Focused Feedback: High-Level Circle of Thorns Revamp

[Coyotedancer]

5 minutes ago, Ruin Mage said:

I can't wait for Earthquake + Dispersion Bubble + buffed ruin mages because someone didn't lock down that one mage type.

At level 54.

It probably won't do much on a team that's popped their Destinies but god. The havoc possibilites...

 

It ends with the Ruin Mage as the only survivor of his group, being chased around by a cursing, grey-winged girl with glowing blue Tal swords.  😝

 

I missed one in a large group when I took Kestrel and Cardinal Circle hunting.  Kes ended up chasing that jerk all over the room, trying to get a blade on him. 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 25 by Coyotedancer

[Apian]

Having tested a few Circle missions on three characters, Ice/Nature Corr, SS/Regen Brute, and Merc/Thermal MM at +4x8 I will say I like most of the changes to the Circle. Obviously the mastermind struggled sometimes, but it wasn't too frequent and it was easy to recover. The variety in new enemy types makes them more interesting to fight.

I think the only thing I have an issue with the changes is on the rare occasion a group spawns with two ruin mages and two death mages and they decide to drop a double earthquake and tar patch and have enough CC to get through even a melee ATs mez protection. Maybe their spawns should be limited to 1 max per group? The exploding magi are definitely an issue for pets if/when they all explode one after the other, but enemies that explode have always been an issue for pets.

Overall, the Circle feel like a fair challenge now and more interesting to fight even if we do still need a lot of insight inspirations at times to fight off the -tohit.

Edited January 26 by Apian

[icesphere]

What is the damage type from the bosses' nuke?

[KaizenSoze]

43 minutes ago, icesphere said:

What is the damage type from the bosses' nuke?

Depends on the boss, dark, sonic(energy), meteor. Maybe Psi, not sure.

[PeregrineFalcon]

I was just on Brainstorm testing this. I was solo with a level 50 Tank doing radio missions on my island.

 

I could see the difference in enemy powers, it made things interesting again, but it wasn't enough to save them.

[archgemini24]

Did some running against the new CoT with the characters I usually play (+3/8 or +4/8), and while I do not mind the added difficulty, the loss of "vent your frustration by unleashing your almost-fully-realized Demigod against them" enemy groups took some adjustment. I actually liked the added diversity of Mages... until the game decided to throw that diversity out the window and give me 2 Ruins and 2 Deaths in every spawn. My non-Regen Tanks, Scrappers, and Brutes held up well enough to where I probably would not think to change settings, but the Peacebringer will either need another look or just go back to +2 or +1.

 

I freely acknowledge I could turn the difficulty down... or run back to DA, where those characters keep all of the power they have gained so the enemies Con 2 colors lower, my kill speed increases as a result, and I get better per-mob rewards. Are we ok with DA being a potentially equal or possibly easier place to grind?

[Coyotedancer]

I still say that the Ruin and Death Mages need to be set to spawndef 1... Or their patches need to be one-at-a-time. The stacked Tar Patch or stacked Earthquake feels like too much, even if a high-end Incarnate build can still take it. 

 

We *do* need to remember that not everyone who's going to run into these guys is a finished, level 50+, fully kitted-out Incarnate character. These guys are going to be showing up in any higher-level Circle content... Not just murderball PI radio missions.  

 

 

 

 

Edited January 28 by Coyotedancer

[SaxyGuitar]

 

9 minutes ago, archgemini24 said:

Are we ok with DA being a potentially equal or possibly easier place to grind?

 

That's a good question. I'll have to see if I think they are easier or harder then the incarnate versions.

[Coyotedancer]

Just now, SaxyGuitar said:

 

 

That's a good question. I'll have to see if I think they are easier or harder then the incarnate versions.

 

 

The revamped Circle are quite a bit tougher to handle than the DA Incarnate version. It's not even much of a contest. 

[archgemini24]

12 minutes ago, Coyotedancer said:

 

 

The revamped Circle are quite a bit tougher to handle than the DA Incarnate version. It's not even much of a contest. 

 

Especially if you get the wrong configuration of Mages. Base to-hit being 64% in DA is irrelevant when 2 Ruins and 2 Deaths can break all your IO building efforts because you do not have Debuff Resistance (on my PB, at least I had Light Form to mostly negate the Tar Patch -Res). Any of my characters with Debuff Resistance were mostly ok, but anyone without was put on notice immediately. For all that I might as well go where my kill speed and survival scores are better because I am 53 instead of 51 against the same level enemies, the per-mob rewards are higher because it is Incarnate content, and I get a reward roll at every mission completion. Again, that was all solo, though. It does not look like teams are having too much more trouble, which is fine but I do not think was the intention.

 

Among the Radio mission enemies, we had old-Council and old-CoT that maybe hit a 2/10 or 3/10 on the difficulty scale versus Arachnos and Carnies that hit 7 or greater, so there were some people arguing that Council and CoT were too easy. I would say these changes put them both at least among the Arachnos and Carnies (depending on build, potentially harder). Maybe I am just ignorant, but where is the end-game Radio-option enemy group that runs at the middle difficulty for the majority of players? That is, if you rolled 3 Radio missions, 1 being Arachnos, 1 Carnies, and 1 of that other group, you go ahead and pick that group if you want lighter work without rerolling the set?

[Coyotedancer]

We've always got the Freaks... Or Malta, I guess, if you have a way to gib the Sappers.

[KaizenSoze]

2 minutes ago, archgemini24 said:

Among the Radio mission enemies, we had old-Council and old-CoT that maybe hit a 2/10 or 3/10 on the difficulty scale versus Arachnos and Carnies that hit 7 or greater, so there were some people arguing that Council and CoT were too easy. I would say these changes put them both at least among the Arachnos and Carnies (depending on build, potentially harder). Maybe I am just ignorant, but where is the end-game Radio-option enemy group that runs at the middle difficulty for the majority of players? That is, if you rolled 3 Radio missions, 1 being Arachnos, 1 Carnies, and 1 of that other group, you go ahead and pick that group if you want lighter work without rerolling the set?

 Council is still the easiest PI radio group. Just the difficult between the 4 main groups is much closer. Council lack serious -defense or super nasty debuffs.

 

Malta exists in PI radio, but only as a rare Pawn shop mission. So, they don't count.

[archgemini24]

3 minutes ago, Coyotedancer said:

We've always got the Freaks... Or Malta, I guess, if you have a way to gib the Sappers.

 

Do those come up as Radio options? I usually see Council, CoT, Arachnos, and Carnies. Perhaps it is just my rotten luck, but, yes, those would qualify as the middle difficulty mobs. Good catch!

 

Edit to add: thank you KaizenSoze! So Malta is rare, but Freaks do not come up. Good to know something matched my anecdotal observations.

Edited January 27 by archgemini24

[Coyotedancer]

3 minutes ago, KaizenSoze said:

 Council is still the easiest PI radio group. Just the difficult between the 4 main groups is much closer. Council lack serious -defense or super nasty debuffs.

 

Malta exists in PI radio, but only as a rare Pawn shop mission. So, they don't count.

 

Huh. I thought Malta were more common than that... 

 

I guess you can tell how often I do PI radios. 🤣

 

How about Arachnos? Do they show up?

 

 

 

Edited January 27 by Coyotedancer

[Lazarillo]

Just now, Coyotedancer said:

 

Huh. I thought Malta were more common than that... 

 

I guess you can tell how often I do PI radios. 🤣

Malta are one of the four main groups redside (instead of Arachnos), so maybe that put the idea in your head? I know I frequently got confused by it in Peregrine too for that reason.

[Coyotedancer]

Just now, Lazarillo said:

Malta are one of the four main groups redside (instead of Arachnos), so maybe that put the idea in your head? I know I frequently got confused by it in Peregrine too for that reason.

 

 

Could be. I do spend a fair bit of time on the sketchy side of the game. 

[KaizenSoze]

Just now, Coyotedancer said:

 

Huh. I thought Malta were more common than that... 

 

I guess you can tell how often I do PI radios. 🤣

Last comment as to not derail. Malta might appear in the Pawn Shop and a non-detective Bank Robbery. You get one of those mission once every 20+ missions.

 

Once, you hit level 41 or 42 I forget. Freakshow will no longer appear as radio mobs in PI.

[archgemini24]

11 minutes ago, KaizenSoze said:

Last comment as to not derail. Malta might appear in the Pawn Shop and a non-detective Bank Robbery. You get one of those mission once every 20+ missions.

 

Once, you hit level 41 or 42 I forget. Freakshow will no longer appear as radio mobs in PI.

 

My attempt to tie this back to the original subject: Circle of Thorns might be overtuned to the point where folks will avoid them whenever possible, similar to how most folks curently avoid Arachnos and Carnies when they are options for Radios, which ties back to my original point about new-CoT difficulty where if all four groups are going to same difficulty (or close) yet just different in how they reach that score, why not go to DA (other than access)? Can CoT be tuned to where they hit the middle marks (that is, significantly harder than they are on live, but distinctly a step down from Arachnos and Carnies) similar to where we think Malta and Freakshow land?

Edited January 27 by archgemini24

[Wavicle]

On 1/24/2024 at 12:40 PM, WindDemon21 said:

There is absolutely zero reason to make these mobs harder.

There is absolutely zero reason there should be easy mobs in this level range. "Because it has always been this way," is an awful justification.

[tricon]

Played a bit against them as a incarnate full IO at +4/x8

 

Powerlvl seems a bit overtuned and way more in line what you would expect from dark astoria mobs a zone that was designed for higher lvl chars.

I can still go through single groups but not without to prioritize target like you would do with certain other groups like pantheon sorrow. Quite feasible even  for blasters

but not without much higher risk as before. 

 

Multiple groups, thanks through a ambush got me every time, nothing is more fun as to fight multiple CoT bosses with the new powers. I rate them above certain DA groups now

 

It was interesting to see what got me in the end

 

Quote

Master of Ruin hits you with their Falchion for 364.62 points of Lethal damage.
Master of Ruin hits you with their Falchion for 901.26 points of Negative Energy damage.

Pharason hits you with their Dreadful Wail for 200.44 points of Smashing damage.
Pharason hits you with their Dreadful Wail for 780.43 points of Energy damage.
Pharason hits you with their Dreadful Wail for 520.28 points of Energy damage.

 

 

When I consider that in PI you can also compete against the groups with lvl 47 without much IO support, it will be quite a challenge. Will the DA groups also be made stronger in one of the next issues, at the moment, this is more than unbalanced?

[SwitchFade]

Way overtuned if the baseline is SO builds.

 

And, this is being done with an influx of newbies.

[Coyotedancer]

As I said over in the Council Revamp thread, most of us seem to have been testing with teams anchored by 50's or solo with our finished, Incarnate characters.... We really *REALLY* do need to come at these guys with some lower-level, unfinished characters to see how they handle at less-than-optimal power points. Players are going to start running into these goons well before the point of being at their ultimate prime, remember.

 

I only have one "unfinished", non-50 character in the right level range to try that with (a level 45 Psi/Shield Brute with a partial set build-), but I went ahead and moved him over to beta last night. I'll be throwing him at these goons and the new Council this afternoon. He doesn't run at +4x8 on Live yet, so I have a feeling that they're going to feel pretty brutal, if not just completely outright overpowered, with him even on modest difficulty. Especially if he hits one of those double-Death or double-Ruin groups.

[PeregrineFalcon]

I was just on Brainstorm testing this. I was solo with a level 30 Fire/Energy Sentinel, all even level SOs except for 1 Performance Proc for the Endurance.

 

As before it didn't make them any more dangerous, just more interesting.

[StarkWhite]

1 hour ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

I was just on Brainstorm testing this. I was solo with a level 30 Fire/Energy Sentinel, all even level SOs except for 1 Performance Proc for the Endurance.

 

As before it didn't make them any more dangerous, just more interesting.

At level 30 I don't think you should be running into any changed mobs.

[PeregrineFalcon]

33 minutes ago, StarkWhite said:

At level 30 I don't think you should be running into any changed mobs.

People were talking about testing below level 50, so I logged on with the only non-50 character I had on Brainstorm. I saw something that made me think that there was something a little different than what I was used to at that level, but I think you're right. I think I was just misremembering.