Settling in to a Tank

[tidge]

In some ways, I'm surprised that Fears work at all in this game. And I think they were reworked at least once, maybe twice with critter AI changes? I'm certainly glad that the main effect is "quiver in place" rather than actually running away.

 

They don't really hold enemies, nor do they really immobilize them. They act like neither placates nor taunts. I suppose in terms of how an "afraid" status helps neutralize critters is knockdown.

 

Fear has also got one of the two worst treatments in terms of Enhancement sets, the other being "Threat". I suppose we should be thankful that the Fear Enhancement sets off more than one piece that includes Accuracy.

[Snarky]

1 hour ago, Jacke said:

 

As @Spaghetti Betty pointed out that Touch of Fear is only ST for its Terrorize and -ToHit, I have to point out that Cloak of Fear is Base Accuracy 0.67, PBAoE Radius 8ft, Max Targets 10, Mag 2 Terrorize and -5% ToHit (before the Purple Patch has its wicked way with it).  Without a lot of attraction, you'll be lucky to have 10 targets in the AoE.  And you're going to need a lot of Global +ToHit and +Acc (more than any other Power needs) as well as ED-capped slotted Acc to get that chance-to-hit decent.  And then it's still just a Mag 2 Terrorize and -5% ToHit.  I did a lot of research and calculations when figuring out what Pets needed to get to 95% final chance-to-hit (because the vast majority of Pets don't benefit from the Toon's build's Global buffs, just the Slotting, and some don't even get the benefit of Tactics), but at least it was rare to find Pet Powers with lower than Base Accuracy 1.0.

 

As it is now, Cloak of Fear is a bad Power that demands too much in slotting and too much from the build to deliver less-than-meh results.  Taking it means there's another Toon with Dark Armor that takes Cloak of Fear and thus makes the usage stats for that Power look far better than the Power actually is.  Every Toon with Dark Armor without Cloak of Fear is another small step in moving the stats--that the Devs check--in the direction that shouts "Cloak of Fear is bad!  A must-skip!"  Maybe starting things on the way to perhaps someday it being buffed to better than less-than-meh.

 

 

 

This is true, a layering of Defense, Resists, and Heals/other Heal-like-things.  It's been true ever since ArcanaVille did a review of the original 4 Scrapper Protection Powersets (Dark Armor, Invulnerability, Regeneration, Super Reflexes) a long time ago when the Earth was green.  It's actually true for all Protection Powersets.  Dark Armor just did it better earlier.

 

https://web.archive.org/web/20120905195532/http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=115310

 

 

Going off issue 26 page 4 changes for Tankers I thought the PBAoE was improved from 8 to 12' radius and increased to 16 target cap.  I am unfamiliar with whether that applies to this power.  The documentation on this game is outdated and the powers have changed more than a U-boats course fleeing a destroyer.

 

You say you "need a lot" of stuff to get Cloak of Fear to be accurate.  I have it enhanced to +60.9% in the power.  Then I have +54% Accuracy from Purple sets and such.  Then a Kismet +6% to hit Global I/O.  Is that "a lot of stuff?"

 

I say play however you want.  You say I should skip the power in some cyber protest until the Devs cave to your idea of the power structure for Dark.  Hey, good luck with that.  

 

I have a Dark Dark Brute with almost 200 vet levels.  Not a farmer.  I am indeed settling comfortably into this Dark Tank as my main. 58 vet levels, 1161 badges.  Both run Cloak of Fear.

 

Again, I advocate for Dark taking all the powers in it's Armor Set.  And using them.  That is what I do.  But please, do whatever you want.

 

Hey, maybe you could get everyone to roll up Dark Armor characters and all take the powers the way you suggest, creating a wave of data that will surely convince the Devs to change course and rewrite Dark Armor the way you want it to be.  I do wish you well.  I'm gonna play this Tank.  My way.  

[Sovera]

I read you, Snarky. I was checking this thread and seeing you have to excuse yourself because you take it and I don't think it's needed. We just want you informed and then you do what you wish with the info. It's not like the build, or the game, will crumble because you take that one extra power.

 

 

Derailing a bit. I confess I'm not the best at thematics since as a roleplayer it was faster and easier to come up with a reason why something happened than contort myself into odd shapes to fit a theme. One of my first RP min maxed builds was in the original Neverwinter Nights where my cleric was a follower of X deity (don't ask me to remember because it's been literally decades) who was a monk, and I had all my RP about being ascetic, researched the god's lore so I could spout it, would engage in monk training, etc. But in practice all I wanted was the monk's extra attacks per turn combined with the cleric spells that gave ANOTHER attack per turn while also fixing the accuracy penalty from the extra attacks from the monk. And that's pretty much how I roll.

 

Then there was someone complaining at the time how they were ineffective in combat but then talking about their RP build and how they were half yuan ti (half snake person, don't ask me how that works) and even had taken the feats to have +2 to poison rolls. And I was... my brother in christ, that's useless, no wonder you feel weak if the rest of the build is like that. The mobs don't care about your feat choices, the players can't even see your feat choices.

 

 

CoH is not that different to me. One of my first characters was a Rad/Ninja Sentinel and my friend made fun of me for being a ninja with radioactive blasts. But I just coloured everything bright white and said 'it's magic, not radiation'. I don't much care about the labels on a can. Later on one of my iterations of the Fire/Martial Arts Tanker was a phoenix straight out of a cultivation manwha to explain the fire and the martial arts.

[tidge]

10 hours ago, Snarky said:

Hey, maybe you could get everyone to roll up Dark Armor characters and all take the powers the way you suggest, creating a wave of data that will surely convince the Devs to change course and rewrite Dark Armor the way you want it to be.  I do wish you well.  I'm gonna play this Tank.  My way.  

 

It seems highly unlikely to me that data-mining (by the devs, by the powers team) of selected powers would be the driving force behind changes to particular powers in Dark Armor. I am aware that years ago the team with access to the character database would occasionally make public statements that they had looked at player-selected powers (or at least power sets), but I always got the sense that, in the case of particular powers, someone on the powers team had more of an inkling about the balance of the specific power, possibly from conversations, rather than deep-diving power selection.

 

For example: consensus on the Robotics MM primary Triage Beacon was a pretty poor choice, yet a LOT of Robotics MM were seen to have selected it and advocate for it in the forums. Nevertheless, it got turned into something much better as part of a bigger revamp. The allowance to pick T2 secondary powers at level 1 was certainly not because everyone skipped the secondary T1 powers. I don't think there is any reason to "revamp" Dark Armor completely, although I can imagine subtle motivations: Bark Armour is, and always has been, toggle-heavy.... with toggles almost evenly split between for the player and for the critters.

 

The individual power's endurance costs are probably (just a guess, I don't feel like spreadsheeting them across ATs and alternate armor choices) aligned, but everyone who plays teh set knows that in total it becomes a problem for Endurance. If I had to guess what a slightly different Dark Armor would look like, but still feel like a classic Dark Armor:

• One of the Resistance toggles would become an auto power, and get a "balance pass" for values
• One of critter toggles (probably Cloak of Fear, because as a Fear it is different than other types of mezz) would become an on-activation PBAoE, also with a "balance pass", especially for Accuracy.

As a matter of personal opinion: I definitely think that primary/secondary (not pools) power sets used by ATs that rely on multiple toggles (especially self-only-affecting ones) probably could use a "modern" look at Endurance consumption. I'm sure I'm not the only Tanker player that picks primary Armor toggles, slots them, and then doesn't actually turn them on.

 

I can conjure an apocryphal set of reasons for why the Dark Armor "offensive" toggles have remained as they are. The original (Day 0) Fiery Armor sets taught those devs a lesson about in-game rewards for players doing nothing but turn on toggles; the PVP era reinforced some peculiar beliefs about controls usable by melee types (e.g. Stuns).

[Thraxen]

Made a dark dark very early this morning. Skipped to 27. Leveled to 32. It’s more fun than last time I tried. I think skipping to 27 helps a ton. 
 

thinking about trying the chance for disorient proc in all the attacks. See if it stacks with oppressive gloom. 

[teuggye]

I love my dark/dark, its not the better, but very fun et Can take a large amount if damage 

[Jacke]

7 hours ago, Sovera said:

I read you, Snarky. I was checking this thread and seeing you have to excuse yourself because you take it and I don't think it's needed. We just want you informed and then you do what you wish with the info. It's not like the build, or the game, will crumble because you take that one extra power.

 

What @Sovera said, @Snarky.  It's advice to you.  It's your Toon and you build and play it how you want to.

 

 

4 hours ago, tidge said:

It seems highly unlikely to me that data-mining (by the devs, by the powers team) of selected powers would be the driving force behind changes to particular powers in Dark Armor.

 

I do know that data-mining plays a part in deciding when to take a Powerset through a revision.  I suspect to get that review would be better initiated by suggestions based off of how unequal Dark Armor and Fiery Aura are with their little-to-no KB Protection and no KB Resistance--which every other Melee AT Protection Powerset has oodles of, with only Fiery Aura getting some compensation in the form of moar damage.  While Dark Armor gets burdened by high Endurance costs as well.  Having the +End power in Dark Melee doesn't help the Dark Armor Toons with another Melee Powerset.

 

 

4 hours ago, tidge said:

For example: consensus on the Robotics MM primary Triage Beacon was a pretty poor choice, yet a LOT of Robotics MM were seen to have selected it and advocate for it in the forums. Nevertheless, it got turned into something much better as part of a bigger revamp.

 

Isn't Triage Beacon in Traps ?  (My Robotics Mastermind is Bots/Traps too.  😺 )  Ah, you mean Repair, which became Maintenance Drone !  Damn that looks cool.  My current build has it, though only with the Base Slot.  Build is from 2023 and Toon is still L15, so doesn't have it yet (L18).  And the build doesn't have enough Slotted Accuracy in the Pet Summons Powers (see below).  That will need changing when I do a new build.

 

 

4 hours ago, tidge said:

The allowance to pick T2 secondary powers at level 1 was certainly not because everyone skipped the secondary T1 powers.

 

Not all changes come from data mining.  The ability to pick at Level 1 either the Secondary T1 or T2 Power has been a long standing request.  Being forced into the Secondary T1 Power--the only Must-Take Power--has been a problem with some Toons for a long time.  I thought it would be a hard change, not realising that the code already existed for VEATs over L23.  If that was the only Power Pick Level change, I would have been happy.  Getting the downleveling of the Primary T8 and T9 and the Secondary T7, T8, and T9 was welcome....  But damn, is L20 to ~L32 full of Power Picks with far too few Extra Slot Picks now.  😺

 

 

 

4 hours ago, tidge said:

I don't think there is any reason to "revamp" Dark Armor completely, although I can imagine subtle motivations: Bark Armour is, and always has been, toggle-heavy.... with toggles almost evenly split between for the player and for the critters.

 

Oh, wow, is this ever true.  On top of all those toggles, the most powerful self-heal in the game, but needs to hit mobs to heal and costs a lot of Endurance.  Sure, that can be mitigated, especially with IOs.

 

As to what would be done with Dark Armor, we don't know.  I've loved some Powerset changes.  Others have been somewhat to a lot frustrating.  But there are quite a few Powersets that need some attention.  Hopefully beneficial.

 

 

I know @tidge mentioned this.  The original Afraid effect made the mobs run away.  Around Issue 2, most Powers with that were changed to the Terrorize effect that made the mobs tremble in fear on the spot, but if attacked they can counter-attack somewhat.  Overall it's called Fear, with most instances of that now being Terrorize and showing as that in the Real Numbers and on the screen status bar.  Still some sources of Afraid, damage patches I think, others too, can't remember for sure.

https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Afraid

https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Fear

 

 

15 hours ago, Snarky said:

Going off issue 26 page 4 changes for Tankers I thought the PBAoE was improved from 8 to 12' radius and increased to 16 target cap.  I am unfamiliar with whether that applies to this power.  The documentation on this game is outdated and the powers have changed more than a U-boats course fleeing a destroyer.

 

Forgot about that one.  (Hey, I'm getting over a cold.  That I've been able to post at all...except in the Kerbal Space Program forums....  Damn, things are rough there.  KSP 2 is in bad shape (and well beyond my hardware's ability) and now the studio making it is gone, destroyed by the Empire Take-Two Interactive.  And only a line saying things will continue and dead silence for a week.  I fear for the future of a game, KSP, the original, that I can play and love as much as City.  Without the KSP forums as a central community for the players to share mod info and communicate and be a community....)  Okay, now I'm  really feeling down....  😿

 

 

I logged in my CB Dark/Dark Tanker who's all of L7 and popped up the /linkinfo for Cloak of Fear.  Herm, still shows 8ft Radius, 10 Target cap.  Let's look at the CoD2 page:

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=tanker_defense.dark_armor.cloak_of_fear&at=tanker

 

Herm....  Doesn't have the funky code line adjusting MaxTargets with Gauntlet that I see with other Powers, just a line saying the Tanker has to be 5s out of a Mez before Cloak of Fear will do anything.  CoD2 reflects what's in the game code but sometimes it's not quite the whole story.

 

I'm going to assume that Cloak of Fear on a Tanker should be 12ft Radius and 16 MaxTargets.  You should test it.  And I think you'll need to use Taunt to draw in the punters to fill that AoE.

 

 

15 hours ago, Snarky said:

You say you "need a lot" of stuff to get Cloak of Fear to be accurate.  I have it enhanced to +60.9% in the power.  Then I have +54% Accuracy from Purple sets and such.  Then a Kismet +6% to hit Global I/O.  Is that "a lot of stuff?"

 

Well, let's see.  Use the usual max case at L50I of going against +3L targets (+4 versus a T3 or T4 Alpha Boost), so base 48% chance ToHit.  Final chance is

 

Base Accuracy x (1 + Slotted Accuracy + Global Accuracy) x ( Base Chance ToHit + ToHit Buffs + Target Effective Def Debuffs - Caster Effective ToHit Debuffs )

 

Let's consider those last 2 to be 0.

 

0.67  x  ( 1 + 0.609 + 0.54 ) x (  0.48 + 0.06  )

 

0.67  x  2.149  x  0.54

 

0.778

 

77.8%

 

From the Activate Period, that's checked every 5s.  Against +3L Targets, the Purple Patch effects are to reduce Buffs and Debuffs to 65% and Mez Times to 65%.  So, even without Debuff/Mez Resistances:

• -5% ToHit for 5s reduced to -3.25%.
• 7.45s Mag2 Terrorized reduced to 4.8s.

It's similar to what I found a few months back with Pets (who the vast majority do not benefit from the Caster's build's Global ToHit, Global Accuracy, or Level Boosts).  For Pet Builds, I have 2 Rules I follow so I don't have to calculate for every case:

• Slot Pet Summons Powers with ED-capped Accuracy.
• If the Pet has important Powers with less than 1.2 Base Accuracy, the build really needs Tactics.  Even a MM's weak Tactics makes a major difference.

For Cloak of Fear, if you had ~96% slotted Accuracy, the final ToHit above would have been just above 90%.  Needs either more Global Accuracy or Tactics to push it to 95%.

 

And the issue is even if the Notoriety is lower, +3, sometimes will still encounter +4s.  Lower Notoriety and Cloak of Fear becomes more effective.  But I really dislike having such situational powers.  Especially one that always soaks up a lot of Endurance/s from a Powerset already bad for that.

 

I've considered Cloak of Fear in builds with 6 HOs: 3x Acc/Mez 3x ToHit Debuff/EndRed, with Global ToHit and Accuracy and EndRed backing it up.  Then I saw that was a vast investment--more than any other Power needed--and what it was doing to the build.  I knew I could get more out of the build by skipping Cloak of Fear and going with another Power and putting those Extra Slots and build resources elsewhere.

 

It's your Toon, @Snarky.  Play it how you want it.

 

Others question why I take Soul Transfer.  I question why they skip an AWESOME Power !!!  I even take it on Defenders via Dark Mastery.  I even had it on my Rad/Rad Defender once--where the build was really screwed up, really needs Mace Mastery--and remember self-rezzing during a Zombie invasion and...it...was...AWESOME!!!

 

But Cloak of Fear....  Alas....

 

Long ago Cloak of Fear was nerfed into the ground harder than Regeneration.  It's sad.  I'd like it to be a better Power.  That's why I don't take it.  That's why I spend time spelling out how bad the power is.  Why I bring it up so many times where I know the Devs read.

 

 

Edited May 7 by Jacke

[tidge]

Whups... meant Repair, which I don't think anyone really took!

[Snarky]

1 hour ago, Jacke said:

Well, let's see.  Use the usual max case at L50I of going against +3L targets (+4 versus a T3 or T4 Alpha Boost), so base 48% chance ToHit.  Final chance is

 

Base Accuracy x (1 + Slotted Accuracy + Global Accuracy) x ( Base Chance ToHit + ToHit Buffs + Target Effective Def Debuffs - Caster Effective ToHit Debuffs )

 

Let's consider those last 2 to be 0.

 

0.67  x  ( 1 + 0.609 + 0.54 ) x (  0.48 + 0.06  )

 

0.67  x  2.149  x  0.54

 

0.778

 

77.8%

 

From the Activate Period, that's checked every 5s.  Against +3L Targets, the Purple Patch effects are to reduce Buffs and Debuffs to 65% and Mez Times to 65%.  So, even without Debuff/Mez Resistances:

• -5% ToHit for 5s reduced to -3.25%.
• 7.45s Mag2 Terrorized reduced to 4.8s.

It's similar to what I found a few months back with Pets (who the vast majority do not benefit from the Caster's build's Global ToHit, Global Accuracy, or Level Boosts).  For Pet Builds, I have 2 Rules I follow so I don't have to calculate for every case:

• Slot Pet Summons Powers with ED-capped Accuracy.
• If the Pet has important Powers with less than 1.2 Base Accuracy, the build really needs Tactics.  Even a MM's weak Tactics makes a major difference.

For Cloak of Fear, if you had ~96% slotted Accuracy, the final ToHit above would have been just above 90%.  Needs either more Global Accuracy or Tactics to push it to 95%.

 

Thanks for the math.  I have Cloak of Fear 3 slotted with Unspeakable terror (Acc/Rech, Acc/End, Acc/Fear/Rech)  3% Energy Res set bonus, but the set is max 30

 

I could reslot to Cloud Senses 2 slot (2.25% Energy Res), and a I/O Accuracy 50+5....  Since i can yoink those with unslotters i will try that today.  Mids will not do +5, but without the extra 10.6% from the +5 it sits at 85.9.  so after ED.  well let me do it lol.  

 

Hmm. game shows 92.5% accuracy on Cloak of Fear after changes.  Which sounds right.  Since this is a small portion of my mitigation strategy I will call it a win and move on lol.  Thanks

[Thraxen]

I'm still low so it isn't near perma, but soul drain adds a ton of to hit so cloak hits a lot more when it is up.  Would be similiar with rage or one of the claws/db attacks.

[Snarky]

5 hours ago, Thraxen said:

I'm still low so it isn't near perma, but soul drain adds a ton of to hit so cloak hits a lot more when it is up.  Would be similiar with rage or one of the claws/db attacks.

Shhh, you are giving away trade secrets.

[Sovera]

8 hours ago, Thraxen said:

I'm still low so it isn't near perma, but soul drain adds a ton of to hit so cloak hits a lot more when it is up.  Would be similiar with rage or one of the claws/db attacks.

 

Best I had it was with a 4 second downtime. But since it's Souldrain it only makes sense to use it on a full group.

 

Soul Drain is actually one of the reasons I end up not liking Dark Melee. The recharge is slightly too high making it available once every two groups which is not ideal. Unless we want to use on an half dead group and then 'waste' half its potential. And don't get me started on it being barely useful on a single target BUT the ever present chance of it simply missing.

 

Ugh.

[Snarky]

25 minutes ago, Sovera said:

 

Best I had it was with a 4 second downtime. But since it's Souldrain it only makes sense to use it on a full group.

 

Soul Drain is actually one of the reasons I end up not liking Dark Melee. The recharge is slightly too high making it available once every two groups which is not ideal. Unless we want to use on an half dead group and then 'waste' half its potential. And don't get me started on it being barely useful on a single target BUT the ever present chance of it simply missing.

 

Ugh.

soul drain is definitely a double edged sword.  my thoughts are this.  if the fights are tough (lots of opponents) its a great buff.  if you are fighting an AV... you are mostly tanking more than DPS...hopefully.  for anything else...there is a little patience.

[Thraxen]

I'll post build I'm working on in a different post as to not further hijack this one.

[Thraxen]

2 hours ago, Sovera said:

 

Best I had it was with a 4 second downtime. But since it's Souldrain it only makes sense to use it on a full group.

 

Soul Drain is actually one of the reasons I end up not liking Dark Melee. The recharge is slightly too high making it available once every two groups which is not ideal. Unless we want to use on an half dead group and then 'waste' half its potential. And don't get me started on it being barely useful on a single target BUT the ever present chance of it simply missing.

 

Ugh.

 

 

Against one target it is likely an AV.  Cloak of fear and touch of fear might not help, but I've feared Vandal in Citadel.  I haven't like dark melee on a scrap or brute.  I like it on this tank.  At least so far.  

[victusfate]

groovy found the thread

I've got a build for my little dark/dark tank. Will review with the latest accuracy info.

 

ps thanks for the quick levels for my fire/fire tank Snarky!

Edited May 14 by victusfate

[Snarky]

here is my current versions with a modification to Cloak of Fear slotting.  i also changed out the Perfect Zinger for a Taunt I/O

Tanker - Dark Dark v7.2.mbd