Sell me on Sentinels

[marcussmythe]

Conceptually, I love the idea.

 

Math-wise, I always appreciate balanced characters that can perform multiple roles - and they fit the comic book ideals.

 

But the Sentinel... as much as I love the idea... what I am hearing amounts to...

 

1.)  Less damage that a scrapper (people are reporting defender like performance?)

2.)  Weaker than Scrapper secondaries applied to a Blasters tiny hit point total

3.)  Reduced range as compared to a blaster

4.)  Near-zero value 'special ability'

 

So, whats the juice to go with the squeeze?  Innate mez prot?  Some defense and resistance?  What does it give you that a Peacebringer does not?

 

I mean, dont get me wrong, Ive got a fire/fire concept Sentinel that I'm enjoying - but Im curious if the long term play value is worth it, or if its a 'more fun than good' character.

[Burnt Toast]

Sentinels to me are a combo of blaster/scrappers (blappers). With their inherent power they do good damage imo. As far as resistance/defense goes... I don't mess with resistance on a lot of toons...usually defense. All of my Sentinels have capped defense without having to resort to weird powers or diminished abilities (acc/dam/end/rech).

 

What do they bring? Survivability and damage. I can stay in the background and blast away and let the Defenders and Controllers worry about my squishier cousin the blaster.

 

I looked at fire/fire Sentinels but meh not my cup of tea... I have:

Fire/Super Reflexes

Energy/Energy

Sonic/Ninjitsu

Ice/Ice

 

As for the damage they are JUST below Blasters and like I said with the inherent they have you can put out some very good damage.

 

I would definitely encourage you to try one... but would push you to try a defense secondary.

[marcussmythe]

Theres a solid argument to be made for 'if only one of def/res, go def'.  Much, much easier to get defense up to the place where it really matters than resist.

 

Hmm.  Id hate to reroll him, but hes only like lvl 10.  Which is like not rerolling at all...

[Burnt Toast]

Double xp on two newe servers until Wednesday.. level 10  easily done in 30-45 mins in sewers.

 

 

I highly recommend Ninjitsu.

[marcussmythe]

Ninjitsu over SR due to greater utility, and SR/Ninjitsu over Energy because Positional Defenses are easier/better than typed defenses?

[Novacat]

1.)  Less damage that a scrapper (people are reporting defender like performance?)

2.)  Weaker than Scrapper secondaries applied to a Blasters tiny hit point total

3.)  Reduced range as compared to a blaster

4.)  Near-zero value 'special ability'

 

1- The Sentinel appears to have 0.95 multipliers where Blaster/Scrapper have 1.125 for range/melee respectively.

  Sentinel damage thus comes a smidgen above that of a SOLO defender - it is important to remember Defenders get a damage buff when alone which lowers as teammates get added which makes the numbers seem closer at first glance. That said, Sentinels don't get Build-Up or other such goodies.

 

2- Slightly lower, but this is correct. We're looking at 17.5% where a Scrapper would get 18.75%

 

3- That's quite significant. Ball Lightning for example has 40ft, and Sentinels do not have Snipes at all - their snipe powers are instead replaced by a 60ft non-snipe version, so basically a second 'tier 3'. This isn't a bad power since its activation time is usually around Tier 1 (just like snipes with their interrupt portion canceled out by accuracy), but there's no doubt that range here is a QoL affair meant to keep a Sentinel from needing the finer placement of Scrapper AoEs. On that note, their AoE ARE wider by a good margin, being blaster and not scrapper primaries.

 

4- Yeah honestly it doesn't seem to be doing all that much. It's no Defiance, and it's most definitely not Criticals.

 

Overall, Sentinels need a bit of work. But they're not unviable even as they are.

This Archetype is best played as they are by those who would like some wider area coverage on their Scrapper, in exchange for a tiny bit of survivability. Focus heavily on the AoEs to make up for your lower damage - if you thought your Thorns scrapper was not quite crowd-clearing enough perhaps your Water Blast scrapper will fill that void.

[SenpaiEdgelod]

I'm not sold on them either.  The big thing that Blasters have over every other ranged class is the stacking buffs they get from defiance.

 

I agree with the philosophy of Defense over Resist, but when taking a defensive powerset, I'd always go with a Resist set, and pool/bonus into Defenses.

 

With this thought process in mind, the disconnect I'm having with the Sentinel is why do I need these defenses, if I could be a Blaster and managed the +Defense from things like Scorpion Shield, Fighting, and IO sets? 

 

I guess the argument could be made that taking Super Reflexes and Ninjitsu eliminates the need to take the Fighting Pool, but I fee like you're giving up the option of additional damage and utility, just so you can free up one pool spot and/or ancillary pool.

 

Maybe Sentinels are a PvP play. 

 

 

[Novacat]

I'd say there's two reasons why you need the defenses.

 

1) If you were a blaster you'd still be too squishy: experts and masters of the class and its statistics worried that the buffs to other ATs - even quality-of-life ones - were going to overtake the i24 blaster changes and prevent it from fully reaching... the median performance. In other words it was likely still going to be a bit too squishy to reach the middle of the pack.

 

2) Sentinels do NOT hit as hard as blasters do. Or scrappers for that matter. So getting high teens low 20s on most defenses and resists just from the powers alone pre-IOs is important due to there being, guaranteed, more return-fire than for blasters.

 

Opportunity, I can finally confirm, does a 5% drop in def/res on targets as soon as the sentinel's hit them, but it's once per sentinel. So it does give the whole team a tiny bit more damage and accuracy if you've at least bothered to toss a lightning-ball their way.

[SenpaiEdgelod]

I'm still not able to get past the idea that once you have IOs slotted, you'll get better performance out of a Blaster.  Softcapping Defense to Ranged attacks is pretty easy with use of IOs.  And, really, that's what my prospective hinges on, the idea that ultimately, IOs will be used. 

 

Of course, this also depends on how you're playing the game.  If you're soloing, then Sentinel is absolutely the way to go.  Blasters can slot into defense, but you'd probably end up with more reliability with not as much effort through a Sentinel. 

 

However, if you're teaming, I think the Blaster has the clear edge.  You're not going to get the bang for your buck from the defense secondaries, if you have a half decent tank soaking up the hits.  If you're a Blaster, and you're in the fray, you're either a Blaster, or you're standing too close. 

 

There's probably a few other ways you could slice this to show how one could have the edge over the other.  Personally, if I'm playing in PvE, and I need an entire secondary dedicated to defenses, I'd be inclined to just roll a Scrapper or a Brute. 

 

This is all speaking mechanically, from a min/max prospective, of course.  There is no substitution for concept builds. 

[Burnt Toast]

The "concept" is actually a preferred playstyle. I don't want to be a scrapper and have to be in melee. I do want the protection of a defensive secondary though.

Yes Blasters put out more damage, BUT they require quite a bit of influence to be that uber leet farming blaster who rarely dies.

I played 8 years and only had 1 blaster to 50... Fire/Psi. All th eother ones even with lots of IOs felt way too squishy to ne.

 

I think you are confused on what a min/maxer is. Min/maxing is taking the AT and powersets and maximizing those... it does not mean this character is better than that character because it produces more damage. If that were the case true min/maxers would probably only play scrappers.

 

Min/Maxing is something you do for every AT and powerset - trying to make a combo the best it can be... regardless of damage/time.

 

The true art of min/maxing is taking a combo and finding a way to make it work...the best it can.

 

I'm still not able to get past the idea that once you have IOs slotted, you'll get better performance out of a Blaster.  Softcapping Defense to Ranged attacks is pretty easy with use of IOs.  And, really, that's what my prospective hinges on, the idea that ultimately, IOs will be used. 

 

Of course, this also depends on how you're playing the game.  If you're soloing, then Sentinel is absolutely the way to go.  Blasters can slot into defense, but you'd probably end up with more reliability with not as much effort through a Sentinel. 

 

However, if you're teaming, I think the Blaster has the clear edge.  You're not going to get the bang for your buck from the defense secondaries, if you have a half decent tank soaking up the hits.  If you're a Blaster, and you're in the fray, you're either a Blaster, or you're standing too close. 

 

There's probably a few other ways you could slice this to show how one could have the edge over the other.  Personally, if I'm playing in PvE, and I need an entire secondary dedicated to defenses, I'd be inclined to just roll a Scrapper or a Brute. 

 

This is all speaking mechanically, from a min/max prospective, of course.  There is no substitution for concept builds.

[marcussmythe]

I agree with the philosophy of Defense over Resist, but when taking a defensive powerset, I'd always go with a Resist set, and pool/bonus into Defenses.

 

With this thought process in mind, the disconnect I'm having with the Sentinel is why do I need these defenses, if I could be a Blaster and managed the +Defense from things like Scorpion Shield, Fighting, and IO sets? 

 

Everything has an opportunity cost.  And softcapped defenses are well and good until things have accuracy bonuses or debuffs start flying around.

 

Now, it may well be easier to get resist from your secondary and defense other places, rather than the reverse - but has anyone run the numbers on it (I do recall it seeming like secondaries/pools/IOs being a lot more generous with defense, espc. positional defense, than they were with resist).

 

As I cant find a stable version of MIDS that works for Sentinels, I'm all theorycraft at this point - maybe a max-resist set, and then focus on ranged/aoe positional defense?  W

 

hats the groupthink on the -toughest possible- Sentinel, assuming IOs, Pools, Incarnate, and Gods-Own-This-Is-My-Only-Character budget? 

 

Invuln used to be a goto for 'just plain hard to kill', but it seems to be being eclipsed by Willpower/Shield/Bioarmor, espc in an era of IOs and Pools?

[Twitchy McNutz]

I couldn't find that original link I had to the updated Mid's (now called Pine's) that includes the sentinels in it.  I did still have the .zip file of it so I put it up for you to download if you want marcussmythe.

 

Edit: just found the original link that I got it from.  https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1-4TEQtGOYD1LAito5-TK2O_3gEJRovUR

That is linked over on reddit in one of the replies. 

[Reiska]

1.)  Less damage that a scrapper (people are reporting defender like performance?)

 

The damage is Dominator level, actually, for what it's worth.  20% lower than Blaster on the regular blasts.  The T9 powers are somewhat harder hit but also have shorter cooldowns relative to their blaster variants.

 

2.)  Weaker than Scrapper secondaries applied to a Blasters tiny hit point total

 

Only slightly - Sentinel defensive values are 93.333% of scrapper/brute's.  They do share the Blaster's hit point total, but the blaster's hit point total is actually the 4th highest in the game (tied with Stalker).

 

3.)  Reduced range as compared to a blaster

 

By 25%, yeah.

 

4.)  Near-zero value 'special ability'

 

I dunno that I'd call it near-zero, but it's not all that much more impactful than, say, scrapper criticals (in fact it feels like scrapper criticals were the reference point balance-wise).

 

So, whats the juice to go with the squeeze?  Innate mez prot?  Some defense and resistance?  What does it give you that a Peacebringer does not?

 

I mean, dont get me wrong, Ive got a fire/fire concept Sentinel that I'm enjoying - but Im curious if the long term play value is worth it, or if its a 'more fun than good' character.

 

I'm enjoying mine (Beam Rifle/Willpower).  It's pretty much a blaster that trades blapping and extreme damage output for mez protection, yes.

[Novacat]

Consider however that their HP cap is shared with the lowest lot: 1606.4 as shared with Masterminds, Controllers, Corruptors, Dominators and Defenders. Kheldians and VEATs instead share their cap with the Scrapper.

[Venture]

I cant find the post but it was stated that Sentinels do under-perform somewhat and that this is sort of deliberate. SCORE wanted to err on the side of caution and buff, rather than nerf, sents if needed further down the line.

[marcussmythe]

I cant find the post but it was stated that Sentinels do under-perform somewhat and that this is sort of deliberate. SCORE wanted to err on the side of caution and buff, rather than nerf, sents if needed further down the line.

 

That makes sense.  My experience is that they play better than their numbers suggested.  I think thats all down to range.

 

I.)  My Sentinel spends nearly zero time maneuvering to get into range, and less time maneuvering to line up AOEs.  This translates to more time spent attacking and less time spent running, and adds to effective DPS in ways that dont show in raw calculation.

 

II.)  With a pure suite of ranged attacks, there is no reason for my Sentinel to be in melee range of the enemy, ever.  This results in far less incoming damage, as mobs are forced to only use their ranged attacks, rather than using every attack on their tray as fast as it recharges.  I think the real benefit here is not that ranged attacks do less damage than melee attacks (though anyone hit by a Rikti sword will note the difference!), but in less -total- attacks received.  A mob forced to engage at range spends more time idly waiting for his ranged attacks to recharge, rather than spamming his whole list.

 

On the whole, I'm finding my Sentinel plays about as well, or even slightly better, than my same level scrappers have historically.  Now that I'm low 20s and wearing SOs and the Defense parts of the character are starting to matter, I'm feeling a real difference.

 

 

[Von Krieger]

Consider however that their HP cap is shared with the lowest lot: 1606.4 as shared with Masterminds, Controllers, Corruptors, Dominators and Defenders. Kheldians and VEATs instead share their cap with the Scrapper.

 

Have not tried it in-game to confirm, but Pine's lists their HP cap as identical to the Stalker.

[MDLittle]

Sell you on Sentinels? Okay, you can make Iron Man (Technology Energy Blast/Invulnerabilty Sentinel). 'Nuff said.

[marcussmythe]

Sell you on Sentinels? Okay, you can make Iron Man (Technology Energy Blast/Invulnerabilty Sentinel). 'Nuff said.

 

You arent wrong! 

Im using them to replecate an old Champions character who was a flying second-string brick second string blaster.  Mobile, tough, shooty, though not as good as the team blaster at blasting or team tanker at tanking and LOL yeah, Sentinels. 

 

 

[Piledriver]

Sell you on Sentinels? Okay, you can make Iron Man (Technology Energy Blast/Invulnerabilty Sentinel). 'Nuff said.

 

I thought Sonic with the alternate animations looked more the part. Either way, yeah...

 

It also makes possible a proper Human Torch with fire blasts and fire armor.

 

It's not the most team-friendly class, but I imagine it was concocted to allow more soloable blasting when populations were low.

[OrionX]

With bio armor you can get a significant damage buff, +end and are more survivable.  With the plus end you can just hang in there ans spam your AOEs (fire) and keep it going.  It allows for a high output ranged character with a much less frantic play style.

[OrionX]

Also  you don't get held, mezzed and the like.

[GetRidOfWires]

I’m running a Fire/Regen Sentinel right now. I used to be a Blaster, but with SOs and Assault running, this guy is a beast. I have been on 8-person teams that have over aggro’d and actually not noticed that the Tank and I were the only ones left standing. Yes I could play the old glass cannon, but not dying or worrying about always dying or getting mezzed is just plain more fun.

[Crysta Clear]

Blasters have always felt weird to me, because why does a squishy ranged class need a whole secondary set of melee powers? I'd much rather trade those out to be less squishy. XD

[Novacat]

The "blaps" themselves were surprisingly powerful; high damage (though activation times could get a bit high on certain ones) generally paired with a solid Mez.

 

Admittedly though it didn't make up for the nerfs and "let's buff the enemies" of Mr."range is your defense you don't need real defenses" "damage is your defense you don't need range" "ranged damage is your defense you don't need mez protection" "you have range as your defense you don't need to deal more than these other ATs whose damage we're buffing". Just saying the blaps can offensively save you and/or your team from some hurt by in some cases approaching nuke-level damage, though just on a single target.