something to help them chase down runners. I'd like to see the hellfire from Hell on Earth spit out faster. One every 10s just feels really slow.

[Raikao]

3 hours ago, StrikerFox said:

Not a lot. Like the i27.5 update, pet buffs moved to the upgrades. I would like to see Brawl disappear from the Arsonist's attacks. Give Beasts a pounce attack, similar to Spring Attack/Savage Leap. Just something to help them chase down runners. I'd like to see the hellfire from Hell on Earth spit out faster. One every 10s just feels really slow.

 

Oh god yes if that makes the arsonist less suicidal I'm all for it.

[tidge]

On 8/14/2023 at 11:20 AM, Neiska said:

 

Robots had the best AOE and inherent -regen. They had weak ST though (and still do), but the biggest complaint was how back-loaded the set was. The T3 pet did roughly 80% of your total net damage, which made doing things like Ouro or side-kicking down a pain. But there were also ways to take advantage of that was well. Having so much damage on one pet made ST buffs like Forge much more useful, and it was easier to drop a red inspiration onto your big T3 and boost your damage as well. It was also a mixed blessing when it came to teams, as you could get by with just your T3 pet and it wouldn't impact you very much. But now you can't really do that anymore and have to bring all the pets, the same as every other MM set.

 

I have no disagreement with the facts as explained, but I do disagree with the assessment (bolded above) that a MM with ONLY an Assault Bot was effective (prior to recent updates). [I have no real disagreement about the caveat of only using the most survivable Robot on Teams, except that MMs Tank better with all henchmen.] On my Robots/Traps MM, my "one big robot" build was painfully slow solo. As noted, this is primarily because the Robots excel at AoE and DoT... with all the henchmen out during combat, it is less obvious (at least to me) all the DoT and AoE that is accumulating on an average (large) spawn... but with only the big guy, it was pretty clear just how hard it was to take out even lone bosses.

 

I haven't played as much with my revamped "one big robot" build... mostly because the revamped standard build has been so much fun.

 

One of the recent Homecoming changes that have helped all MMs: being able to take the higher-tier powers earlier in a build lets MMs have a better spread of henchmen across more content. Theoden's SSA1 arc now allows solo MMs to finish in roughly the same time as other ATs... still slower, but times are not a factor-of-two difference.

 

[Neiska]

1 hour ago, tidge said:

 

I have no disagreement with the facts as explained, but I do disagree with the assessment (bolded above) that a MM with ONLY an Assault Bot was effective (prior to recent updates). [I have no real disagreement about the caveat of only using the most survivable Robot on Teams, except that MMs Tank better with all henchmen.] On my Robots/Traps MM, my "one big robot" build was painfully slow solo. As noted, this is primarily because the Robots excel at AoE and DoT... with all the henchmen out during combat, it is less obvious (at least to me) all the DoT and AoE that is accumulating on an average (large) spawn... but with only the big guy, it was pretty clear just how hard it was to take out even lone bosses.

 

I haven't played as much with my revamped "one big robot" build... mostly because the revamped standard build has been so much fun.

 

One of the recent Homecoming changes that have helped all MMs: being able to take the higher-tier powers earlier in a build lets MMs have a better spread of henchmen across more content. Theoden's SSA1 arc now allows solo MMs to finish in roughly the same time as other ATs... still slower, but times are not a factor-of-two difference.

 

 

Perhaps I should further elaborate my point. I mentioned that on "teams" you could use just a T3 pet and it wouldn't severely impact you, as most MMs on teams take the role of support or debuffer rather than DPS. The additional sub-par DPS from having the other pets often wasn't worth it. Now alone, I do agree you should use all your pets in nearly all circumstances. I have heard of "1 big robot" setups but I doubt it would be efficient.

 

Overall I like the MM primary updates, only the Robotics do I dislike. To me they took what made the set unique and fun, with different ways to use and made it like the other sets, as with the lateral move of the -regen. They say the DPS was improved, but in all of my personal tests its been worse. Every test I did from before/after is over 2 minutes difference, and not a single test were the new robots "faster." So I suspect what they really mean is the T1 and T2 pets damage was improved, but the T3 pet was reduced or changed. Not that I expect them to make any reversions or updates to Robotics again anytime in the near future. 

[tidge]

31 minutes ago, Neiska said:

Overall I like the MM primary updates, only the Robotics do I dislike. To me they took what made the set unique and fun, with different ways to use and made it like the other sets, as with the lateral move of the -regen. They say the DPS was improved, but in all of my personal tests its been worse. Every test I did from before/after is over 2 minutes difference, and not a single test were the new robots "faster." So I suspect what they really mean is the T1 and T2 pets damage was improved, but the T3 pet was reduced or changed. Not that I expect them to make any reversions or updates to Robotics again anytime in the near future. 

 

I think I've noticed (corner?) cases where the performance of Robotics (/Traps) has improved, and some where it is worse. I can't be sure, as I had mostly mothballed by Homecoming Day 0 MM for a year or more until the more recent changes. I also had leveraged the MM primary attacks, so I didn't have to radically change my playstyle. What follows is purely anecdotal.

 

The area where performance is worse is in solo play against PI/Eden/Abyss Giant Monsters. My guess is that this is because previously the -Regen from 6 henchmen was doing a LOT of heavy lifting against these big sacks of HP. I don't regularly tackle enough different content to see this, except that I feel like high-level zone's Event GMs also take slightly longer to solo, whereas low-level zone event GMs (e.g. Winter Lord) have roughly the same (solo) defeat times.

 

The improvement I see is against:

• Low level zone GMs are defeated in shorter times (defeat times are faster, presumably because -Regen only from the MM is "enough")
• Even-level x8 instanced missions are cleared faster (presumably because of increased damage, and not needing to slot KB->KD)

Fore example: I don't recall being able to reliably defeat the Grandville Arachnos Flier at a single landing site (with only Robotic henchmen) prior to the recent changes. Since the update, I can be reasonably "late" to a landing site and still have a 50-50 chance to defeat it before it takes off with its shields up. I feel like noting: even with the longest path between landing sites (is it Beta 1 -> Beta 2?) that allows the flier to nearly completely regenerate, the Robots can eliminate the flier at the next site.

 

Also complicating things for me:  RNG provides wide swings in defeat times against certain GMs (notably Jurassik).

[Neiska]

16 minutes ago, tidge said:

 

I think I've noticed (corner?) cases where the performance of Robotics (/Traps) has improved, and some where it is worse. I can't be sure, as I had mostly mothballed by Homecoming Day 0 MM for a year or more until the more recent changes. I also had leveraged the MM primary attacks, so I didn't have to radically change my playstyle. What follows is purely anecdotal.

 

The area where performance is worse is in solo play against PI/Eden/Abyss Giant Monsters. My guess is that this is because previously the -Regen from 6 henchmen was doing a LOT of heavy lifting against these big sacks of HP. I don't regularly tackle enough different content to see this, except that I feel like high-level zone's Event GMs also take slightly longer to solo, whereas low-level zone event GMs (e.g. Winter Lord) have roughly the same (solo) defeat times.

 

The improvement I see is against:

• Low level zone GMs are defeated in shorter times (defeat times are faster, presumably because -Regen only from the MM is "enough")
• Even-level x8 instanced missions are cleared faster (presumably because of increased damage, and not needing to slot KB->KD)

Fore example: I don't recall being able to reliably defeat the Grandville Arachnos Flier at a single landing site (with only Robotic henchmen) prior to the recent changes. Since the update, I can be reasonably "late" to a landing site and still have a 50-50 chance to defeat it before it takes off with its shields up. I feel like noting: even with the longest path between landing sites (is it Beta 1 -> Beta 2?) that allows the flier to nearly completely regenerate, the Robots can eliminate the flier at the next site.

 

Also complicating things for me:  RNG provides wide swings in defeat times against certain GMs (notably Jurassik).

 

I do agree with the idea that if the new set is better or worse might hinge greatly on secondary, playstyle, and activity. As for me personally, my main Robotics are /EA, /Time, and /Dark. And my main activities are TFs (with friends) where I can't really notice any difference, soloing AE's, GMs, AVs, and +4/8 tasks where times are almost universally worse, and Ouro tasks which seem to be roughly equal, but with improved gameplay.

[Raikao]

20 minutes ago, tidge said:

 

I think I've noticed (corner?) cases where the performance of Robotics (/Traps) has improved, and some where it is worse. I can't be sure, as I had mostly mothballed by Homecoming Day 0 MM for a year or more until the more recent changes. I also had leveraged the MM primary attacks, so I didn't have to radically change my playstyle. What follows is purely anecdotal.

 

The area where performance is worse is in solo play against PI/Eden/Abyss Giant Monsters. My guess is that this is because previously the -Regen from 6 henchmen was doing a LOT of heavy lifting against these big sacks of HP. I don't regularly tackle enough different content to see this, except that I feel like high-level zone's Event GMs also take slightly longer to solo, whereas low-level zone event GMs (e.g. Winter Lord) have roughly the same (solo) defeat times.

 

The improvement I see is against:

• Low level zone GMs are defeated in shorter times (defeat times are faster, presumably because -Regen only from the MM is "enough")
• Even-level x8 instanced missions are cleared faster (presumably because of increased damage, and not needing to slot KB->KD)

Fore example: I don't recall being able to reliably defeat the Grandville Arachnos Flier at a single landing site (with only Robotic henchmen) prior to the recent changes. Since the update, I can be reasonably "late" to a landing site and still have a 50-50 chance to defeat it before it takes off with its shields up. I feel like noting: even with the longest path between landing sites (is it Beta 1 -> Beta 2?) that allows the flier to nearly completely regenerate, the Robots can eliminate the flier at the next site.

 

Also complicating things for me:  RNG provides wide swings in defeat times against certain GMs (notably Jurassik).

 

Small correction: Only the T3 Bot had -regen, but -500% on two different attacks. Which they moved to attacks, where you can now get -600% if you use all three.

 

Now personally I think that's a bit bullshit, each attack should either give more or the single target damage should be better. I was less against it before but it sure feels kind of..reduandant? Since they never balanced the rest of -regen sources. Like I don't see any kind of baseline -regen that should be available to MMs. Bots + Traps would be -1600%. Necro/FF would be 0 I think.

 

But I also wont hold my breath for any fixes or changes. It took the devs 4 years to even touch MMs at all.

[Xandyr]

Savage Leap to the Beasts? That's a really good idea. It "fits" them.

 Also kinda think they should have a  Fear. Revamp the AI also. They tend to stand around a bit.

 Fortify Pack...would be cool if you could "mule" the +defense/+resist IOs.

[kelika2]

As long as the arsonst/assault has a short range breath of fire it will always just go in because why not

 

underhand toss animation with a thermite bomb when to replace spit fire and napalm for bot when