It is Memes

[venetiasilver]

"Plays STJ / Regen Scrap" Decent Sets in... "This is going fine. I'm level 34 doing okay damage" Proceed to do missions. "Paragon Protector shows up its purple, Energy Melee" "Deletes me"

[biostem]

Have you tried... not being /regen?  🤔

[venetiasilver]

Just now, biostem said:

Have you tried... not being /regen?  🤔

It hurts.
I just like how its one toggle and buttons but if you don't have the buttons you dead.

[biostem]

3 minutes ago, venetiasilver said:

It hurts.
I just like how its one toggle and buttons but if you don't have the buttons you dead.

I hear ya.  If it's any consolation, the sentinel version of regen is actually pretty good.

[venetiasilver]

6 minutes ago, biostem said:

I hear ya.  If it's any consolation, the sentinel version of regen is actually pretty good.

I know the mythological rework to Regen is 2039 
It's just sad to see such a binary set.

[biostem]

Just now, venetiasilver said:

It's just sad to see such a binary set.

For melee ATs, yeah - if incoming damage > regen rate, you lose, otherwise you win.  That being said, it does benefit greatly from stacking other forms of mitigation, but that's still of little comfort given that requires investing multiple power picks or spending lots of inf on set bonuses...

[PeregrineFalcon]

27 minutes ago, venetiasilver said:

I know the mythological rework to Regen is 2039 
It's just sad to see such a binary set.

Willpower is my go to powerset for Scrappers. It's basically "We fixed Regen and then gave it a different name so that people wouldn't light the forms on fire when we burnt down 9 cottages."

 

Try it. It works really well.

[venetiasilver]

11 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Willpower is my go to powerset for Scrappers. It's basically "We fixed Regen and then gave it a different name so that people wouldn't light the forms on fire when we burnt down 9 cottages."

 

Try it. It works really well.

For a total passive based armor set I'd rather pick invuln, I like the idea of "Active Tools" in an armor set. 

[nihilii]

49 minutes ago, venetiasilver said:

I know the mythological rework to Regen is 2039 
It's just sad to see such a binary set.

 

I kinda hate that we have to wait for these significant revamps, often completely changing the feel of the set.
When a few numbers tweak would likely do the trick.

i.e.

Imagine /regen with:

- 30s base recharge on Reconstruction rather than 60s. Fastest recharging selfheal. Addresses the "if you don't have any buttons you're dead"

- fully enhanceable regeneration on Integration and IH, rather than 2/3rd. No reason for this awkward 2/3rd in this day and age.

- increase Moment of Glory duration from 15s to 20s. This makes up for the very long 3s animation.

Those changes would be simple variable tweaks. 10 minutes job in the codebase. The actual hard work would be to playtest it conclusively.
I bet this would already make /regen feel a lot better.

Maybe not perfect. I'm somewhat conservative with the changes because I went for the things that truly could be done in a snap. But I think it could change so much already.

[biostem]

17 minutes ago, nihilii said:

I kinda hate that we have to wait for these significant revamps, often completely changing the feel of the set.
When a few numbers tweak would likely do the trick.

i.e.

Imagine /regen with:

- 30s base recharge on Reconstruction rather than 60s. Fastest recharging selfheal. Addresses the "if you don't have any buttons you're dead"

- fully enhanceable regeneration on Integration and IH, rather than 2/3rd. No reason for this awkward 2/3rd in this day and age.

- increase Moment of Glory duration from 15s to 20s. This makes up for the very long 3s animation.

TBH, I don't think that is enough.  I think you need the absorb like sentinels get and permanent extra HP to increase the threshold before you are defeated.  Further, maybe you need something like a potent self heal that automatically kicks in when you get low in health.

[nihilii]

See, I'm not even saying that is enough. I'm saying: here's the hyperconservative tweaks we could roll out by the next day to playtest, gather data, watch the results, then eventually push live or tweak further, and so on. Rather than put off a big rework somewhere in the far future. I would 100% bet those changes would not make /regen overpowered.

[Errants]

So, here's the query:

/Regeneration wants MASSIVE +Recharge, plus some sort of secondary mitigation...

Which primary(s) is the best option for that?

Discuss?

[Errants]

My thoughts...

 

Battle Axe	Benefits from high Recharge, has some soft control through KU/D
Broad Sword	Parry for +Def, not much else.
Claws	LOVES stupid amounts of Recharge, minimal KD/B
Dark Melee	-ToHit and supplemental healing synergy
Dual Blades	Claws, but less mitigation - Also, Combo gimmick for set, which is entirely ignored on the tuned DPS chain
Electric Melee	Minimal mitigation, and likes large mobs... which seems less than ideal for Regen
Energy Melee	Soft control through stuns, huge DPS potential with Recharge
Fiery Melee	No mitigation, and no extra damage over other sets...
Ice Melee	Ice Slick, passive mitigation through slows
Katana	Parr...Divine Avalanche for +Def, likes +Recharge better than Broadsword due to DPA of attacks
Kinetic Melee	-Dam passive mitigation, boost power likes Recharge but still can't be perma'd
Martial Arts	Soft Controls - Stun, KD/B - only one AoE, so doesn't thrive on being surrounded
Psionic Melee	Mix of soft controls (Stun and KU) with hard controls (Hold/Confuse+)
Radiation Melee	Stun in top attacks - wants to be surrounded for AoE/Aura
Savage Melee	Actually gives Recharge with Blood Thirst stacks, but only some soft control with KD
Spines	KD in Ripper, passive mitigation through slows - wants to be surrounded for AoE/Aura
Staff Fighting	Form of the Mind for Recharge, a Stun, +Def Power, and a mix of KD/U - many AoE's and feels like it spreads to thin to be focused
Stone Melee	Hold, Stun, KB/U, high DPA attacks with long timers also craving moar Recharge
Street Justice	Stun and KD/U, high DPA attacks which would like QR and Recharge
Titan Weapons	+Def, high DPA in Momentum - Momentum window can and will get screwed by Regen clicks
War Mace	Stun and KD/U - would rather play with Nrg to be strong and pretty

Edited March 21 by Errants

[nihilii]

I'd guess Axe is a good fit because can you ever go wrong with Axe? Cyclone's pull + pace of KDs that were clearly balanced for older lengthier animations makes for things flipflopping around all the time, much needed breathing room for Regen. The lack of special mechanics forcing a certain playstyle (combos, Follow Up/Blinding Feint, gives you maximum flexibility to use Regen clicks at a moment's notice, then resume your murdering arresting with no performance loss.

[Haijinx]

On 3/20/2024 at 7:21 PM, venetiasilver said:

I know the mythological rework to Regen is 2039 
It's just sad to see such a binary set.

Nerf Regen

[BrandX]

On 3/20/2024 at 11:22 PM, Errants said:

My thoughts...

 

Battle Axe	Benefits from high Recharge, has some soft control through KU/D
Broad Sword	Parry for +Def, not much else.
Claws	LOVES stupid amounts of Recharge, minimal KD/B
Dark Melee	-ToHit and supplemental healing synergy
Dual Blades	Claws, but less mitigation - Also, Combo gimmick for set, which is entirely ignored on the tuned DPS chain
Electric Melee	Minimal mitigation, and likes large mobs... which seems less than ideal for Regen
Energy Melee	Soft control through stuns, huge DPS potential with Recharge
Fiery Melee	No mitigation, and no extra damage over other sets...
Ice Melee	Ice Slick, passive mitigation through slows
Katana	Parr...Divine Avalanche for +Def, likes +Recharge better than Broadsword due to DPA of attacks
Kinetic Melee	-Dam passive mitigation, boost power likes Recharge but still can't be perma'd
Martial Arts	Soft Controls - Stun, KD/B - only one AoE, so doesn't thrive on being surrounded
Psionic Melee	Mix of soft controls (Stun and KU) with hard controls (Hold/Confuse+)
Radiation Melee	Stun in top attacks - wants to be surrounded for AoE/Aura
Savage Melee	Actually gives Recharge with Blood Thirst stacks, but only some soft control with KD
Spines	KD in Ripper, passive mitigation through slows - wants to be surrounded for AoE/Aura
Staff Fighting	Form of the Mind for Recharge, a Stun, +Def Power, and a mix of KD/U - many AoE's and feels like it spreads to thin to be focused
Stone Melee	Hold, Stun, KB/U, high DPA attacks with long timers also craving moar Recharge
Street Justice	Stun and KD/U, high DPA attacks which would like QR and Recharge
Titan Weapons	+Def, high DPA in Momentum - Momentum window can and will get screwed by Regen clicks
War Mace	Stun and KD/U - would rather play with Nrg to be strong and pretty

 

Form Staff Fighting and Regeneration, I wouldn't go Form of the Mind.

 

Form of the Body offers more damage AND +Resist.  That almost 10% Resist, imo, helps you more.

[Errants]

8 hours ago, BrandX said:

Form Staff Fighting and Regeneration, I wouldn't go Form of the Mind.

Form of the Body offers more damage AND +Resist.  That almost 10% Resist, imo, helps you more.

 

Can't perma it, and expends the +Damage stacks. Staff almost perversely works better if you stay at max stacks and don't expend them...

Hence, best use, IMO, is Mind for +Recharge. Again, Staff feels as though it is trying to be too much, and winds up spread too thin as a result.

Edited March 25 by Errants

[bAss_ackwards]

On 3/20/2024 at 4:04 PM, venetiasilver said:

"Plays STJ / Regen Scrap" Decent Sets in... "This is going fine. I'm level 34 doing okay damage" Proceed to do missions. "Paragon Protector shows up its purple, Energy Melee" "Deletes me"

 

 Regen is a good meme. Don't let anyone say otherwise. 😤

 

Immortal Engine - Scrapper (Katana - Regeneration) 02.mbd

Edited March 25 by bAss_ackwards

[Errants]

Oh, I know... Mained one for years. Kat/Regen/Soul as well... Have since found others that I didn't have to fight the secondary to get performance out of.

[BrandX]

On 3/24/2024 at 6:43 PM, Errants said:

 

Can't perma it, and expends the +Damage stacks. Staff almost perversely works better if you stay at max stacks and don't expend them...

Hence, best use, IMO, is Mind for +Recharge. Again, Staff feels as though it is trying to be too much, and winds up spread too thin as a result.

 

I kept the +Resist buff up on my Stalker, I don't see why it wouldn't stay up on a Scrapper.  It lasts for 10 seconds I believe.  And yes, you're building up +DMG with the Procs, but I don't see why you'd want to keep them.  Three combo levels into Sky Splitter gives you +Resist and extra damage to Sky Splitter.  Then you build the +DMG stacks again.  The idea tho is to keep the +Resist going.

Yes, Mind gives the +Recharge, but just like the +Damage, you're going to keep resetting it when you use Eye of the Storm or Sky Splitter.

 

Could get the +Recharge from a Force Feedback Proc in Serpents Reach

[Nemu]

On 3/24/2024 at 12:35 PM, BrandX said:

Form of the Body offers more damage AND +Resist.  That almost 10% Resist, imo, helps you more.

 

On 3/24/2024 at 8:43 PM, Errants said:

Hence, best use, IMO, is Mind for +Recharge. Again, Staff feels as though it is trying to be too much, and winds up spread too thin as a result.

 

I take soul to sustain whirlwind.

 

IMO these are the top candidates in no particular order for regen, and what they have in common:

Ice melee - ice patch

Stone melee - fault/tremor rotation

Electric melee - Thunderstrike/lightning clap rotation

 

Regen does fine against single target. It's overwhelming odds (and debuffs) that kill regen. AoE damage and AoE mitigation (I prefer pbaoes and not cones) allows regen to survive. Staff has AoE damage, and a +def spam that's also an AoE, soul allows you to supplement that with AoE mitigation via whirlwind in addition to eye of the storm. While whirlwind kd proc chance is drastically lower than KB, these combination of synergies pushes Staff/Regen above Axe in my opinion. The fact that most of these KD powers on that list also support force feedback procs further synergizes with regen build goals.

[OdinAZ]

On 3/24/2024 at 8:43 PM, Errants said:

 

Staff almost perversely works better if you stay at max stacks and don't expend them

 

I... had not considered this.  I was looking at making a Staff/WP, but I can see what you mean.  Does it really hurt your overall Damage?

[Errants]

1 hour ago, OdinAZ said:

I... had not considered this.  I was looking at making a Staff/WP, but I can see what you mean.  Does it really hurt your overall Damage?

I haven't ran numbers, but I've adopted this stance on my Staff/SR Stalker (locked into Body). I don't have Sky Splitter due to the DPA (same as Serpent's Reach and worse than Precise Strike), and so only expend stacks when I use the PBAoE.

Seems to work fantastically. Granted, on a Stalker, I have AS to supplement on ST damage.

[Errants]

Granted, I've just rolled a Staff/Stone Scrapper, so I get to see what it is like, again...

[flyingpcp]

I'm fine with there being meme powersets in the game, but "just outheal the damage bro lolol" is never going to work in this game as a power set concept. Empathy only works because of the one power that isn't that.