Pumpkin patch needs a severe nerf

[Shin Magmus]

4 minutes ago, TheSpiritFox said:

Putting hardmode mechanics on world bosses is a terrible design decision no matter how you slice it. Those things should stay in hardmode TFs only, so that people who have to face it have chosen to subject themselves to it. 

The entire tone of this post, and all your replies, is incredibly mean and written from some sort of very warped perspective that I'd love for you to elaborate on.  Giant Monsters were punching bags, and they were made harder across the entire game as a fix to this issue: yes, it was an issue.  However, after the buffs, many characters (such as my Ill/Traps) can still solo most GMs in about 3 minutes, less if I use Lore Pets and/or other pets.  That's just talking completely solo, which is an aberration and should be treated thusly.

 

With a team of about 5-6 random players and builds: GMs are very manageable even after the buffs.  With 9+ players in a league of any size: GMs go right back to being punching bags.  I see a LOT of people forming Leagues to go after... well... basically every GM in the game now.  I've GM-hunted relentlessly (across the full range of team sizes) over the past 2 weeks.  I can confidently say that a few enemies having one or two moves that could be called as "Hard Mode Mechanic" is NOT a "terrible design choice", as it adds one more minor step of engagement from the players.  It's unfortunate that one class might struggle more on one GM, but your blanket statements about the game aren't true objectively and really aren't even true subjectively if you ask the hundreds of players I've encountered in my GM teams.  It's very possible for about 16 random players to just swarm a GM like piranha and still kill it in less than 30s, with no trouble, even now.

[TheSpiritFox]

1 minute ago, ShinMagmus said:

The entire tone of this post, and all your replies, is incredibly mean and written from some sort of very warped perspective that I'd love for you to elaborate on.  Giant Monsters were punching bags, and they were made harder across the entire game as a fix to this issue: yes, it was an issue.  However, after the buffs, many characters (such as my Ill/Traps) can still solo most GMs in about 3 minutes, less if I use Lore Pets and/or other pets.  That's just talking completely solo, which is an aberration and should be treated thusly.

 

With a team of about 5-6 random players and builds: GMs are very manageable even after the buffs.  With 9+ players in a league of any size: GMs go right back to being punching bags.  I see a LOT of people forming Leagues to go after... well... basically every GM in the game now.  I've GM-hunted relentlessly (across the full range of team sizes) over the past 2 weeks.  I can confidently say that a few enemies having one or two moves that could be called as "Hard Mode Mechanic" is NOT a "terrible design choice", as it adds one more minor step of engagement from the players.  It's unfortunate that one class might struggle more on one GM, but your blanket statements about the game aren't true objectively and really aren't even true subjectively if you ask the hundreds of players I've encountered in my GM teams.  It's very possible for about 16 random players to just swarm a GM like piranha and still kill it in less than 30s, with no trouble, even now.

Its the perspective of someone who has more 50 masterminds than any 3 other ATs combined and who constantly watches my favorite AT get completely invalidated like we dont exist. 

[BlueDagger]

To be clear, they will always be loot pinatas. No matter how hard you make them, no matter how complex you design them, as long as the time spent matches the reward then they will be farmed like a loot pinata. MSR and Hami are prime examples. Mechanics are known for both fights to a clockwork level and full leagues execute flawlessly for massive rewards. 

 

GMs should be be engaging and fun for a group of 8-16+. Mechanics should discourage groups of less, but an auto-kill for not moving in a split second is not that.

[Shin Magmus]

1 minute ago, BlueDagger said:

To be clear, they will always be loot pinatas. No matter how hard you make them, no matter how complex you design them, as long as the time spent matches the reward then they will be farmed like a loot pinata. MSR and Hami are prime examples. Mechanics are known for both fights to a clockwork level and full leagues execute flawlessly for massive rewards. 

 

GMs should be be engaging and fun for a group of 8-16+. Mechanics should discourage groups of less, but an auto-kill for not moving in a split second is not that.

Yep, good thing it's not an auto kill on players though, just a kill over 4-10 seconds depending on your max hp, with plenty of time to move.  As for pets, the power should simply be coded to deal ABSOLUTELY reduced dmg to all pets just like Blue Fire on Apex set as a precedent.

[BlueDagger]

Just now, ShinMagmus said:

Yep, good thing it's not an auto kill on players though, just a kill over 4-10 seconds depending on your max hp, with plenty of time to move.  As for pets, the power should simply be coded to deal ABSOLUTELY reduced dmg to all pets just like Blue Fire on Apex set as a precedent.

I can 100% say that on my non-tank melee characters they die in under 2 seconds. By the time you noticed a tick of the damage it's too late. 

 

You can even get rezzed and you're dead before you float out of the AoE.

[Lockely]

7 minutes ago, BlueDagger said:

I can 100% say that on my non-tank melee characters they die in under 2 seconds. By the time you noticed a tick of the damage it's too late. 

 

You can even get rezzed and you're dead before you float out of the AoE.

 

Yeah, I second this experience. If I'm not playing my Brute I get imploded as quickly as I notice the patch going around. I just jetpack on everyone now and fly high enough to be above the sphere.

[Ukase]

So..um, I fought Eochai yesterday. I saw the red words "Pumpkin Patch". I just assumed Eochai planted some pumpkins. I might have taken damage. I don't recall. But, I was also not on a Mastermind. I do know my lore pets disappeared. Instantly. No idea from their specific cause of defeat. And they had a t-4 barrier, just 5 seconds prior. 

In the end, it didn't matter. I had thought I had just chosen (Polar Lights) a poor choice for lore pet. (Folks aren't really running The Really Hard Way anymore, and I only occasionally do a Hami, so I figure lore pets are now a choice I can make without worrying about getting the optimal dps out of them for a given task. 

It seems to me there should be some kind of fore-warning, kind of like there is in Apex when you fight battle maiden. Eochai drops some seeds on the ground, ya got 5 seconds to scoot before a giant jack-o-lantern eats you. Something like that. 

The patch seemed trivial to me, but I did just have barrier and there were heals being cast. I don't pay that much attention to my hp because other than the hard mode lady grey, it seldom gets touched. I don't recall my defense/resistance stats being bothered, but I wasn't paying attention. I'll have to take a closer look next time I want pumpkin pie. 

[Lockely]

25 minutes ago, ShinMagmus said:

The entire tone of this post, and all your replies, is incredibly mean and written from some sort of very warped perspective that I'd love for you to elaborate on.  Giant Monsters were punching bags, and they were made harder across the entire game as a fix to this issue: yes, it was an issue.  However, after the buffs, many characters (such as my Ill/Traps) can still solo most GMs in about 3 minutes, less if I use Lore Pets and/or other pets.  That's just talking completely solo, which is an aberration and should be treated thusly.

 

With a team of about 5-6 random players and builds: GMs are very manageable even after the buffs.  With 9+ players in a league of any size: GMs go right back to being punching bags.  I see a LOT of people forming Leagues to go after... well... basically every GM in the game now.  I've GM-hunted relentlessly (across the full range of team sizes) over the past 2 weeks.  I can confidently say that a few enemies having one or two moves that could be called as "Hard Mode Mechanic" is NOT a "terrible design choice", as it adds one more minor step of engagement from the players.  It's unfortunate that one class might struggle more on one GM, but your blanket statements about the game aren't true objectively and really aren't even true subjectively if you ask the hundreds of players I've encountered in my GM teams.  It's very possible for about 16 random players to just swarm a GM like piranha and still kill it in less than 30s, with no trouble, even now.

 

I get the anger a bit as an MM main. We're probably the most solo-friendly AT, but when it comes to team content our pets are made of newspaper and a prayer.

 

We've asked for buffs to their survivability and had the non-MM community tell us we don't need it. We've asked for improvements to resummon and rebuff our pets and been (reportedly) told by the devs¹ it is absolutely off the table. We're being left out of advanced mode content because the perception of the hardcore players (who are permeating it through the community) is that we bring nothing to the table and our pets are dead too often to even contribute proper DPS.

 

We need a little TLC and it's coming out as lashing out because constructive feedback has been shot down. If the AT won't be changed, then the encounters need to be. I think both could use a little bit of a touch-up, tbh.

^{1. I have not personally seen this response, but I have gotten enough people to say it that I believe it's out there somewhere.}

Edited March 12 by Lockely

[Dev Unitas]

A good portion of the GM rebalancing was my work, including Eochai, and I'm sorry that people have been having a hard time in this case. While Pumpkin Patch existed before the rebalancing, it went through a number of iterations during beta, and unfortunately (but not unexpectedly due to the nature of beta testing open-world content) not enough testing was done on the final iteration for us to hear this particular feedback sooner. The power will be looked at. No promises regarding specific changes, but it'll be looked at and some minor adjustments will likely be made.

 

In terms of where the new GM tuning is meant to sit, they're meant to have some teeth. A standard team shouldn't be surprised if ~1-3 players drop during the fight, depending on the GM. In this case, the patch is very lethal, yes, but it's also not particularly large. Recommended play to deal with it includes playing more spread out from your teammates to minimize losses. That said, I recognize the difficulties with Masterminds and other pet users. It will be taken into consideration.

[Lockely]

6 minutes ago, Dev Unitas said:

A good portion of the GM rebalancing was my work, including Eochai, and I'm sorry that people have been having a hard time in this case. While Pumpkin Patch existed before the rebalancing, it went through a number of iterations during beta, and unfortunately (but not unexpectedly due to the nature of beta testing open-world content) not enough testing was done on the final iteration for us to hear this particular feedback sooner. The power will be looked at. No promises regarding specific changes, but it'll be looked at and some minor adjustments will likely be made.

 

In terms of where the new GM tuning is meant to sit, they're meant to have some teeth. A standard team shouldn't be surprised if ~1-3 players drop during the fight, depending on the GM. In this case, the patch is very lethal, yes, but it's also not particularly large. Recommended play to deal with it includes playing more spread out from your teammates to minimize losses. That said, I recognize the difficulties with Masterminds and other pet users. It will be taken into consideration.

 

If you're taking a look at MM/pet difficulties in this case, can you also take a look at Lusca's tentacles? Nearly every time I fight her, even with my ranged bots, they just routinely all explode into a shower of parts several seconds after engaging. I spend more time re-summoning and re-buffing than I do fighting against Lusca.

[Dev Unitas]

Just now, Lockely said:

 

If you're taking a look at MM/pet difficulties in this case, can you also take a look at Lusca's tentacles? Nearly every time I fight her, even with my ranged bots, they just routinely all explode into a shower of parts several seconds after engaging. I spend more time re-summoning and re-buffing than I do fighting against Lusca.

 

Is this in the context of team play, or attempts to solo her?

[Lockely]

1 minute ago, Dev Unitas said:

 

Is this in the context of team play, or attempts to solo her?

Team play. I never solo GMs, I just join groups when they pop.

Brute/Tanker runs in and grabs the tentacle. I send in bots. Two to five seconds later my bots implode.

[Dev Unitas]

10 minutes ago, Krimson said:

To test something, you need to have something that can do the test. There's only limited feedback one can give from, "Welp, I can't solo it. Hope someone ELSE with a better build can."

Current solo difficulty across the board is WAI (unless there are some exceptions that are particularly easy to solo, still). Team testing was where we were lacking.

[lemming]

I haven't seen an issue yet, but I think it's been my scrapper, brute, tanker, widow, and blasters that either can take the hits, or move around enough.   Might have to check with my small number of MMs. 

[Dev Unitas]

Just now, Lockely said:

Team play. I never solo GMs, I just join groups when they pop.

Brute/Tanker runs in and grabs the tentacle. I send in bots. Two to five seconds later my bots implode.

Tentacle Smash is a cone, so positioning your bots appropriately will generally be a core focus for fighting Lusca. If that's proving much too difficult I can take another look at her damage, but the Tentacle Smash is correctly following formula last time I checked.

[Ukase]

40 minutes ago, Dev Unitas said:

not enough testing was done on the final iteration for us to hear this particular feedback sooner.

I'm sorry to hear this. I have no idea what's behind the scenes, particularly now with the license legitimizing yours and the rest of the devs' hard work. 
I'm someone who is obtuse more often than not. If I'm not looking specifically for it, I play it on Brainstorm the way I would play it on Excelsior. 

Historically, we've gotten some pop-ups making it known there was a need for testers. I specifically recall the request for a "stress test". 
Is there something I can test now that would be helpful? I can probably figuratively twist the arms of a half-dozen or so and try something out if that suits your purpose. But, I need something more definitive than "Test something on brainstorm" 

[lemming]

As someone who tried to get to testing more, but has a background in QA, there's a need for some more standardized testing.   It's a lot of adhoc with targetted testing.    If on the discord, there are calls for scheduled team content which helps a lot, but depends on scheduling.

 

And this release was huge with a lot of different moving parts which couldn't really be helped since there were outside contingencies which are a part of the whole volunteer roles of everyone.

 

I think a document listing the changes and what parts should be checked is a good start, but often "Just play some content on brainstorm" is needed to catch the unintended consequences where you poke at something in one place, and it breaks something elsewhere.   Pretty sure that's how Serpent Drummer's mission snuck thru, since I doubt anyone ran thru that on Alpha or Beta testing because as far as anyone knew, nothing directly changed.

[Indystruck]

I was getting hit by this on my squishy defender and I was a little under the weather, and I had enough time to:
 

1. Slowly process what was going on (me being hit for lots of damage)
2. Look down at where my hands were on the keyboard
3. Simply move

So hearing people get squished harder sounds a lot like you just straight didn't notice what was happening.

[Lockely]

7 minutes ago, Dev Unitas said:

Tentacle Smash is a cone, so positioning your bots appropriately will generally be a core focus for fighting Lusca. If that's proving much too difficult I can take another look at her damage, but the Tentacle Smash is correctly following formula last time I checked.

It's difficult to position when you can't determine which of the melee are fighting for aggro/taunting and where the initial point of the cone (or the width/radius of it is) without a telegraph of some sort. Many GM parties I've been in just say "stay away from the boss entirely if you aren't tanky or you're going to get smashed" to new players asking for tips. My preference to avoid a lot of this is flight/group fly, but as stated here and in another thread, that often gets us yelled at/booted from the group if we don't disable it on anything not named Hamidon.

I'm sure the water makes it difficult to even add a ground tell to give a second or so advanced notice of where the tentacle is actually aimed. Maybe a small bubbling effect would be doable?

[Dev Unitas]

5 hours ago, Lockely said:

It's difficult to position when you can't determine which of the melee are fighting for aggro/taunting and where the initial point of the cone (or the width/radius of it is) without a telegraph of some sort. Many GM parties I've been in just say "stay away from the boss entirely if you aren't tanky or you're going to get smashed" to new players asking for tips. My preference to avoid a lot of this is flight/group fly, but as stated here and in another thread, that often gets us yelled at/booted from the group if we don't disable it on anything not named Hamidon.

I'm sure the water makes it difficult to even add a ground tell to give a second or so advanced notice of where the tentacle is actually aimed. Maybe a small bubbling effect would be doable?

 

After assessing the power with my co-devs, I'd say Tentacle Smash is WAI in terms of how hard it's hitting and its general behaviour. In this case, the tank of the team should be facing the tentacles away, communicating that they're the tank, and people who are going to complain about group fly should have it disabled via Null (and that's their fault if they haven't).

 

From what information you've given me there's also the possibility that the issues you're having are actually to do with Lusca's head shooting ink (which was retuned during the GM sweep), not the tentacles, could you clarify if that is being considered?

[Dev Unitas]

Separately from the Lusca stuff I wanted to confirm that the damage ticks for the Pumpkin Patch will be getting a minor reduction for players and significant reduction for pets in an upcoming patch.

[Sunsette]

4 minutes ago, Dev Unitas said:

Separately from the Lusca stuff I wanted to confirm that the damage ticks for the Pumpkin Patch will be getting a minor reduction for players and significant reduction for pets in an upcoming patch.

 

Appreciate your openness to input, clarity about the fact that you would look into it whatever the result, and the information about steps that ended up being taken. It's very nice to see. Thank you. 

[Lockely]

4 hours ago, Dev Unitas said:

 

After assessing the power with my co-devs, I'd say Tentacle Smash is WAI in terms of how hard it's hitting and its general behaviour. In this case, the tank of the team should be facing the tentacles away, communicating that they're the tank, and people who are going to complain about group fly should have it disabled via Null (and that's their fault if they haven't).

 

From what information you've given me there's also the possibility that the issues you're having are actually to do with Lusca's head shooting ink (which was retuned during the GM sweep), not the tentacles, could you clarify if that is being considered?

 

It's possible, A lot of times I'm flying above my bots without Group Fly and I'm not seeing exactly what is nuking them, only they're there literally one second and gone the next very shortly after engaging. There's often so much going on that it's very hard to tell what effects are coming from the boss vs players. I am targeting *only* the tentacles though and I keep the bots on Defensive. I usually never have any trouble once we get to the head option.

I will say that on Everlasting at least, the coordination for taking down Lusca is very often "[LFG] Lusca is up in IP, who wants to go beat up a big octopus?" and then people pile into the zone and just join a league. A scant few words are shared for newcomers and then we just take her down one tentacle at a time with basically "Here" or "Same" being the only communication at that point forward.

If you consider the fight working as intended, then it is what it is and I'll have to be content spending most of that GM simply resummoning and popping blues while everyone else actually gets to fight, as I simply cannot control the direction my PUG tank is going to aim it and I don't have a telegraph to react to, and my bots clearly cannot tank it for us. Thanks for looking into it!

[Dev Unitas]

24 minutes ago, Lockely said:

I will say that on Everlasting at least, the coordination for taking down Lusca is very often "[LFG] Lusca is up in IP, who wants to go beat up a big octopus?" and then people pile into the zone and just join a league. A scant few words are shared for newcomers and then we just take her down one tentacle at a time with basically "Here" or "Same" being the only communication at that point forward.

As someone else who plays on Everlasting predominantly, while that definitely does happen, it's not the only way it can happen, even in PUGs, and individuals in groups should encourage the selection of a specific tank, who players pay attention to the direction of.

 

Regarding MMs on a more general level, I can't say anything regarding hypothetical changes to them because I'm simply not a Powers Dev, it's not the area I work in. I can say that we are aware of their particular set of issues, though.

[Shin Magmus]

1 hour ago, Dev Unitas said:

As someone else who plays on Everlasting predominantly, while that definitely does happen, it's not the only way it can happen, even in PUGs, and individuals in groups should encourage the selection of a specific tank, who players pay attention to the direction of.

 

Regarding MMs on a more general level, I can't say anything regarding hypothetical changes to them because I'm simply not a Powers Dev, it's not the area I work in. I can say that we are aware of their particular set of issues, though.

I appreciate your work on the GMs.  I also play on Everlasting, but I don't GM Hunt on a random character who is subject to the rules of what the enemy does.  Instead, I GM Hunt on my Ill/Traps where I play by a set of unfair rules that greatly disincentivize even having something like a Tank, because they'll just overlap with my Phantom Army and be subject to taking dmg (pointlessly).  I'm sure that with a more evenly balanced (or random) mix of ATs, it might be necessary to strategize like you mean and aim the Tentacle Cone for example.  I definitely think that such strategies are cool in theory and appreciate the work you did on the fights.  But anecdotally... I can power through and ignore the mechanics of almost every GM this patch and only have to respect 2 or attacks in any way (such as Paladin's Coil Drain, which I dodge).  Even the Arachnos Flyer, which should be VERY difficult for Illu Control because of the swarm of adds, was not hard for me to solo.  I haven't even finished my Incarnates all to T4 yet, nor are they truly optimized for DPS, because I still play the character on some other content.  Here is a recent video of a GM that people maybe don't fight as often, Deathsurge:

 

I am glad you're listening to the player feedback and nerfing Pumpkin Patch in relation to MM pets, and I'm glad that multiple people are getting what they want.  However, I just want to make it known that against the power level of players with optimized builds... GMs are still too easy.  What I personally think after hunting every GM inn the game multiple times over the past 2 weeks... I think GMs need to be buffed even more both offensively and defensively.  Several of them should also have Hamidon-esque properties where they can damage Phantom Army directly or do something like forcefully phase out a Player, thus truly requiring teamwork from multiple players.  It's my opinion that the ability to casually solo almost every GM in about 3 minutes still, means they have not been tuned upwards harshly enough.  Is that a consensus among all players and all devs: certainly not!  Yet, I feel my video speaks for itself.