biostem Posted March 6 Posted March 6 3 minutes ago, nzer said: They're not moving the goalposts, your argument is genuinely fallacious. The original devs were not infallible, so you can't assume something being the way it is is concrete proof it was intended to be that way. Charitably, the disagreement is indeed just a difference of opinion. Sure they are - we went from discussing intent to discussing how you can disable XP when you couldn't before and such. The the other poster mentioned intent, and that's what I addressed. Who said the OG devs were infallible? They set the inf/XP earn rates and the enh costs. If you want to argue that was a miscalculation, that's fine. My argument is they had multiple years to adjust it and didn't. instead, they added the invention system with enh's that never expired...
biostem Posted March 6 Posted March 6 5 minutes ago, Super Atom said: None of the goal posts got moved, You argued intent. I countered it. End of story. Now provide PROOF that players were intended to be fully slotted from levels 20+...
Super Atom Posted March 6 Posted March 6 1 minute ago, biostem said: You argued intent. I countered it. End of story. Now provide PROOF that players were intended to be fully slotted from levels 20+... You already got proven wrong, i don't know what else you want other than arguing in circles to bump up your post count some more 1
Sunsette Posted March 6 Posted March 6 (edited) I do think the calls for improving drop tables are reasonable. I'm not sure it would be sufficient, but I think it'd be a strong step forward that can be re-examined. I'm not married to the particular idea of a price reduction as the solution to the problem -- but I think it's pretty well-established throughout this thread, if fragmented and in multiple places, that there is a problem. Original developer intent seems pretty irrelevant 20 years later with an adjusted XP table. I don't care to play originalism even in law, let alone in a gameplay experience. Edited March 6 by Sunsette 2 1 Sundered Marches: The Website | The Official Soundtrack! | The Campaign Setting!
Luminara Posted March 6 Posted March 6 7 minutes ago, biostem said: My source is the inf granted by defeats/mission completions vs the cost of DOs/SOs, as set by the OG devs. If they wanted you to be fully slotted at all times, (at least 20+), then they would have adjusted their costs or the rewards accordingly. Obviously they didn't do that, so their intent was that one NOT be fully slotted... Actually, their intent was for players to trade what they had for what they needed. If you needed a Magic Range enhancement, but all you had were Science and Natural drops, you were supposed to trade with your Science and Natural friends for their Magic enhancements. That design faltered badly when they released CoV, due to content bottlenecks which forced all players through specific content and left them incapable of trading for what they needed because no-one had it. They'd hoped that the Invention and player market systems would bridge the gap between origin-specific drops and player needs, but they built both around a hyper-inflated economy, not the economy they envisioned when they created the game, and just crossed their fingers and hoped it'd all take care of itself. And then they completely abandoned the original intent when they released Going Rogue, which changed to story-specific content instead of origin-specific content, which meant no-one had a good source for drops and trading was about as relevant as nipples are to a fish. And @Super Atom's point about the XP/inf* to level discrepancy has merit. Either the XP/inf* rewards were boosted or the XP/level requirements were reduced when the game went underground. On the original servers, we had to go through several story arcs or dozens of one-off missions to gain a level, whereas now, even at 1x XP, we can gain a full level with one or two missions. If the game didn't have IOs, we'd be out-leveling our own builds daily, every SO blood-red and screaming to be replaced. What used to take weeks, we do in hours now, and it's not power creep or muscle memory, it's how much XP we gain in relation to how much we need. Note that I'm not calling for an XP nerf, or an increase on required XP per level, just saying that this does exist and it does impact players who use SOs. 1 1 2 1 Get busy living... or get busy dying. That's goddamn right.
Super Atom Posted March 6 Posted March 6 to be honest, i do think making enhancements drop only for your origin is the better solution overall, it creates a nice balance of sell what you don't need buy what you're missing without modifying things too much. Though i still think in that same area, finishing a story arc should give you extra enhancement drops of your origin. 1
Lockely Posted March 6 Posted March 6 20 minutes ago, Super Atom said: again, this is a difference in opinion of intention. I believe not being able to afford SO's in your 30s is currently an oversight that was never adjusted with xp/inf rates. I would also ask, why on live could you fully complete one morality path(gold side) completely without disabling XP while you currently cannot on homecoming. (This does not include XP boosters). There are repeatable mission contacts that you used on live to reach the next step in the questlines that go completely unused due to a difference in base XP rates. Something doesn't quite add up. If the xp/inf rates were designed so carefully, why is it different on homecoming? On top of that, you can go into the Historical Discussions on the Paragon/Homecoming Wikis and see the XP rates were subtly changed over the years without corroborating patch notes or dev discussions. Entire tables were built and then invalidated without so much as a patch note. Things have definitely changed, maybe it was with the original SCORE code? But Inf income both passively from defeating enemies and active from selling unusable enhancements does not keep up with slotting as you level, let alone basic maintenance of existing slots. 1 1 Lockely's AE Tales: H: The Rook's Gambit (Arc ID 49351), P: Best Left Buried (WIP)
nzer Posted March 6 Posted March 6 4 minutes ago, biostem said: Sure they are - we went from discussing intent to discussing how you can disable XP when you couldn't before and such. The the other poster mentioned intent, and that's what I addressed. Who said the OG devs were infallible? They set the inf/XP earn rates and the enh costs. If you want to argue that was a miscalculation, that's fine. My argument is they had multiple years to adjust it and didn't. instead, they added the invention system with enh's that never expired... No, they're not. Their argument was that the devs intended for players to be able to fill their enhancement slots at level 20+, and that is still their argument. They categorically can't be moving the goalposts if their argument isn't changing. You're trying to use the fact that the devs set the rates and never changed them as evidence that all the results of those particular rates were intentional. That's a reasonable argument, but it's still just a supposition, because the original devs were not infallible. So it is also reasonable for someone to disagree with that based on other pieces of evidence, which is exactly what's happening. 1 1
Sunsette Posted March 6 Posted March 6 3 minutes ago, Super Atom said: Though i still think in that same area, finishing a story arc should give you extra enhancement drops of your origin. I think that would be a great idea which would help reinforce a feeling of value from mission arcs over grinding without significantly increasing the profitability of speed running short arcs in Ouro. I think City overvalues grinding in general but it's not an easy thing to fix in a good way. Sundered Marches: The Website | The Official Soundtrack! | The Campaign Setting!
biostem Posted March 6 Posted March 6 1 minute ago, nzer said: You're trying to use the fact that the devs set the rates and never changed them as evidence that all the results of those particular rates were intentional. That's a reasonable argument, but it's still just a supposition, because the original devs were not infallible. So it is also reasonable for someone to disagree with that based on other pieces of evidence, which is exactly what's happening. I never said the devs were infallible, so stop trying to position me like I did. What we do know is they had ample opportunity to adjust the inf/xp rates or TO/DO/SO costs, but never did. Evidence points to them being satisfied with said reward rates, which entails players not being able to fully slot their enhancements at all levels, full stop.
biostem Posted March 6 Posted March 6 10 minutes ago, Super Atom said: ou already got proven wrong, i don't know what else you want other than arguing in circles to bump up your post count some more Where's the proof? Demonstrate that the devs intend you to be fully slotted at levels 20+. You haven't... 1
Super Atom Posted March 6 Posted March 6 1 minute ago, biostem said: I never said the devs were infallible, so stop trying to position me like I did. What we do know is they had ample opportunity to adjust the inf/xp rates or TO/DO/SO costs, but never did. Evidence points to them being satisfied with said reward rates, which entails players not being able to fully slot their enhancements at all levels, full stop. Homecoming has repeatedly put themselves on display as 1) Time limited 2) volunteer based Them not making a change 100% does not mean they currently like and support how its going. This was a very very bad argument you just made. 1 minute ago, biostem said: Where's the proof? Demonstrate that the devs intend you to be fully slotted at levels 20+. You haven't... You already have everything you need if you just read what is posted. As i told you before, but i guess i'll make it big this time There is no more proof to my opinion, that the way the game was designed, being balanced around SO, suggests they intended for the player to be fully slotted by 30 then there is to your claim they didn't intend you to be slotted. It is my interpretation of intention given that level 30 is quite high in level and progress through the game. the difference is, I don't have very strong evidence that contradicts my opinion like your opinion has in XP/inf rates.
nzer Posted March 6 Posted March 6 2 minutes ago, biostem said: I never said the devs were infallible, so stop trying to position me like I did. What we do know is they had ample opportunity to adjust the inf/xp rates or TO/DO/SO costs, but never did. Evidence points to them being satisfied with said reward rates, which entails players not being able to fully slot their enhancements at all levels, full stop. I'm not saying you said the devs were infallible. I'm saying the argument you're making requires them to have been infallible, otherwise it's not a sound argument. 5 minutes ago, biostem said: Where's the proof? Demonstrate that the devs intend you to be fully slotted at levels 20+. You haven't... There are like four different comments immediately above this one demonstrating that your reasoning is unfounded. Where's your proof?
Lockely Posted March 6 Posted March 6 2 minutes ago, biostem said: Where's the proof? Demonstrate that the devs intend you to be fully slotted at levels 20+. You haven't... The very nature of the system and the extreme emphasis on enhancement slots, as well as forcing the players to go visit the origin vendors and have *lengthly discussions with them* to ensure they knew of their existence during the new 'tutorial' story arcs (Twinshot, Dr. Graves) is proof alone. If they didn't want the slots filled, they wouldn't provide them so often. The game is balanced around having *at least* TOs in them as you level. TOs are gone, so we must now discuss DOs/SOs. This is such a weird argument to be having over the intent of devs who don't even work on the game anymore and whose opinion no longer even matters. What matters is the new player experience in 2024, not climbing up the hill both ways barefoot in the snow back in 2006. 1 1 Lockely's AE Tales: H: The Rook's Gambit (Arc ID 49351), P: Best Left Buried (WIP)
Sunsette Posted March 6 Posted March 6 Can we cut out this sidebar? The last several posts on the intent discussion are basically the same points reiterated but more angrily, and it seems unlikely that a few more clarifying restatements are going to suddenly shift the conversation positively. I frankly don't care what old-dev intent was in the face of an obvious problem twenty years later anyway. Feel free to vent to me in private (or scream at me in PM, I guess, if I'm the other side of the argument here) but let's take it out of the thread. Sundered Marches: The Website | The Official Soundtrack! | The Campaign Setting!
biostem Posted March 6 Posted March 6 Just now, Super Atom said: Homecoming has repeatedly put themselves on display as 1) Time limited 2) volunteer based Them not making a change 100% does not mean they currently like and support how its going. This was a very very bad argument you just made. And it doesn't mean they don't like it, either. 1 minute ago, Super Atom said: There is no more proof to my opinion, that the way the game was designed, being balanced around SO, suggests they intended for the player to be fully slotted by 30 then there is to your claim they didn't intend you to be slotted. It is my interpretation of intention given that level 30 is quite high in level and progress through the game. The proof, as I already stated, is that they had many years to adjust the rewards or lower the prices to permit players to readily slot all their enh's, if that is what they wanted. They didn't therefore they didn't intend to do so. My position is based upon how the game is. You are positing something that has no basis in fact.
Super Atom Posted March 6 Posted March 6 Alright, now you're just refusing to be wrong and it's weird. I've lost interest as its derailing this thread to sooth your bruised ego. 1
biostem Posted March 6 Posted March 6 Just now, Lockely said: The very nature of the system and the extreme emphasis on enhancement slots, as well as forcing the players to go visit the origin vendors and have *lengthly discussions with them* to ensure they knew of their existence during the new 'tutorial' story arcs (Twinshot, Dr. Graves) is proof alone. That only proves that they want you to know where to get enh's, not that you should be fully slotted at all times, from level 20 on. 1 minute ago, Lockely said: If they didn't want the slots filled, they wouldn't provide them so often. The game is balanced around having *at least* TOs in them as you level. That's like saying you are supposed to take each and every power form your primary and secondary, because they provide them in the powersets, or because you can take 4 power pools means you should. 2 minutes ago, Lockely said: This is such a weird argument to be having over the intent of devs who don't even work on the game anymore and whose opinion no longer even matters. What matters is the new player experience in 2024, not climbing up the hill both ways barefoot in the snow back in 2006. Yeah... it's not like there are multiple guides on how to build wealth in-game or anything...
biostem Posted March 6 Posted March 6 1 minute ago, Super Atom said: Alright, now you're just refusing to be wrong and it's weird. I've lost interest as its derailing this thread to sooth your bruised ego. I.E. you can't defend your position and so have to resort to ad homs.
Super Atom Posted March 6 Posted March 6 Just now, biostem said: I.E. you can't defend your position and so have to resort to ad homs. My position was defended, supported and reposted about six times and you were just like "nope im right" with no further evidence or anything else. You also keep using the terrible argument of "they haven't done it yet so clearly its fine" which is literally proven false by every change they do make and will make. 1
biostem Posted March 6 Posted March 6 5 minutes ago, nzer said: I'm not saying you said the devs were infallible. I'm saying the argument you're making requires them to have been infallible, otherwise it's not a sound argument. Incorrect. It only requires that they have a reasonable sense of how the game that they created/worked on operates. If you want to counter that, I'm gonna need some actual proof. 6 minutes ago, nzer said: There are like four different comments immediately above this one demonstrating that your reasoning is unfounded. Where's your proof? My proof, for like the umpteenth time, is they could have adjusted the reward & enh cost rate many many times, but they didn't, so they must have been satisfied with them.
biostem Posted March 6 Posted March 6 Just now, Super Atom said: My position was defended, supported and reposted about six times and you were just like "nope im right" with no further evidence or anything else. You also keep using the terrible argument of "they haven't done it yet so clearly its fine" which is literally proven false by every change they do make and will make. You certainly voiced your opinion. Defended it? Not so much. Your claim that my argument is "terrible" doesn't make it so. Prove that the INTENT was to be fully slotted at all times after level 20. You haven't and you can't. As I've stated over and over again, they had ample opportunity to do so. Why didn't they, if that was their intent? If you are going to simply disregard the OG devs' intent, then why value any of their design decisions?
Super Atom Posted March 6 Posted March 6 Just now, biostem said: You certainly voiced your opinion. Defended it? Not so much. Your claim that my argument is "terrible" doesn't make it so. Prove that the INTENT was to be fully slotted at all times after level 20. You haven't and you can't. As I've stated over and over again, they had ample opportunity to do so. Why didn't they, if that was their intent? If you are going to simply disregard the OG devs' intent, then why value any of their design decisions? At this point, you're just derailing the thread while refusing to acknowledge the many posts from different people that have answered you and your claims. Either come back with an actual argument or feel satisfied with your very poor claim of "Well it hasn't happened yet so i win".
biostem Posted March 6 Posted March 6 Just now, Super Atom said: At this point, you're just derailing the thread while refusing to acknowledge the many posts from different people that have answered you and your claims. Either come back with an actual argument or feel satisfied with your very poor claim of "Well it hasn't happened yet so i win". Right back at ya! The OG devs intended players to earn a certain amount of inf per level/time and priced enh's with that in mind. You haven't countered that. I acknowledge that you and others have made claims. None of them have proof to back them up, though.
Rudra Posted March 6 Posted March 6 Something that those of you asking for the prices to come down keep overlooking is what, I think @Luminara, pointed out. The sale price versus the purchase price is a ratio. And if you reduce the purchase price, the sale price also goes down. So at best the situation stays as is, and at worse the situation gets worse because now it becomes even harder to afford things like IOs. I'm pretty sure a consensus can be reached by improving how often an enhancement of the correct origin drops for the character, though how high that rate should be will again find disagreement. Though if you want to focus on costs, maybe instead ask for the gap between sale price and purchase price to be narrowed. Though again, I still maintain that there is no need or game expectation for characters to be fully slotted until after they reach level 50.
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