Please educate me on stalker Electric Melee

[Icono04]

So, I made a new Elec/SR stalker. Lots of fun, and I am killing arresting stuff left, right and center. But the thing is, it feels like I am not doing so very efficiently. As in, there is probably way more damage potential in Elec/  than I am currently* getting out of it.

 

I have played an Ice/Energy for several years, and Ice/  has a very simple attack rotation to make the most of Hide, crit mechanics and ATO procs. I wonder whether Elec/  has something similar. So here are my questions to this forum:

1) Is there a generally agreed "best practice" attack rotation for electric melee on stalker - vs. hard targets and vs. groups of minions/lieutenants? 

2) If not, what is everyone's personal preference for attack chain?

3) What are the "must use" and the "must avoid" powers in the Elec/  primary?

 

I hope the questions make sense. Thanks in advance for any advice.

 

[Kaika]

While I'm not particularly experienced in ele melee, some general stalker tips.

 

1: you do not need to be hidden to use Assassin's Shock, infact the power is the strongest single target power you have access too even out of hide, and has a mechanic where each attack gives you a stack of Assassin's Focus which gives assassin's shock a 33% chance to crit with each stack, when there is a orange outline around it, it means it has 100% chance to crit, this is better then trying to placate into long activation Assassin's strike.

 

2: Starting the fight with Assassin's Shock on the biggest target is a very good idea though, as it gives a AoE Fear to all enemies around you, which can keep them off your back for a while and also can just delete the target.

 

3: Build up is your friend, before you use Assassin's Shock from hide, as Assassin's Shock from hide with BU can basically just delete the HP bar of even bosses, or at the very least bring them really close. otherwise though it should be used on cool-down in combat, or at least before you use a crit AS

 

2: While SR is a amazing set, its pretty weak at lower levels due to having massive holes in your defenses till you get most of the powers. It WILL get better

 

4: if you have the Money look into getting the Stalker ATO sets, or at least the procs from them. Once gives a chance to rehide to a attack, which fits nicely into Assassin's shock to guarantee the follow up crits. The other makes it so ALL attack powers have a chance to instantly recharge Build up, this chance is ON HIT rather then on power use and can cause your damage to snowball very fast. Unfortunately it does not play well with Electrics AoEs due to them being weird (A Pseudo pet and a Chain) but it's still very worth having if you can afford it. (though feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here, it still works just only like a single target power if I recall)

 

As for the intricacies of Ele melee specifically I'll leave that for others with more experience with the set

Edited September 11, 2023 by Riot Siren

[Icono04]

On 9/11/2023 at 5:58 PM, Riot Siren said:

As for the intricacies of Ele melee specifically I'll leave that for others with more experience with the set

Thank you for adding this last part, @Riot Siren, but after three days of no other replies, I will assume that no one is going to take the bait. Not a big deal, though, because the general stalker tips you posted are very nicely explained, enough so to help me figure out a better attack rotation on my own. Which is better than just being given the rotation by a(nother) expert, because it is better for a man to learn to fish than to just be given a fish etc etc. 🙂  So, many thanks for the help - much appreciated. 💪

 

[Groovy_Ghoul]

Good advice from Riot Siren.
 

Drop either Charged Brawl or Havoc Punch. Definitely drop Placate. I would likely open with Build Up then either Thunder Strike or Chain Induction depending on multiple targets or single target but an attack that will crit from hide. Lightning Rod will not crit from hide but I would follow up as my 2nd attack.  At this point I would use my AS and BU when they proc. Try out different combinations, you will find a good chain of attacks.

 

I would also look at Mu Mastery for Zapp and Ball Lightning. Both provide more electricity goodness.

 

Have fun. Electric Melee is a great primary.

[Kaika]

On 9/14/2023 at 1:09 PM, Groovy_Ghoul said:

Good advice from Riot Siren.
 

Drop either Charged Brawl or Havoc Punch. Definitely drop Placate. I would likely open with Build Up then either Thunder Strike or Chain Induction depending on multiple targets or single target but an attack that will crit from hide. Lightning Rod will not crit from hide but I would follow up as my 2nd attack.  At this point I would use my AS and BU when they proc. Try out different combinations, you will find a good chain of attacks.

 

I would also look at Mu Mastery for Zapp and Ball Lightning. Both provide more electricity goodness.

 

Have fun. Electric Melee is a great primary.

 

I definitely second the Mu pick, it both fits thematically, and offers another solid single target option, which Ele melee can very much use, and an extremely powerful AoE in Ball Lightning. On top of amazing DPA, Ball lightning also really works well with the build up reset ATO, almost guaranteeing a reset if you hit the target cap, which is trivial with its large radius. Paired with Ele melee's already solid AoE line up, it can turn you into a AoE powerhouse that can make even blasters a bit jealous, while still having a stalkers single target mastery.

Edited September 17, 2023 by Riot Siren

[Troo]

these two comments fail to sync for me

 

On 9/11/2023 at 8:58 AM, Riot Siren said:

While SR is a amazing set, its pretty weak at lower levels due to having massive holes in your defenses till you get most of the powers. It WILL get better

On 9/14/2023 at 10:09 AM, Groovy_Ghoul said:

Definitely drop Placate.

 

Take Placate, and use it liberally.

 

Placate is one of the most powerful capabilities in the game. Especially earlier in the game. Note: Placate cannot miss. (very dependable)

Once we have accolades, full sets of enhancements, epic pool powers, etc it might not be needed anymore and can be dropped during a respecification or on a alternate build.

 

Getting back to a hidden state for the crits definitely can help.

 

Edited September 17, 2023 by Troo

[Frosticus]

2 hours ago, Troo said:

 

Take Placate, and use it liberally.

 

 

Agreed. It is a very strong power both offensively and defensively. 

 

I'd personally skip hide before placate if it came down to it because once I'm in mission it is rare for hide to naturally kick back on between spawns. 

[Groovy_Ghoul]

I mostly group, so should have caveated the Definitely drop Placate with a dependency on soloing or not soloing. Placate is very powerful when not on teams, however when in a group, there is not much of a need for it. The fights usually don't last long enough. Sure there are instances, when it could be used, however, the crit chance for Stalkers greatly increases with the number of team members. I don't have it on any of my Stalkers and I don't miss it. YMMV.

 

If you have the Stalker ATOs, the Chance to Hide is NOT rare at all, it procs regularly during fights. (20%, 4ppm for the slotted power) Purple version is higher. (33%, 5ppm). Without the ATO proc, Hide suppresses for 8 seconds after an attack. 

 

I'm always willing to try out different combinations of powers and I'm sure all of us here in the forums would love to see a no Hide build with Placate that is superior to a no Placate with Hide.

[Frosticus]

8 hours ago, Groovy_Ghoul said:

I mostly group, so should have caveated the Definitely drop Placate with a dependency on soloing or not soloing. Placate is very powerful when not on teams, however when in a group, there is not much of a need for it. The fights usually don't last long enough. Sure there are instances, when it could be used, however, the crit chance for Stalkers greatly increases with the number of team members. I don't have it on any of my Stalkers and I don't miss it. YMMV.

 

If you have the Stalker ATOs, the Chance to Hide is NOT rare at all, it procs regularly during fights. (20%, 4ppm for the slotted power) Purple version is higher. (33%, 5ppm). Without the ATO proc, Hide suppresses for 8 seconds after an attack. 

Placate is even better on teams, aoe crits all day.

If you haven't tried it since it was buffed please do. It is night and day compared to how it used to be. If you have and didn't see large potential gains during play then it is what it is.

 

8 hours ago, Groovy_Ghoul said:

I'm always willing to try out different combinations of powers and I'm sure all of us here in the forums would love to see a no Hide build with Placate that is superior to a no Placate with Hide.

What would a superior build look like to you? 

Higher dps? Able to complete harder content?

What would you like to see because a "build" isn't going to convince most people.

 

I mean ideally you have both, but if I was pressed I'd take placate, it is unique and rarely resisted.

[Groovy_Ghoul]

Yes to both higher dps and higher content. I have not tried it out since its buff but you have me intrigued. 
 

How would you slot it? Number and enhancement type?

 

Thanks for the info. I think posting a build and a short explanation of best use would convince others, at least myself, that it should be incorporated regularly. 

[Kaika]

8 hours ago, Frosticus said:

Placate is even better on teams, aoe crits all day.

If you haven't tried it since it was buffed please do. It is night and day compared to how it used to be. If you have and didn't see large potential gains during play then it is what it is.

 

I hate to say this, but on large teams is where placate is at it's worst.

 

Stalker AoEs only have a 50% crit chance from hide, which sounds like a good trade off on paper, but you have to remember that stalkers crit outside of hide. Base crit chance raises with every member of your team, starting at 10% and gaining 3% for every team member, capping out at 31% on a full team. This means that in AoE placate is only offering you an extra 19% crit chance on a full team, not a 50% one which most people seem to presume. This does neatly translate into a average 19% more damage (assuming no procs). Placate also isn't free, it takes roughly 0.8 seconds to animate, which is time you could be spending just punching someone in the face for more damage then the place would give, even in AoE. I'm not sure stalkers even have any AoE that comes close to making it decent in terms of DPA. If you are really desperate for AoE it could maybe be worth it, but that is especially not the case for ele, which has plenty to choose from. It's not a bad power by any stretch, but more in terms of utility, with some extra bonus damage, being able to "turn off" enemies has plenty of uses.

Edited September 18, 2023 by Riot Siren

[Frosticus]

7 hours ago, Riot Siren said:

I hate to say this, but on large teams is where placate is at it's worst.

 

Stalker AoEs only have a 50% crit chance from hide, which sounds like a good trade off on paper, but you have to remember that stalkers crit outside of hide. Base crit chance raises with every member of your team, starting at 10% and gaining 3% for every team member, capping out at 31% on a full team. This means that in AoE placate is only offering you an extra 19% crit chance on a full team, not a 50% one which most people seem to presume. This does neatly translate into a average 19% more damage (assuming no procs). Placate also isn't free, it takes roughly 0.8 seconds to animate, which is time you could be spending just punching someone in the face for more damage then the place would give, even in AoE. I'm not sure stalkers even have any AoE that comes close to making it decent in terms of DPA. If you are really desperate for AoE it could maybe be worth it, but that is especially not the case for ele, which has plenty to choose from. It's not a bad power by any stretch, but more in terms of utility, with some extra bonus damage, being able to "turn off" enemies has plenty of uses.

 

This is a common misconception. Teammates have to be within 30ft of you. That is very unlikely on any team moving at a decent clip. You'll be lucky to have 3-4 within range when you launch your opening aoe attack. As you say, at worst it is a +19% crit chance, but it is more typically +25-30% in practice. Stalkers can have decent aoe if they build for it, which I imagine most team-centric stalkers do.

 

The cast time of placate is very fast, but also has little opportunity cost. You can't punch something in the face from 60ft away as you are jumping in, but you can placate and then cast your aoes. Most teams move too quickly for hide to reengage organically.

 

The single target advantage is less on a team, that is true. Not because it doesn't work the same way, but because the team will have likely condensed near your location when you are single target killing, so you'll get that full 31% and at that point placate could potentially take away an opportunity for an assassins focus stack of a weaker attack. 

 

Indeed, some sets benefit more from it than others.

10 hours ago, Groovy_Ghoul said:

Yes to both higher dps and higher content. I have not tried it out since its buff but you have me intrigued. 
 

How would you slot it? Number and enhancement type?

 

Thanks for the info. I think posting a build and a short explanation of best use would convince others, at least myself, that it should be incorporated regularly. 

 

You should definitely try it. Old placate was 100% skip in pve. New placate is an i win button in so many situations. The increase to 5 targets was significant, but the cast time reduction was perhaps even more important. So often with the old one you'd cast placate so slowly that it would often be broken before you could get an attack cued. That happens far less often now. 

 

How you slot it will be build dependent. It is auto-hit, costs zero end, I just do recharge, but range can be nice too.

All a posted build will show is ~2% less defense from hide.

 

I'll upload some videos of a stalker in the next week or so. Full disclose, it is an EM stalker, which imo does gain a bit more from placate than some others. 

 

 

[Kaika]

6 hours ago, Frosticus said:

 

This is a common misconception. Teammates have to be within 30ft of you. That is very unlikely on any team moving at a decent clip. You'll be lucky to have 3-4 within range when you launch your opening aoe attack. As you say, at worst it is a +19% crit chance, but it is more typically +25-30% in practice. Stalkers can have decent aoe if they build for it, which I imagine most team-centric stalkers do.

 

The cast time of placate is very fast, but also has little opportunity cost. You can't punch something in the face from 60ft away as you are jumping in, but you can placate and then cast your aoes. Most teams move too quickly for hide to reengage organically.

 

The single target advantage is less on a team, that is true. Not because it doesn't work the same way, but because the team will have likely condensed near your location when you are single target killing, so you'll get that full 31% and at that point placate could potentially take away an opportunity for an assassins focus stack of a weaker attack. 

 

Indeed, some sets benefit more from it than others.

 

While I appreciate the clarification here, I still don't see it being as worth it outside of specific builds. I usually play a AoE stalker at a break neck speed, playing well ahead of my team, and I don't tend to have the re-hide issues. Sure I can't punch something in the face from 60 Ft away, but I can throw a ball of lighting at them from farther. This is definitely a nuanced topic, and can vary depending on how/what you are building, which is why I think people tend to be in disagreement about it. But all this is kinda talking around the elephant in the room here when talking about placate from a damage perspective, the Stalker's Guile ATO.  The stalker ATO basically makes assassin's strike(or whatever you decide to put it in) function as a better placate (from a DPS perspective), since now you have a power that deals damage and also functions as placate (though at about a 85% to 95% rate). This means that you can, without placate, already hit your most effective AoE from hide with decent consistency without need for placate itself, on a shorter cool-down even.

 

I want to restate that I don't think placate is a bad power, but I think people either under or over rate it. One thing I do wanna say is that, on SOs, it is 100% a amazing power that everyone should take, but I think the waters in particular get very muddy when building out with IOs. I'm glad we seem to be on the same page with single target though.

 

Now back to the Topic at hand, in particular I don't think placate is really an amazing pick for a Ele/Sr/Mu, due to it not really effecting any of the powers you would want to use it with. Lightning rod does not interact with hide as a mechanic, and Chain induction does not crit on anything besides the first hit. This leaves Thunder Strike, Ball lightning, and Jacobs ladder that meaningfully interact with placate, and I don't really see it being worth it with any of them. Ball Lightning is a quick, high DPS, power that has alot of value for the amount of damage it deals so quickly, but its raw damage isn't that high The power is only 0.2 slower then placate itself, making this not really a great candidate for using placate with. Jacobs Ladder is a tiny 50 degree arc cone, that you most likely are only gonna be hitting around 3 targets with if even, with a cap of 5. It's raw damage is better then ball lightning, but not by much, and it's hampered by its tiny cone and target cap. Thunder Strike is definitely the best candidate for placate here, but due to it's nature as a hybrid St/AoE power it does not hit particularly hard from either angle, the example you gave before in power crash deals twice the raw damage of thunderstrike's AoE component, making it half as good when looking at using it with placate. I want to reiterate, that when looking at these from a DPS perspective you can replace placate with Stalker's guile in Assassin's strike for roughly the same effect, diminishing it's use in the build even further.

 

If you want to recommended it from a utility angle, by all means, it still has value there, but looking at it as a DPS tool, particularly if we are involving the ATOs, and in regards to their chosen powersets I personally can't recommend it beyond utility.

Edited September 19, 2023 by Riot Siren

[Frosticus]

To each their own, but I encourage everyone to try it.

 

Hide proc has an internal lockout of 10 seconds. Placate hide is independent from that.

 

Which is to say, as I originally stated. If push came to shove I'd take placate over hide. Placate and the hide ATO still function without the "hide" power. I'm rarely "organically" hidden once on a map teamed or solo.

 

 

[Zect]

New placate is so good as a dps tool. I think Frosticus doesn't make it sound good enough, because they trickle out the gospel over the course of half a dozen posts instead of putting it all in one. Here it is:

• Autohit
• Guaranteed crit
• Shorter animation
• No internal lockout

Just think of it as a 2nd BU that bypasses the damage cap on whatever attack you want to use.

 

I particularly enjoy it on many "classic" primaries (the ones that lose aoe) because when you have fewer aoes the way to make up for it is to make every single one crit.

[carroto]

On 9/11/2023 at 8:27 AM, Icono04 said:

Is there a generally agreed "best practice" attack rotation for electric melee on stalker - vs. hard targets and vs. groups of minions/lieutenants?

 

According to this guy the best single-target attack chain for a Brute is Chain Induction -> Charged Brawl -> Jacob's Ladder -> Charged Brawl.  Stalkers are a bit more complex because you want to build three stacks of Assassin's Focus and then put a fast AS in the mix.  Chain Induction has a 100% chance to grant a stack.  Jacob's Ladder 90% and Charged Brawl 65%.  So you're not going to have a completely fixed and reliable chain because you won't have 3 stacks guaranteed at any point.

 

I'll try to remember to come back and look at attack chains for Stalker Elec Melee in more detail.  One thing though is that sometimes the optimal attack chain requires extreme levels of recharge, and you may not want to spend the inf or make the build sacrifices to get there.

 

For groups of mobs of course you'll want to use Chain Induction and Thunder Strike if you have it.  Yes Thunder Strike is slow and poor DPS against a single target, but if you have enough of them clustered up it's actually pretty good damage.  It only does half it's damage in the AoE, the rest is the primary target only.  Still that's better than most other versions of the power other ATs get.  Many have a much lower percentage of their damage as AoE.  I try to squeeze as many procs in here as possible to increase the AoE damage, and a FF proc to bring all my best stuff back faster (especially Lightning Rod).

 

Procs work in Chain Induction but have a much higher chance to fire against the primary target than the chain targets.  I couldn't resist having a bit of fun here and put a KD and hold proc in there and they don't fire a ton but it's funny to see the chain going around and seeing mobs fall down or get frozen in a block of ice.  Not the best for performance, but sometimes sacrifices have to me made in the name of fun.

 

 

On 9/11/2023 at 8:27 AM, Icono04 said:

3) What are the "must use" and the "must avoid" powers in the Elec/  primary?

 

Placate has been discussed.  Personal preference.  You'll probably want to skip one of the first two powers.  Havoc Punch has the lower DPSA by just a bit, but it does have an 80% chance to grant Assassin's Focus, so I wonder if it might be better to take the slight hit on damage to have a higher chance to build AF.  Might increase damage overall having your fast AS ready to go sooner and more reliably.  I don't have a good intuition on that so I'd probably have to see if I could write a crude simulator to calculate the average damage with different approaches.

 

One thing you may be aware of that surprised me a bit (but others were probably already aware of) when I was running some Stalker power set comparisons by calculating DPS of some attack chains, is that the fast AS is a huge part of your damage output.  You want to get it ready to go and fire it off as quickly as you can.  It's just so far ahead of most other attacks available to Stalkers in terms of DPSA that it tends to dominate the overall DPS of an attack chain.  To the extent that the sets with slower animations on their fast AS get their entire performance dragged down by that difference.

 

Fire Melee for Stalkers is not in the top tier for damage, but that's exclusively because it has one of the slower AS animations.  Damn shame.  Still a good set, but could be so much more.

 

Chain Induction is a great power.  Fast animation so it does great damage.  Long recharge which is unfortunate, but that means that it will proc well against your primary target.  The chain proc chances are not affected by that IIRC.  This is one of the least skippable powers for me.

Edited September 21, 2023 by carroto

[Kaika]

53 minutes ago, carroto said:

Fire Melee for Stalkers is not in the top tier for damage, but that's exclusively because it has one of the slower AS animations.  Damn shame.  Still a good set, but could be so much more.

 

Just to clarify a bit here, this isn't that big of a deal for the 1.67 AS sets. For sure it holds fire melee back a bit but the set makes up for it due to how good GFS and cremate are, and access to -def to slot for -res, on my main I can still get a plyon time of around 90 seconds and I'm built for generalist/AoE play, I would even say it's arguably top teir, though definitely arguably(the bottom of top at best). Two other sets have the same issue, Ice melee, which everyone will likely agree is in contention for best stalker set, and BS which is not really great, but for alot of reason, a bad AS only being one of them. For sure it's not good, but if either Ice or Fire had it, they would likely be the best stalker set in the game, and by a decent margin(ice more then fire), BS though really does not need it. I think this still speaks to the raw power of AS though, where even the worst ones are good enough to not really bring down the sets that much.

 

A better example of how important AS is would be Kinetic Melee, which has the best AS in the game, at a lightning 0.67 seconds, which (along with 100% crit from hide in burst) elevates the set to a pretty solid level. For comparison on the other melee ATs Kin melee is almost unarguably the worst melee set, and by a decent margin. Stalker getting Build up does help here but the ridiculously fast AS is what puts this set on the map.

 

To add to this as well, DPS wise Assassin's strike outside of hide > Assassin's strike in hide, and that's before we factor in crit chance via Assassin's focus procs. Basically this means that you would really only use AS from hide as a initiation burst option, or in order to use the AoE fear. For this reason, and since you are basically gonna be hitting this on CD due to it's High DPS, the hide proc is almost always placed here. I think the only attack in the game that realistically contest with AS is Fast Energy transfer, and that power is basically the entire reason Energy melee is so good.

Edited September 21, 2023 by Riot Siren

[Icono04]

Thank you for all the feedback and info, everyone. Definitely useful, and this has helped me streamline the way I play my Elec/SR. 50'ed and IO'ed out now, with t3 in all incarnate slots except Hybrid. Great stuff, thanks all. :)