kelika2 Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 Level 6 - the same Level 12 - Third T1 pet Level 20 - Second T2 pet Level 30 - Tier1 pets gain +1 level Level 40 - Tier2 pets gain +1 level Level 50 - Tier1 pets gain another +1 level And because adding +1 knock protection worked out so well for Fiery Aura maybe add +1 knock protection to Supremacy 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxzero Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 (edited) Make pets just the same level as the MM at all levels. Simple and effective. "But it would make MMs too good at leveling!" So what? They are already the most popular class at low levels but least popular at high levels and pet levels is a factor in this. Edited February 13 by Maxzero 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monos King Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 13 hours ago, Maxzero said: But it would make MMs too good at leveling! It's worth noting MM pets are already OP at leveling anyway, in a somewhat unintuitive attempt at making them useful against higher conning enemies (they could've skipped this by making the pets just not a lower level). The Mastermind Enthusiast City of Heroes Lore Discord MM Global Changes | The MM Wishlist Temporary Powers | Omnibus' Alchemist Archetype Is The Game Too Easy (2021) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelika2 Posted February 13 Author Share Posted February 13 I highly doubt that there is a mechanic or whatever its called that can tie your pets levels to the adjusted level of the maps owner. But if your leader/map owner had a +2 adjusted level, your pets will gain +1 for the maps duration. and if the leader/map owner was set to +4, your pets will be +2. Then again this does nothing for outdoor activities such as Hami, ship, GMs, etc. So with level 30 being the breaking point of when players IOs start turning on I thought that was a nice jumping point for permanent plus pet levels oh and the level 12/20 was purely for more use on lower level task forces. something like having the arsonist in posi or two gargs in synapes 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tidge Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 The one change for MMs that I had been advocating for is building in the effects of the first upgrade to all the henchmen... it makes no sense that the first upgrade is available before two of the three henchmen summons, and that it is available IIRC for the T1 henchmen in all exemplared content. We are WAY past the point at which players would take a long time to get to level 10+, which is teh era I think that the placement of the T1 summons and first upgrade reflect. I've tempered my calls for this, only because MM now have some better slotting options for that power, so it can yield set bonuses/mules/etc. Never-the-less, for primaries that don't have a "fourth" summons power to mule the Defense/Resistance globals, I wouldn't mind if the first upgrade was changed into some sort of resummonable "buff" pet (not a henchman) that could take those globals. I wouldn't mind there being some sort of balance pass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudra Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 (edited) 7 hours ago, tidge said: . it makes no sense that the first upgrade is available before two of the three henchmen summons, Would you rather have to wait until level 24 (formerly level 26?) to be able to upgrade your pets? The point of the T1 upgrade being available early is so that you can improve your pets to deal with the more difficult enemies you start seeing. Not counting the zombies, each pet starts with 2 attacks, typically 1 ranged and 1 melee. (Edit: And that melee is typically Brawl.) The T1 upgrade grants them all another attack that matches the set's melee/range focus, in some cases 2 attacks/abilities. Which means now those pets have a more complete attack chain and can work better at defending you. And I know at least in my case. I want my followers to be able to fight better as soon as possible. Recruitment can be difficult, gotta wait for those levels, but better gear or training for your followers can be pretty much immediate. (Edit: All it really takes is seeing how their training or equipment stacks up or doesn't against your enemies, and then either improving your followers' training regimen based on what happened or getting them better gear.) Edited February 14 by Rudra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biostem Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 Maybe buff supremacy based upon the difficulty setting the mission is set to. Also, perhaps, provide a slightly longer period of invulnerability when pets are first summoned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tidge Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 (edited) 4 hours ago, Rudra said: Would you rather have to wait until level 24 (formerly level 26?) to be able to upgrade your pets? The point of the T1 upgrade being available early is so that you can improve your pets to deal with the more difficult enemies you start seeing. Lemme 'splain. Current: @01 T1 Summon @06 Hench Boost @12 T2 Summon @22 T3 Summon @26 Hench Boost The T2 and T3 are available AFTER the first boost... so why would those henchmen simply not be summoned with the effects of that boost already? It would be a change to give the T1 henchmen that boost but only for level 1 thru 5 content. I don't think there is any place for pearl-clutching how that would ruin the play experience for Masterminds. Baking in the effects of the Level 6 Boost into all the summons would free up a power for all Masterminds. Edited February 14 by tidge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biostem Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 11 minutes ago, tidge said: Baking in the effects of the Level 6 Boost into all the summons would free up a power for all Masterminds. Can we also bake the effects of all the armor toggles into just 1, so it'd free up some power picks for every melee AT as well? 🙄 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudra Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 1 hour ago, tidge said: Lemme 'splain. Current: @01 T1 Summon @06 Hench Boost @12 T2 Summon @22 T3 Summon @26 Hench Boost The T2 and T3 are available AFTER the first boost... so why would those henchmen simply not be summoned with the effects of that boost already? It would be a change to give the T1 henchmen that boost but only for level 1 thru 5 content. I don't think there is any place for pearl-clutching how that would ruin the play experience for Masterminds. Baking in the effects of the Level 6 Boost into all the summons would free up a power for all Masterminds. The same reason why our first pet doesn't start with the T1 upgrade after we get it and none of our pets start with the T2 upgrade after we get it. Because the upgrades are not part of our pets, they are separate powers we apply to them. In the case of the T1 upgrade, it advances our pets to having similar numbers of attacks as the enemies we start encountering at that level. Prior to then, our pets are fine with just 1 or 2 attacks because our enemies only have 1 (sometimes 2) attacks. And the devs have already shown a lack of interest in having MM pet upgrade powers automatically apply. (We already got a huge gift when they made it so applying any upgrade to any pet applies it to all summoned pets instead of having to apply it individually. I can even target a Dark Servant with an MM pet upgrade and have it apply to my actual pets, though obviously it does nothing for the Dark Servant. Using the Dark Servant is often easier mid-battle though since he isn't racing from enemy to enemy and stays where I can target and apply without concern, and the fact I can use literally any pet even if not a primary power set pet to apply the upgrades to my primary power set pets is a huge advantage. Hells, I've used combat NPCs as targets to apply pet upgrades to my pets before because they were more convenient than my actual pets to upgrade my actual pets.) Also, I don't understand why you think there is a need to free up a power slot for MMs. To the best of my knowledge, it is a balance issue. And MMs are really robust. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tidge Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 1 hour ago, biostem said: Can we also bake the effects of all the armor toggles into just 1, so it'd free up some power picks for every melee AT as well? 🙄 I think you are looking at this from the wrong direction... my argument is less about freeing up a single power although that could happen(*1). Imagine if a Tanker had to take a power at Level 6 just to make their higher level choices of armors work at full capacity. AFAIK, except for a few offbeat power sets (examples include: Dual Pistols' Swap Ammo, Bio's Adapatation) and the way Hide works for Stalkers' offense (but Hide isn't in a primary), I can't think of any AT where all the primaries from the same AT specifically require an earlier power to be taken to unlock new abilities in later choices. (*1) As I wrote above, I'd like if all the MM primaries had a place to slot the henchmen/pet globals without having to actually sacrifice henchmen slots. This is why I suggest a long-recharge based resummonable pet at level 6. If the henchmen had the first tier of upgrades baked in, the proposed pet could do something else that buffs the henchmen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudra Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 (edited) 28 minutes ago, tidge said: I think you are looking at this from the wrong direction... my argument is less about freeing up a single power although that could happen(*1). Imagine if a Tanker had to take a power at Level 6 just to make their higher level choices of armors work at full capacity. AFAIK, except for a few offbeat power sets (examples include: Dual Pistols' Swap Ammo, Bio's Adapatation) and the way Hide works for Stalkers' offense (but Hide isn't in a primary), I can't think of any AT where all the primaries from the same AT specifically require an earlier power to be taken to unlock new abilities in later choices. You're right. However, MMs aren't like any other AT either. While Controllers and Dominators get a pet power, their pets are what, minion strength? Whereas MMs start with a lieutenant strength pet and build up to 6 lieutenant strength pets. The entire AT revolves around fielding, upgrading, and controlling an army to fight for them. And like any good mastermind in the comics, they focus more on having their pets, I mean followers and henchmen, handling the heavy load of combat while they direct and support them. So yes, MMs have 2 powers that they have to use in their primaries to get the most out of their pets, but it makes perfect sense because the AT is all about pets. That Tanker? His/her/their primary is all about damage mitigation, so everything in their primary power sets is something that helps them survive being attacked. (Even the offensive sets like Fiery Aura, though they are less about damage mitigation through avoidance and resistance, and more about damage mitigation through removal of damage sources.) (Edit again: And some of those powers the Tanker may have? Require the Tanker to periodically click them again and again to get their benefit.) So for the Tanker to get the most out of his/her/their armor set, they have to take (nearly) all their primary powers. And the MM works the same way. Since pets are their primary, to get the most out of their pets, they need to take most of their primary powers. Edit: Out of 9 powers in the MMs' primaries, you only need 5 (most or a majority) to get the most out of your pets. That's all 3 pet summon powers and both upgrade powers. So that leaves 4 more powers in the set that are not needed to get the most out of the pets. That gives MMs lots of room to expand and grow in any way the player wants. Edited February 15 by Rudra Edited to correct "They" to "The". 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biostem Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 33 minutes ago, tidge said: I think you are looking at this from the wrong direction... my argument is less about freeing up a single power although that could happen(*1). Imagine if a Tanker had to take a power at Level 6 just to make their higher level choices of armors work at full capacity. But they kind of have to now, anyway; If they don't take their status protection power, they aren't going to be very effective. If they don't take one of their armor powers, they won't be as durable as they would otherwise. Heck, many sets with a click status protection power aren't permanent right out the gate - so they have to invest in extra slots in order to reduce the recharge so they're always protected. But let's turn it around - I wish my non-MMs could attack from multiple sources simultaneously without costing them any end. Why should my non-MMs have to invest in end redux or other end-mitigation tools because they're constantly bottoming out their blue bar, while all those MMs just spend a little end to summon their pets and can just sit back and let them do the attacking? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tidge Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 20 minutes ago, Rudra said: The entire AT revolves around fielding, upgrading, and controlling an army to fight for them. I don't disagree, but it makes no sense to me that the henchmen summoned at levels 12 and 22 require a level 6 power to be fully efficient. I have zero issue with the second upgrade being what and where it is, but I cannot imagine a non-gimped MM (with henchmen) delaying the FIRST upgrade until after level 12. 2 minutes ago, biostem said: But they kind of have to now, anyway; If they don't take their status protection power, they aren't going to be very effective. Status protection powers aren't part of those later powers... they are separate powers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biostem Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 (edited) 4 minutes ago, tidge said: Status protection powers aren't part of those later powers... they are separate powers. Irrelevant; Powers are part of a set. My point is that these sets synergize internally. Skip powers at your own peril. In the greater scope, what these suggestions really boil down to is "I want more powers so gimme!". Edited February 15 by biostem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudra Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 14 minutes ago, tidge said: I don't disagree, but it makes no sense to me that the henchmen summoned at levels 12 and 22 require a level 6 power to be fully efficient. I have zero issue with the second upgrade being what and where it is, but I cannot imagine a non-gimped MM (with henchmen) delaying the FIRST upgrade until after level 12. Look at it this way: Your MM has successfully recruited a follower. After fighting through a few levels, your MM devises an improved training regimen teaching the recruited follower new techniques or provides the recruited follower with improved gear they were finally able to get. Your MM then later recruits yet more followers, who all lack the improved training your MM devised or arrived with the same basic gear they could get on their own requiring you to quickly teach them the new techniques or give them the better gear. Yes, you can name your followers to always be the same person, but especially if you watch Thugs or Mercenaries, you see that each time you summon, you are calling new followers to your side, who arrive with their basic training or basic gear. 19 minutes ago, tidge said: Status protection powers aren't part of those later powers... they are separate powers. Correct, they are separate powers that you should take in order to maximize the effectiveness of your primary's purpose: protection from your enemies. By the same token, the upgrades are powers that you should take in order to maximize the effectiveness of your MM's primary's purpose: pets that do the fighting for you. Just like with the Tanker's primary powers, you can skip any you want, but you will find that you are not as effective at being a Tanker, or in this case, a Mastermind. Advantage of the MM over the Tanker? The MM only has 5 powers in their primary that work together to maximize pet effectiveness. (Some have a 6th.) And they only need to be used if you are missing any pets, no need for click powers to maintain benefit/effect, except for the odd set with a 6th pet improvement power, but that power can also be used on teammates. So no need to worry about taking 8 of 9 powers to reach maximum effectiveness, just 5 will do. With your secondary filling in the gaps. So like @biostem is saying, it is all about set synergy. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tidge Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 (edited) 30 minutes ago, Rudra said: So like @biostem is saying, it is all about set synergy. It is a totally unnecessary "synergy" that exists for MMs, for no other reason than the game used to have a time when it took time and effort to get from level 2 to level 6. It isn't as if ALL the other powers available to MMs hinge on that one power to make the player embrace "synergy".... but all the henchmen summons that come levels after it DO hinge on it. It is a totally artificial construct that is being rationalized, and for all practical purposes ONLY affects "game balance" before level 6, because AFTER level 6 almost all MMs will have taken it. 30 minutes ago, Rudra said: Just like with the Tanker's primary powers, you can skip any you want, but you will find that you are not as effective at being a Tanker, I haven't had a Tanker yet where I needed to toggle or click on my low level powers. Specifically for Invulnerability, I rarely toggle on Temp Invulnerability below level 50, and Dull Pain pretty much only gets used in extreme content. Four of the other powers in Invulnerability are Auto, no clicking or toggling required! My other Tankers are similar, most have toggles I don't feel the need to run with, especially Lethal/Smashing toggles. Especially not between levels 1 and 6! Anywho, it is something of a stretch to equate Tanker toggles/clicks with the first henchmen upgrade, which is mostly offense. I'd be perfectly ok with the defensive characteristics of the first upgrade staying with a hypothetical resummonable "buff pet" (assuming it had a respectable radius for henchmen), but it seems silly to me that the henchmen summoned with level 12 and level 22 need a level 6 power cast on them to unlock a significant portion of their offense. Edited February 15 by tidge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudra Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 (edited) 19 minutes ago, tidge said: Anywho, it is something of a stretch to equate Tanker toggles/clicks with the first henchmen upgrade, which is mostly offense. I'd be perfectly ok with the defensive characteristics of the first upgrade staying with a hypothetical resummonable "buff pet" (assuming it had a respectable radius for henchmen), but it seems silly to me that the henchmen summoned with level 12 and level 22 need a level 6 power cast on them to unlock a significant portion of their offense. Do you know why I am using Tankers for comparison? 1 hour ago, tidge said: Imagine if a Tanker had to take a power at Level 6 just to make their higher level choices of armors work at full capacity. Also, the T1 pet upgrade for MMs? Does include defensive options. Such as Robotics with their damage resistance and ninjas with their defense boosts. They're both in the T1 upgrade. 19 minutes ago, tidge said: I haven't had a Tanker yet where I needed to toggle or click on my low level powers. Specifically for Invulnerability, I rarely toggle on Temp Invulnerability below level 50, and Dull Pain pretty much only gets used in extreme content. Four of the other powers in Invulnerability are Auto, no clicking or toggling required! My other Tankers are similar, most have toggles I don't feel the need to run with, especially Lethal/Smashing toggles. Especially not between levels 1 and 6! So when your Tanker has been defeated for any reason, you never need to toggle or click your low level powers? Not a single one? Not even the level 1 Temp Invulnerability? Never, ever, ever, ever, ever? Well, good news! If you keep your pets alive, you never have to click either of the upgrade powers after upgrading your pets! (Edit: Hells, even if you lose your pets, as long as just 1 survives? When you exit the map or zone for any reason? All of your pets now have the same upgrades applied to them even if you did not upgrade the replacement pets.) Now, when they die or you lose them for any reason, then you need to click the upgrade powers to get them back to max effectiveness, just like you have to click Temp Invulnerability, Unyielding, and Invincibility when you are defeated and want to get back to full effectiveness on your Invulnerability Tanker. Edit again: Oh, and if Maintenance Drone and the upgrade powers are any indication? Even if for some reason the T1 upgrade power was replaced with a buff pet? Since it isn't a MM combat pet and is only there to provide the benefits of the T1 upgrade? It still wouldn't be able to accept the MM pet enhancements. So you still wouldn't be able to mule the pet buff special enhancements on it. Those enhancements are in damage sets, so non-attack pets will not get to slot them. And I'm willing to bet the devs won't give us a 7th attack pet in the MM primaries. Edited February 15 by Rudra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biostem Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 22 minutes ago, tidge said: It is a totally artificial construct that is being rationalized Do... do you realize the irony of this statement? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tidge Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 7 hours ago, Rudra said: Also, the T1 pet upgrade for MMs? Does include defensive options. Such as Robotics with their damage resistance and ninjas with their defense boosts. They're both in the T1 upgrade. As I wrote: 22 hours ago, tidge said: I wouldn't mind if the first upgrade was changed into some sort of resummonable "buff" pet (not a henchman) that could take those globals. I wouldn't mind there being some sort of balance pass. The "defensive" portion of the level 6 'upgrade' makes sense (to me) to not bake in (per my suggestion), the same way Defenders usually have some sort of Ally 'defensive' Buff power. The Level 6 first upgrade isn't doing anything directly for the MM defensively (blah blah Bodyguard mode blah blah fishcakes) so the Tanker "armor" comparison falls flat, as a HUGE portion of the MM offense is coming from the application of the current first upgrade to the henchmen.... which I repeat is a level 6 power that has to be applied to powers used level 12 and level 26. Even in terms of rationalizing the "lore", it makes no sense that a boss learns how to make T1 henches, learns how to improve all henches, then learns how to make more offensive T2 and T3 henches but doesn't know how to make those improved offensive T2 or T3 except by backing up and applying some skill they learned at level 6. Folks can rationalize why this happens, and Homecoming has it so that we don't have to individually apply the upgrades (yay!) so it isn't as if all the aspects of the clumsiness of the original version of the first upgrade have gone unnoticed. 7 hours ago, Rudra said: Edit again: Oh, and if Maintenance Drone and the upgrade powers are any indication? Even if for some reason the T1 upgrade power was replaced with a buff pet? Since it isn't a MM combat pet and is only there to provide the benefits of the T1 upgrade? It still wouldn't be able to accept the MM pet enhancements. So you still wouldn't be able to mule the pet buff special enhancements on it. Those enhancements are in damage sets, so non-attack pets will not get to slot them. And I'm willing to bet the devs won't give us a 7th attack pet in the MM primaries. As for what sets can be slotted and how those sets apply set bonuses and globals... that's a coding/configuration setting. Presumably this hypothetical resummonable pet could be used for things like the new/in Beta version of Detonate which does work from enhanced damage values of the thing detonated. All MM primaries have the same sort of "first upgrade", so I don't think it would be as unbalancing among MM primaries as it would be to just ask for a single primary's power (like Maintenance Drone) to accept those global pieces. This isn't a hill I'm going to die on, yet it is obvious (to me) that it makes no sense that every T2 (level 12) and T3 (level 26) henchmen shows up "half-baked" because the MM immediately has to apply a one-and-done power the MM picked back at level 6 to give the just-summoned T2 and T3 a more complete set of offensive tools. Strawman arguments about other classes aren't moving my needle. as the balance issues are inherent to the MM AT. Every (well constructed, so avoiding corner cases like "petless") Mastermind is pretty much always going to have that first upgrade applied at all times, except for these cases: The MM is below level 6 The MM is burning through henchmen and is in the short period (8 seconds?) between when a henchmen is summoned and when the upgrades can be applied/stick I don't think it would be game breaking to have MMs with only a single T1 henchmen have more offense at levels 1-5. baking in the offensive upgrades to the T1 is asymmetrical but this is such a short period of time when there already exist inexpensive asymmetries (cheap P2W boosts, etc) for low-level characters, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ My own experience with "burning through henchmen" is dominated by the need to defensively boost them, and not offensively boost them... which is why I propose the "defense" elements be tied to a level 6 (replacement) power... I mean, as things currently stand: yes the "one more things to do (by applying all upgrades to a newly summoned hench)" is a thing that currently needs to happen, but my experience has been that having newly resummoned T1/T2/T3 with all their offense isn't really going to make a noticeable difference. I suppose it is possible that the henchmen AI might start with a different set of powers, but it is already a pretty short period of time before newly resummoned henchmen can have the upgrade applied to them (and start attacking). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twozerofoxtrot Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 10 hours ago, Rudra said: Out of 9 powers in the MMs' primaries, you only need 5 (most or a majority) to get the most out of your pets. Notable exception for Ninjas whose pets' crit chance improves with each application of a debuff from of the set's bow attacks; likewise Mercs who recieve bonus damage to target hit by the set attacks. I suppose somewhat up for debate is whether or not Beast Mastery's Pack Mentality stacks being added by the set attacks applies here too, since it's objectively better to have max stacks but you're only building them faster with attacks versus not at all. Then there's Necromancy, and I can't imagine skipping the force-multiplication the attacks offer... but that's really not a counter to your point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudra Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 (edited) 7 hours ago, tidge said: so the Tanker "armor" comparison falls flat, Don't make a reference and then complain when others run with it. The whole Tanker part of this discussion came from you. I even showed you the quote. Twice. 7 hours ago, tidge said: as a HUGE portion of the MM offense is coming from the application of the current first upgrade to the henchmen.... which I repeat is a level 6 power that has to be applied to powers used level 12 and level 26. The devs have already shown that is not going to change. They have decided that automatically incorporating MM pet upgrades into the pets is not going to happen. So I don't get why you are so stuck on this. Yes, it was an arbitrary decision that was and is being rationalized. However, absolutely everything in the game comes from the devs point of rationalization and game balance. 7 hours ago, tidge said: As for what sets can be slotted and how those sets apply set bonuses and globals... that's a coding/configuration setting. Presumably this hypothetical resummonable pet could be used for things like the new/in Beta version of Detonate which does work from enhanced damage values of the thing detonated. All MM primaries have the same sort of "first upgrade", so I don't think it would be as unbalancing among MM primaries as it would be to just ask for a single primary's power (like Maintenance Drone) to accept those global pieces. Correct, what enhancements a set can take is a coding issue. However, you are asking for a buff pet to be added to slot damage set special enhancements. I'm rather certain that isn't going to happen. (While we're on this particular part of the topic, do you by any chance play a Thugs MM? If you do, do you use Gang War to hold all the pet special enhancements? If not, why not? It is technically another pet, and it can slot them.) 7 hours ago, tidge said: This isn't a hill I'm going to die on, Then why do you continue to belabor the point? MMs getting their pet upgrades to be toggles, or to be auto powers that always affect the pets, or any other option to not have to click them to apply them has been asked for over and over and over. It isn't going away. 7 hours ago, tidge said: yet it is obvious (to me) that it makes no sense that every T2 (level 12) and T3 (level 26) henchmen shows up "half-baked" because the MM immediately has to apply a one-and-done power the MM picked back at level 6 to give the just-summoned T2 and T3 a more complete set of offensive tools. The only way I can see this getting changed is if the T1 upgrade was moved to the T2 upgrade's place and the T2 upgrade was moved even later, because it sure doesn't look like the devs have any inclinations to make the upgrades, even just one of them, automatically apply. And having the T1 upgrade originate from a summoned pet is dumb to me because either the pet can be killed requiring me to keep re-summoning it to get the benefits of the upgrade again, or my pets can run out of the upgrade pet's radius and lose the benefits of the upgrade. And I very much oppose delaying the T1 upgrade or making its effects dependent on a summoned pet with a radius buff effect. Especially for the sake of freeing up a power slot for all Masterminds (like you stated and then edited out of your post when it was used against you). 7 hours ago, tidge said: Strawman arguments about other classes aren't moving my needle Then don't make them. 7 hours ago, tidge said: The MM is burning through henchmen and is in the short period (8 seconds?) between when a henchmen is summoned and when the upgrades can be applied/stick It is 6 seconds out the box, and without slotting for recharge, my MMs all have it at under 3 seconds. So you can basically use it as fast as you can summon your pets. (For instance, Train Ninjas one my Ninja/Dark MM is currently at a 2.41 second recharge. So as fast as I need to summon my pets? I can also upgrade them. Unless I have a higher priority such as focusing on my secondary.) (Edit: And with a 1.7 second cast time not counting arcanatime for the T1 pet? Yeah, you can pretty much always upgrade your pets when you summon.) 7 hours ago, tidge said: don't think it would be game breaking to have MMs with only a single T1 henchmen have more offense at levels 1-5. baking in the offensive upgrades to the T1 is asymmetrical but this is such a short period of time when there already exist inexpensive asymmetries (cheap P2W boosts, etc) for low-level characters, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ And then lose those when the upgrade becomes available at level 6? Because that isn't the least bit arbitrary? Why would MM pets just lose any of their powers when you level up too high? And if you are instead saying to bake in the upgrade? Like has been said on this thread and every other MM thread calling for the upgrade powers to be automatically applied, that isn't going to happen or else it already would have. Edited February 15 by Rudra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EyesWideShut Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 MM Upgrade powers should be slottable and apply that effect to the pets, with bigger bonuses to the weaker minions. Want your pets to be more tanky? Add healing, res, or def to the power How about more damage? Recharge, Acc, Damage. Keeps in theme about upgrading and fielding upgrades for them; makes the powers worthy of taking slots, and would also solve the issue of the lower level ones falling off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudra Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 9 minutes ago, EyesWideShut said: MM Upgrade powers should be slottable and apply that effect to the pets, with bigger bonuses to the weaker minions. Want your pets to be more tanky? Add healing, res, or def to the power How about more damage? Recharge, Acc, Damage. Keeps in theme about upgrading and fielding upgrades for them; makes the powers worthy of taking slots, and would also solve the issue of the lower level ones falling off. Two questions: Would the weaker minions always be considered the weaker minions and get the better weaker minion buff even if you only have the 1 T1 pet at low levels? How would this affect incarnate content since all pets get sufficient levels added to them to make them all equal level to the incarnate shifted MM? (As long as they remain in Supremacy's radius of effect.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EyesWideShut Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 (edited) 34 minutes ago, Rudra said: Two questions: Would the weaker minions always be considered the weaker minions and get the better weaker minion buff even if you only have the 1 T1 pet at low levels? How would this affect incarnate content since all pets get sufficient levels added to them to make them all equal level to the incarnate shifted MM? (As long as they remain in Supremacy's radius of effect.) Lets use HP as an example. I don't have access to my MM at the moment so I'll use City of Data -- Correct me if I'm wrong. Note that these numbers are placeholders yada yada and can be changed and yada yada not final numbers. Boss Henchmen have 966.583 HP at level 51 LTs have 773.266 at 51 Minions have 579.95 at 51 In this case, we use our upgrade power that has +50% healing from whatever combination of IOs/set bonuses, etc just to make the calculations easier. We split the the amount provided by our enhancements into uneven thirds -- 50% of value, 30% of value, 20% of value, giving us +25%, +15%, and +10% for minions, lts, and bosses respectively. Minions go from 580 -> 725 (+145) LTs go from 773 -> 889 (+116) Bosses go from 997 -> 1097 (+100) It presents a bit of an interesting choice here -- Do you slot Defense or Resistance? Do you slot for more HP or more damage? How many slots do you dedicate to your equip powers? How does your secondary affect your options? Those with say, Force Fields, may opt for +Res into their powers, while Thermal may opt for +Def. You got two equips, so do you double down on one aspect, or do you try to even out the attributes? How about slot allocation? I think this would both present interesting opportunities, as your enhancement slotting would largely depend on what secondary you've chosen (and what the pets already provide themselves), while also boosting the power of MM pets in an interesting way to help keep up with higher powered threats. Edit: I realize that this didn't answer your first question. In order to make the coding behind this no more difficult than it needs to be, low level numbers could probably stay the same as high level ones. Enhancement bonuses are weaker at lower levels, and as such, while it'd still provide a boost, it shouldn't be overwhelmingly powerful -- And lower level MMs don't need extra help, as many have already noted in this thread that MMs are quite good levlers. Edit2: To answer the incarnate question more clearly: HP for level 53 minions: Minion: 583.28 Lt: 777.707 Boss: 972.134 The HP gains from the level shifts are *measly*. I'm not worried too much about the potential of level shifts with this system. Edited February 15 by EyesWideShut Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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