Aggressively reduce price of basic enhancements

[Super Atom]

  On 3/6/2024 at 11:21 PM, biostem said:

If the SCORE devs upped the XP and inf rates, but didn't raise the price of SOs, then it should be easier to afford them.

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This is clearly not the case, as the above data has proven without any room for doubt.

 

  On 3/6/2024 at 11:22 PM, Sunsette said:

 

One thing I would like to add that keeps getting overlooked in conjunction with your costume point:

 

Players need a budget to make mistakes with. 

• "Golly, my sniper attack takes a long time. What if I slot interrupt? ... Oh. It doesn't affect animation speed."
• "I SIX SLOTTED RECHARGE WHY ISN'T IT GOING ANY FASTER"
• etc... etc... etc...

Forgiveness to make mistakes is one of the most essential ways to facilitate people learning and experimenting.

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Yeah, this was apart of my initial point a lot of pages ago. Giving new players room to explore the enhancement system doubles as giving them freedom to learn it easier. Cannot be stated enough how important it is to have that room for trial and error and learning.

[nzer]

  On 3/6/2024 at 11:21 PM, biostem said:

If the SCORE devs upped the XP and inf rates, but didn't raise the price of SOs, then it should be easier to afford them.

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That would only be the case if you couldn't level out of them. Because you can, whether they became more or less affordable depends on the ratio of the increases. If XP was increased more then inf gain, for example, they would become less affordable because you would level out of them more quickly.

[Luminara]

  On 3/6/2024 at 10:53 PM, Wolfboy1 said:

I wouldn't be opposed to also upping the inf that they do trickle down to us in missions and such.  It always was surprising that the end of mission reward for a full team quest/mission never gave anything that surpassed the 100k influence mark even at level 50...or at least I personally have never seen it.

 

The influence reward is...honestly anemic in my opinion.  Not sure if anyone else feels that way but again, thats my opinion.

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Inf* increases will never be on the table.  Or, at least, not in any way which would make purchasing SOs easier.  Even with the economy being merit-based, inf* is still a driving factor of that economy and subject to inflation.  Adding more inf* to the game more rapidly would create inflationary pressure, and that's not something the HC team is going to allow to happen.  They spent a couple of years actively working to set up controls on inflation, which have worked admirably, they're not going to reverse course.

[Super Atom]

It is worth mentioning apparently that, 25 > 26 is 85200xp so assuming you only kill minions, that is only 887 at the reported 96 xp. Keeping in mind, it is only 447 per SO purchase. So you would be able to buy TWO SO's with the entire 25-26 worth of influence and that's also assuming they have no patrol XP which is very unlikely these days.

[biostem]

  On 3/6/2024 at 11:24 PM, nzer said:

That would only be the case if you couldn't level out of them. Because you can, whether they became more or less affordable depends on the ratio of the increases. If XP was increased more then inf gain, for example, they would become less affordable because you would level out of them more quickly.

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Were inf gains upped?  Were SO prices raised or not?  Since the supply is infinite, they'd be easier to afford.  I have sympathy for new players who don't yet know the game's various systems and mechanics.  That being said, they have access to resources that may not have been available when the game was live.  It's not like they are hidden or anything.  At some point, that naivete has to be grown out of and the player has to learn.

[Lockely]

  On 3/6/2024 at 11:26 PM, Luminara said:

 

Inf* increases will never be on the table.  Or, at least, not in any way which would make purchasing SOs easier.  Even with the economy being merit-based, inf* is still a driving factor of that economy and subject to inflation.  Adding more inf* to the game more rapidly would create inflationary pressure, and that's not something the HC team is going to allow to happen.  They spent a couple of years actively working to set up controls on inflation, which have worked admirably, they're not going to reverse course.

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Really depends on how its implemented. Passive inf gains pre-50 wouldn't really cause a problem since once you hit 50 on your first character, you basically turn on a money fountain that never stops. I doubt people would be hardcore leveling characters in the pre-50 range for higher Inf gain. Especially when most of that money is getting removed into vendors anyway, not into the AH. And none of that is equivalent to a single merit converted into 3 Converters and sold on the AH.

All it does is help first timers with passive income to keep their slots up to date and play with their costume.

Edited March 6, 2024 by Lockely

[Rudra]

  On 3/6/2024 at 11:22 PM, Sunsette said:

  On 3/6/2024 at 11:18 PM, Super Atom said:

 even if you pretend a new player WOULDN'T constantly be messing with costume.

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One thing I would like to add that keeps getting overlooked in conjunction with your costume point:

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Which is why all tailor visits up to level 10 are free. So players can tweak, alter, or even completely replace their costumes at will until level 10.

[Super Atom]

  On 3/6/2024 at 11:39 PM, Rudra said:

Which is why all tailor visits up to level 10 are free. So players can tweak, alter, or even completely replace their costumes at will until level 10.

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Absolutely, but surely nobody thinks people stop making edits or new costumes at 10, right?

[Rudra]

  On 3/6/2024 at 11:39 PM, Super Atom said:

 

Absolutely, but surely nobody thinks people stop making edits or new costumes at 10, right?

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At level 10, the player should have already settled on what they want their character to look like and even get a free tailor token for having reached level 10. Plus another free tailor token at 20, 30, 40, and 50.

[Lockely]

  On 3/6/2024 at 11:39 PM, Super Atom said:

 

Absolutely, but surely nobody thinks people stop making edits or new costumes at 10, right?

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And there definitely wasn't a patch that just came out that reset every single costume with a beam rifle powerset to be 'invalid' and forces you to pay major costume change fees to fix it.

[biostem]

  On 3/6/2024 at 11:39 PM, Super Atom said:

Absolutely, but surely nobody thinks people stop making edits or new costumes at 10, right?

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And if you blow all your income on clothes IRL, whose fault is it when you can't buy food?  No one is saying that people stop tinkering with their looks past level 10, but at some point it's on the individual player to manage their in-game resources, no?

[biostem]

  On 3/6/2024 at 11:41 PM, Lockely said:

And there definitely wasn't a patch that just came out that reset every single costume with a beam rifle powerset to be 'invalid' and forces you to pay major costume change fees to fix it.

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Yeah that stinks.  If only there were some sort of free costume change tokens or ways to otherwise alleviate the cost of changing one's costume.  That being said, if the devs broke a thing, they should enact steps to make it up to players...

[Super Atom]

  On 3/6/2024 at 11:41 PM, Rudra said:

At level 10, the player should have already settled on what they want their character to look like and even get a free tailor token for having reached level 10. Plus another free tailor token at 20, 30, 40, and 50.

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I think this is a pretty unreasonable stance given a huge part of the game is fashion. While i do agree, with the benefit of knowing the costs it would be smart to settle on major changes pre-10, new players are unlikely to know this or fully comprehend just how bad the cost is given that SO's become completely useless faster than you cant even be 1/3rd slotted.

 

  On 3/6/2024 at 11:41 PM, biostem said:

And if you blow all your income on clothes IRL, whose fault is it when you can't buy food?  No one is saying that people stop tinkering with their looks past level 10, but at some point it's on the individual player to manage their in-game resources, no?

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I don't think comparing income to real life income issues is the gotcha you think it is, but i will avoid politics.

 

  On 3/6/2024 at 11:44 PM, biostem said:

Yeah that stinks.  If only there were some sort of free costume change tokens or ways to otherwise alleviate the cost of changing one's costume.  That being said, if the devs broke a thing, they should enact steps to make it up to players...

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see above

[biostem]

  On 3/6/2024 at 11:46 PM, Super Atom said:

I don't think comparing income to real life income issues is the gotcha you think it is, but i will avoid politics.

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My point is that one has to learn to manage their own resources.  Like it or hate it, them's the breaks.

 

  On 3/6/2024 at 11:46 PM, Super Atom said:

see above

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It's not about politics, it's about managing what you have and getting the most from that.  Good job disregarding my point about how the devs should compensate players if they broke something.

[Rudra]

  On 3/6/2024 at 11:46 PM, Super Atom said:

 

I think this is a pretty unreasonable stance given a huge part of the game is fashion. While i do agree, with the benefit of knowing the costs it would be smart to settle on major changes pre-10, new players are unlikely to know this or fully comprehend just how bad the cost is given that SO's become completely useless faster than you cant even be 1/3rd slotted.

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Getting infinite free costume changes for 9 whole levels plus 5 free costume change tokens isn't enough for people?! And as I have maintained this entire time, there is no need to be fully slotted with enhancements at all times, especially when talking about SOs.

 

Edit: And hey! There is even a popup that tells players IOs are available and what contact to see to learn about them. So now there shouldn't be any complaints about new players not being informed about IOs,

Edited March 6, 2024 by Rudra

[Lockely]

  On 3/6/2024 at 11:44 PM, biostem said:

Yeah that stinks.  If only there were some sort of free costume change tokens or ways to otherwise alleviate the cost of changing one's costume.  That being said, if the devs broke a thing, they should enact steps to make it up to players...

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I reported it on both Beta and Live bug report forums, but the dev doing the costume change updates has now retired from the team. So, we likely won't see a fix until someone new steps into that role. They're all volunteers.

[Super Atom]

  On 3/6/2024 at 11:48 PM, biostem said:

My point is that one has to learn to manage their own resources.  Like it or hate it, them's the breaks.

 

It's not about politics, it's about managing what you have and getting the most from that.  Good job disregarding my point about how the devs should compensate players if they broke something.

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Except, you're doing it again. You're completely ignoring the previous posts which have completely shut down your take about influence gain while leveling. The literal math was done for you and you still ignore that you are wrong.

 

Also, it would be politics to discuss the fine points of income equality and how people cannot afford things IRL even if they "manage their resources" which is a really disgusting stance you're trying to make btw

[biostem]

  On 3/6/2024 at 11:49 PM, Lockely said:

I reported it on both Beta and Live bug report forums, but the dev doing the costume change updates has now retired from the team. So, we likely won't see a fix until someone new steps into that role. They're all volunteers.

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I wonder how difficult, or to what extent, the devs can simply run a script that says "If player A has powerset B, issue X free costume change tokens, where X is the number of active costume slots they have".

[Crimsanotic]

  On 3/6/2024 at 11:41 PM, biostem said:

And if you blow all your income on clothes IRL, whose fault is it when you can't buy food?  No one is saying that people stop tinkering with their looks past level 10, but at some point it's on the individual player to manage their in-game resources, no?

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Too bad you need to buy clothes IRL if you want to go outside. But I digress. You might not remember, but I do. On my first character that I leveled back in 2004, I literally did not have a full suite of SOs until I was in my 40s, and that was with someone giving me a little bit of extra influence. Once I had a 50 the game began to fund itself. But telling a new player to essentially beat the game before they can actually have money to do anything is, I'll be honest, really stupid and a bad take.

[Rudra]

  On 3/6/2024 at 11:41 PM, Lockely said:

 

And there definitely wasn't a patch that just came out that reset every single costume with a beam rifle powerset to be 'invalid' and forces you to pay major costume change fees to fix it.

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I just checked my beam rifle character. Not invalid.  Not as a character running around or when I visited a tailor to check that possibility. So I'm not understanding this comment.

[biostem]

  On 3/6/2024 at 11:50 PM, Super Atom said:

Except, you're doing it again. You're completely ignoring the previous posts which have completely shut down your take about influence gain while leveling. The literal math was done for you and you still ignore that you are wrong.

 

Also, it would be politics to discuss the fine points of income equality and how people cannot afford things IRL even if they "manage their resources" which is a really disgusting stance you're trying to make btw

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Yawn.  If inf gain was increased but enh prices remain the same, are they more affordable or less?  Yes or no?  Also, "income equality" has nothing to do with "blowing all your income on clothes" - implicit in the phrasing is that you wasted the money, not that you bought out of necessity.  Getting back to the game - no one "needs" to constantly edit costumes.  I can certainly empathize with wanting just the perfect look for your character, but it all comes back to managing your resources.

[Super Atom]

  On 3/6/2024 at 11:56 PM, biostem said:

Yawn.  If inf gain was increased but enh prices remain the same, are they more affordable or less?  Yes or no?  Also, "income equality" has nothing to do with "blowing all your income on clothes" - implicit in the phrasing is that you wasted the money, not that you bought out of necessity.  Getting back to the game - no one "needs" to constantly edit costumes.  I can certainly empathize with wanting just the perfect look for your character, but it all comes back to managing your resources.

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The stance people shouldn't edit their costumes freely or experience the game with gear before they beat the game is a really dumb take to have, especially since once you're 50 that gear is no longer even what you should be chasing with your influence. We have things beyond SO's that require a ton of influence for them to grind and chase. Taking a stand at the garbage white quality vendor gear has to be the worst hill to die on after it was proven you literally -can't- afford it while leveling with any kind of reliability or without help from outside sources. There is no managing your resources the math does not agree with your stance at all.

Edited March 6, 2024 by Super Atom

[biostem]

  On 3/6/2024 at 11:51 PM, Crimsanotic said:

Too bad you need to buy clothes IRL if you want to go outside. But I digress. You might not remember, but I do. On my first character that I leveled back in 2004, I literally did not have a full suite of SOs until I was in my 40s, and that was with someone giving me a little bit of extra influence. Once I had a 50 the game began to fund itself. But telling a new player to essentially beat the game before they can actually have money to do anything is, I'll be honest, really stupid and a bad take.

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Maybe I should have been clearer.  The phrase "blowing all your income" or something to the effect means you WASTED it, not spent out of necessity.  Let me assure you - I highly doubt anyone playing CoH has to worry about making ends meet, and if you do, I'd gladly look over your books to see where cuts can be made.  I also do not think it is too much to ask new players to either forego slotting each and every power at all times/levels and/or to read one of the many guides on how to generate wealth in-game.

[biostem]

  On 3/6/2024 at 11:57 PM, Super Atom said:

The stance people shouldn't edit their costumes freely or experience the game with gear before they beat the game is a really dumb take to have, especially since once you're 50 that gear is no longer even what you should be chasing with your influence. We have things beyond SO's that require a ton of influence for them to grind and chase. Taking a stand at the garbage white quality vendor gear has to be the worst hill to die on after it was proven you literally -can't- afford it while leveling with any kind of reliability or without help from outside sources. There is no managing your resources the math does not agree with your stance at all.

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Game features/aspects have costs & benefits, and learning to manage them is every bit a part of the game as the costumes and powers.

[Super Atom]

  On 3/7/2024 at 12:00 AM, biostem said:

Maybe I should have been clearer.  The phrase "blowing all your income" or something to the effect means you WASTED it, not spent out of necessity.  Let me assure you - I highly doubt anyone playing CoH has to worry about making ends meet, and if you do, I'd gladly look over your books to see where cuts can be made.  I also do not think it is too much to ask new players to either forego slotting each and every power at all times/levels and/or to read one of the many guides on how to generate wealth in-game.

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It is too much to ask for garbage leveling gear. That is poor game design. You're basically saying two of the major functions of this game should be ignored during the bulk of the game. the leveling experience.

 

For the sake of keeping a GM out of the topic, I'm going to completely ignore and pretend i didn't see that books comment.