Powerset combo choices - Them tankers gotta tank.

[Aeroprism]

9 minutes ago, Sovera said:

 

No. Otherwise they would not have compensated for the damage loss (one might argue why fix it then. I have no answers to this). Burn did a double proc chance from firing procs once and then the pseudo pet it spawning having a chance to proc the procs again, ergo double proc chance. In practice I found there was no reason to load up on procs as it ate on the recharge which made less Burns-per-minute which ended lowering the damage per minute.

I understand.  thank you for taking the time to explain, it's appreciated.

[Yomo Kimyata]

15 hours ago, Aeroprism said:

After the HUGE success of my epic  "give me your hidden gem" AT/Combo for scrappers topic, I'm looking for the same kind of insight from and for tankers, starting with those three I have here.

 

My philosophy for scrappers has generally been to get as much survivability as I can for my desired purposes, and then lean into damage.

 

I don't generally play tankers, since for my purposes they don't seem to be able to die at all!  

 

That said, I would say that Radiation Armor/Battle Axe is probably the most overpowered tank that I could imagine.

 

 

[Aeroprism]

50 minutes ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

 

My philosophy for scrappers has generally been to get as much survivability as I can for my desired purposes, and then lean into damage.

 

I don't generally play tankers, since for my purposes they don't seem to be able to die at all!  

 

That said, I would say that Radiation Armor/Battle Axe is probably the most overpowered tank that I could imagine.

 

 

 

What makes Axe so special on Tankers? 

 

To my neophyte eye, it's just Lethal damage and some knockdown. What makes it such an ideal partner for the likes of Bio and Rad?

[ZemX]

16 hours ago, Aeroprism said:

Fire/Staff (which is... meeeh)

 

My first tanker to 50 was a Rad/Staff.  Staff generally gets looked down on for being a poor performer on damage... which is fair.  But in my opinion it's a fantastic and fun tanking secondary because it had three AoEs that get super-sized by the Tanker inherent.  Rad then adds its two proc-bombs for even more AoE and now you've got not just decent damage, but a lot of ability to spread that taunt around and grab attention and keep it.  And that's the actual tanking part.

 

What Staff adds to Rad is mainly that 13% +Res(All) from Sky Splitter's bonus in Form of Body stance.  This makes it that much easier, combined with the Tanker ATO, to cap most/all resistances (except probably Cold).  Very tough customer.   The +def Guarded Spin is nice, but I generally only use that as a place to stuff another LotG.   I generally ignore defense because of the lack of DDR.  

 

That said, my most player Tanker is easily the Rad/Ice.   I love being able to drop Ice Patch on one group of enemies and then go deal with some other problem.  It's a bit like being able to be in two places at once.

[ZemX]

9 minutes ago, Aeroprism said:

What makes Axe so special on Tankers? 

 

To my neophyte eye, it's just Lethal damage and some knockdown. What makes it such an ideal partner for the likes of Bio and Rad?

 

The PBAoE is the same size as other ATs but it hits up to 16 targets on a Tanker.   Pendulum gets expanded to a 12ft radius around the chosen target and hits up to ten.  Cyclone into Pendulum is just ridiculously effective.  

 

Then there's recharge.  EVERY attack in Axe can slot FF:Rech.  You don't have to.  But you could.  This greatly benefits either Rad or Bio where faster recharge on powers like the self-heal or absorb shield can mean immortality.  Not to mention yet more damage output.   And both have excellent endurance recovery and drain resistance tools to fuel a high-recharge monster.

[Aeroprism]

10 minutes ago, ZemX said:

 

My first tanker to 50 was a Rad/Staff.  Staff generally gets looked down on for being a poor performer on damage... which is fair.  But in my opinion it's a fantastic and fun tanking secondary because it had three AoEs that get super-sized by the Tanker inherent.  Rad then adds its two proc-bombs for even more AoE and now you've got not just decent damage, but a lot of ability to spread that taunt around and grab attention and keep it.  And that's the actual tanking part.

 

What Staff adds to Rad is mainly that 13% +Res(All) from Sky Splitter's bonus in Form of Body stance.  This makes it that much easier, combined with the Tanker ATO, to cap most/all resistances (except probably Cold).  Very tough customer.   The +def Guarded Spin is nice, but I generally only use that as a place to stuff another LotG.   I generally ignore defense because of the lack of DDR.  

 

That said, my most player Tanker is easily the Rad/Ice.   I love being able to drop Ice Patch on one group of enemies and then go deal with some other problem.  It's a bit like being able to be in two places at once.

 

4 minutes ago, ZemX said:

 

The PBAoE is the same size as other ATs but it hits up to 16 targets on a Tanker.   Pendulum gets expanded to a 12ft radius around the chosen target and hits up to ten.  Cyclone into Pendulum is just ridiculously effective.  

 

Then there's recharge.  EVERY attack in Axe can slot FF:Rech.  You don't have to.  But you could.  This greatly benefits either Rad or Bio where faster recharge on powers like the self-heal or absorb shield can mean immortality.  Not to mention yet more damage output.   And both have excellent endurance recovery and drain resistance tools to fuel a high-recharge monster.

 

This explains everything so wonderfully.

 

I should have known that Zathras knew. 

 

Then again, Rad/ is by far my favorite powerset so, I think I'll make a Sovera of myself and MAKE ALL THE RAD/ TANKS.

I'd vary with Brutes but I assume they don't enjoy the same AoE caps?

Edited June 6 by Aeroprism

[Yomo Kimyata]

27 minutes ago, Aeroprism said:

 

What makes Axe so special on Tankers? 

 

To my neophyte eye, it's just Lethal damage and some knockdown. What makes it such an ideal partner for the likes of Bio and Rad?

 

Axe Cyclone gives every battle-axer access to a Fold Space-lite power (without investing in the Teleport pool), and gathering opponents into a tight space works extremely well for the meta of target-rich environments.  This works very well for tankers particularly.  The knockdown helps if you want to sneak a Force Feedback +recharge proc or three into your build and can make Hasten optional.  (On scrappers, I'll put the FF+rech in Pendulum, Axe Cyclone, and maybe Cleave.  That's plenty.)

 

Bio and Rad are rich with AoE effects.  Gather them in with Axe Cyclone and hit them with DNA Siphon/Genetic Contamination/Parasitic Aura or Radiation Therapy/Beta Decay/Ground Zero.

[ZemX]

1 hour ago, Aeroprism said:

I'd vary with Brutes but I assume they don't enjoy the same AoE caps?

 

Correct.  Tankers get bigger AoEs with more targets and Brutes get Fury.

 

There are various exceptions to the AoE size and target cap rules.  Foot Stomp and Axe Cyclone for example, are 15ft radius for everyone.  Most other Tanker AoEs that are 8ft or 10ft radius, however, become 12ft and 15ft respectively.   So that makes a lot of tanker PBAoEs as big as Foot Stomp.   Ice Melee's Frozen Aura is basically an Icy Foot Stomp.

 

It's on a power-by-power basis, so best place to check it is City of Data.  Look for this mouse-over icon in the power and see if Radius or Arc strength are disallowed.  That means basically the Tanker inherent size increase doesn't apply (also, it's covered a bit by the mouse-over popup, but behind that is the statement about target cap:

"Max Targets: 16 - 6 * Source.Mode?(kDisable_GauntletTargetCap)"  (basically, everyone but Tankers has GauntletTargetCap disabled, so they get, in this case, 16-6=10 targets max.  Tankers get 16.  A bit backwards to read, but you get the hang of it).

 

Anyway, in this example below, Axe Cyclone has disabled Radius strength, which means it ignores the Tanker +50% radius buff and keeps its 15ft radius it has for all ATs.

 

Edited June 6 by ZemX

[Aeroprism]

So much useful info!! Thank you!!

 

So, regarding my very first post:  Psi Melee and savage Melee are both a big nope on Tanks?

 

[Thraxen]

Savage is fine on tank I’d imagine. My main is sav/inv scrap. I love savage. Shred is probably better on a tank. I had a psi scrap but deleted it. Psi is just weird imo. 

[Sovera]

1 hour ago, Aeroprism said:

So much useful info!! Thank you!!

 

So, regarding my very first post:  Psi Melee and savage Melee are both a big nope on Tanks?

 

 

Played both. I'll preface by saying that if you've liked the sets on other ATs then there is nothing controversial that happens if playing them on a Tanker. If the fun factor is important then play them as anything works in the end, mobs will be arrested, XP will be accrued, levels will be got, etc.

 

 

That said Savage Melee needs a tune up as it's strongest attack actually is not worth using leaving it to use the T1, T2, and T5. These works very well for a snappy attack rotation, beautiful animations, very bestial. But using T1 and T2 in the rotation means the damage will never be great. The fact it uses DoTs also means the upfront damage is lower and relies on that DoT which slows the feel of combat. Against so much as a boss it feels great to start smacking it and see the HP melt as the DoTs stack. But anything lower than and it feels a lot like flailing with no effect. There are some niggles like its Build-up being slower to animate and how it's best not to remove the Blood stacks since they give more benefit which runs counter to the theme, but nothing much to be done until the devs give it a pass. Unfortunately the only pass they gave it so far was 'fixing' Hemorrhage for Stalkers, the only AT that used Hemo, which made it so Stalkers too stopped using Hemo 🙂

 

Brutes are the best AT, IMO, for this set with Fury boosting the DoTs. Was good fun to play a Savage/Stone and see the stream of small numbers from SM's DoTs, Brimstone DoTs, Mudpot DoTs, and then Degenerative DoTs as well.

 

 

 

Psi Melee is another that needs a tune up. Is a set unpopular? Then the common pattern is that it needs a tune up. The damage is not amazing, and while in the beginning players thought it was good damage (partly because Mids was bugged and showed the set doing more damage than it actually did) thanks to Insight the truth is that there is not free lunch. Yes, Insight added damage. No, it was not free damage as the set's damage was balanced with Insight's damage.

 

To perfectly use the set a player will run their rotation ,then when Insight pops up they stop using Greater Psi Sword in order to not use up Insight and have that extra damage up until the very last second when they do use GPS for the big damage boost that consumes Insight. I don't need to tell you how unprepared CoH is for this gameplay. There is no easy way to check the remaining time of Insight and who the heck wants to stop using their big damage skill when most of the time it is needed for a gapless rotation? That Insight ending forces a 15 second lock-out should be enough without GPS forcing that lockout to happen sooner.

 

Other than that it's just the usual niggles. Slow and weak AoE all the way to level 30 is terrible for leveling though Mass Levitate does wonders for added survivability once at 30. Sadly by 30 is when the robots start appearing who are resistant to psi.

 

Tanker is a very good pair for someone who likes Psi as it provides a much needed extra AoE at level 18 with Burn and both Burn and Fiery Embrace help soften up psi resistant mobs while Mass Levitate helps the survival of Fire Armor. Mass Levitate also slots Force Feedback to speed up the build. Brutes used to only have Burn at 28 which was dire but now that it's at 24 it can be palatable to level with a Brute instead.

[Yomo Kimyata]

2 hours ago, Aeroprism said:

Psi Melee and savage Melee are both a big nope on Tanks?

 

Can't speak for tanks, but in my experience psi melee is almost entirely about Mass Levitate -- once it enters your attack chain, it's the focal point.

[Aeroprism]

Tell me, @Sovera ye who's Fire Armor wisdom is only surpassed by OMG IT'S A SLEEPING KITTEN! 

 

My first 50 on HC was a Fire Armor/Staff tank based on my old D&D char I have been loving since around 1996 or so. But then I was kindly informed that this powerset combo sucked. Bad.  So I kinda shelved the poor guy.

 

Not looking to turn him to a +4 x8 machine or anything but, is it true that the combo is so bad?  I kinda want to give him a second chance.

[Sovera]

17 minutes ago, Aeroprism said:

Tell me, @Sovera ye who's Fire Armor wisdom is only surpassed by OMG IT'S A SLEEPING KITTEN! 

 

My first 50 on HC was a Fire Armor/Staff tank based on my old D&D char I have been loving since around 1996 or so. But then I was kindly informed that this powerset combo sucked. Bad.  So I kinda shelved the poor guy.

 

Not looking to turn him to a +4 x8 machine or anything but, is it true that the combo is so bad?  I kinda want to give him a second chance.

 

We would first need to define what 'bad' is. Is bad the inability to solo +4x8? Or is bad soloing a Trapdoor in 10 minutes (best times are around 3-4 minutes and my tanks usually did it in 6)?

 

I just found that there were better combos so my Fire/Staff characters rarely got past level 30. The AoE was nothing special and the ST was slow. But Fire Armor can solo +4x8 and with Envenomed Daggers we can solo an AV if it comes down to it. It's true that you will need them for any AV, but, because they exist it also means you can have your cake and eat it too. No need to not play a concept you like because you're worried it would brick a run when/if facing an AV.

[Aeroprism]

57 minutes ago, Sovera said:

 

We would first need to define what 'bad' is. Is bad the inability to solo +4x8? Or is bad soloing a Trapdoor in 10 minutes (best times are around 3-4 minutes and my tanks usually did it in 6)?

 

I just found that there were better combos so my Fire/Staff characters rarely got past level 30. The AoE was nothing special and the ST was slow. But Fire Armor can solo +4x8 and with Envenomed Daggers we can solo an AV if it comes down to it. It's true that you will need them for any AV, but, because they exist it also means you can have your cake and eat it too. No need to not play a concept you like because you're worried it would brick a run when/if facing an AV.

 

So basically, if I kit him moderately well and foll around in task forces and Ouro story arcs, I won't curl in a ball and cry for my Rad/Claw tank to come and save me?

 

Also: thank you for your response. Your insight is always appreciated.

 

Edit: Because really, I can just restart him.  I like /Staff but I never found a Primary that really meshed well with it.

Edited June 11 by Aeroprism

[Sovera]

5 minutes ago, Aeroprism said:

 

So basically, if I kit him moderately well and foll around in task forces and Ouro story arcs, I won't curl in a ball and cry for my Rad/Claw tank to come and save me?

 

Also: thank you for your response. Your insight is always appreciated.

 

Edit: Because really, I can just restart him.  I like /Staff but I never found a Primary that really meshed well with it.

 

If you consider Stalkers you can help fix the ST problem that Staff has both in the form of a strong ST attack which the set lacks as well as having a traditional Build-up power instead of shifting staff forms. Survival is not a problem for Stalkers since pretty much all melee ATs can solo +4x8, Tankers are just the peak survival and can do so at an earlier level.

 

The only true loss from shifting from Tanker to Stalker is that agro loss. Mobs will run away from a Stalker which does not happen with a Tanker.

 

 

I'm not big on Staff since I couldn't find a decent way to cover the ST aspect. The ranged attack is slow and does not hit particularly hard and the T9 is glacial, so even with Assassin's Strike help there would still be a need to fill up the attack chain. Probably the ranged attack, a T2, and Guarded Spin?

 

I might suggest Stone Armor (but I'm biased) as a strong contender since it is mostly passive, provides recharge, a damage boost, more recovery. Stalkers lose the damage/agro aura for Hide but Brimstone still adds damage. Even for the Tanker I'd still suggest the same. Pity we don't have an elemental staff like the sword composed of flames because a rocky staff would fit in when we cover ourselves in rock/crystal (can be disguised as ice)/lava.

[Aeroprism]

13 minutes ago, Sovera said:

 

If you consider Stalkers you can help fix the ST problem that Staff has both in the form of a strong ST attack which the set lacks as well as having a traditional Build-up power instead of shifting staff forms. Survival is not a problem for Stalkers since pretty much all melee ATs can solo +4x8, Tankers are just the peak survival and can do so at an earlier level.

 

The only true loss from shifting from Tanker to Stalker is that agro loss. Mobs will run away from a Stalker which does not happen with a Tanker.

 

 

I'm not big on Staff since I couldn't find a decent way to cover the ST aspect. The ranged attack is slow and does not hit particularly hard and the T9 is glacial, so even with Assassin's Strike help there would still be a need to fill up the attack chain. Probably the ranged attack, a T2, and Guarded Spin?

 

I might suggest Stone Armor (but I'm biased) as a strong contender since it is mostly passive, provides recharge, a damage boost, more recovery. Stalkers lose the damage/agro aura for Hide but Brimstone still adds damage. Even for the Tanker I'd still suggest the same. Pity we don't have an elemental staff like the sword composed of flames because a rocky staff would fit in when we cover ourselves in rock/crystal (can be disguised as ice)/lava.

 

Oh it's all conceptual anyways.  Any AT I like would work. My old D&D char used to be an attack mage, the only reason I made him a tank is because blasters can't use a staff and it was kinda the whole point of the character.

 

In the end, it's just for fun, I have so, so many other alts to play with 🙂

[Sovera]

16 minutes ago, Aeroprism said:

 

Oh it's all conceptual anyways.  Any AT I like would work. My old D&D char used to be an attack mage, the only reason I made him a tank is because blasters can't use a staff and it was kinda the whole point of the character.

 

In the end, it's just for fun, I have so, so many other alts to play with 🙂

 

The upside is that Staff is in such a low place that when the devs get to tweaking it it'll shoot up. I, for one, would love to see it since I always had a huge soft spot for old kung-fu movies and staff users.

[Aeroprism]

9 minutes ago, Sovera said:

 

The upside is that Staff is in such a low place that when the devs get to tweaking it it'll shoot up. I, for one, would love to see it since I always had a huge soft spot for old kung-fu movies and staff users.

 

Smart.  I won't delete my guy then and see what the future holds for him.

[ZemX]

1 hour ago, Sovera said:

I, for one, would love to see it since I always had a huge soft spot for old kung-fu movies and staff users.

 

One of my favorite toons is a Staff/Ninja Stalker.  "Dynasty" costume for the ninja look and a Naginata for the staff.

 

I've done Staff on both Tanker and Stalker and like them each for different reasons.  Staff starts with generously sized AoEs that become super-sized on a Tanker.  Since I mostly tank on teams, the weakness in ST is not so bad for me.  But it's then nice to switch over to the Stalker and play ninja boss-killer!

[mcdoogss]

On 6/6/2024 at 9:28 PM, Yomo Kimyata said:

 

Can't speak for tanks, but in my experience psi melee is almost entirely about Mass Levitate -- once it enters your attack chain, it's the focal point.

 

I'd agree with that.  Even then though, ML isn't numerically exceptional in any way compared to other sets T9 pbaoe.  Mechanically in real use I'd rank it near the bottom actually, especially during most of the game where the only other AOE is a cone.  This is due to the way it throws mobs around which causes constant repositioning. ML is fun, but psi melee overall is one of those sets that desperately needs help from it's epic pools (both ST and AE imo).

 

Psi is just an awkward set.  Insight is a mechanic that is both numerically mid AND not fun to manage.  The rng nature of acquiring it, plus the rng nature of the very weak psi dot, plus the long lockout period....The extra GPB dmg just does not compensate.  The lack of a secondary effect unifying theme is also not great (-recharge, disorient, hold, KD, KU) and just act to expand proc options.  Oh and Boggle isn't very good on a tank at least that probably won't need/want the kind of 'control' that can send mobs all over. I dunno, psi melee needs a lot of work.  

 

 

Edited June 13 by mcdoogss

[Aeroprism]

1 hour ago, mcdoogss said:

 

I'd agree with that.  Even then though, ML isn't numerically exceptional in any way compared to other sets T9 pbaoe.  Mechanically in real use I'd rank it near the bottom actually, especially during most of the game where the only other AOE is a cone.  This is due to the way it throws mobs around which causes constant repositioning. ML is fun, but psi melee overall is one of those sets that desperately needs help from it's epic pools (both ST and AE imo).

 

Psi is just an awkward set.  Insight is a mechanic that is both numerically mid AND not fun to manage.  The rng nature of acquiring it, plus the rng nature of the very weak psi dot, plus the long lockout period....The extra GPB dmg just does not compensate.  The lack of a secondary effect unifying theme is also not great (-recharge, disorient, hold, KD, KU) and just act to expand proc options.  Oh and Boggle isn't very good on a tank at least that probably won't need/want the kind of 'control' that can send mobs all over. I dunno, psi melee needs a lot of work.  

 

 

 

Yeah at this point, I ruled it out of my desired projects, at least until it gets revamped.

 

I ended up rolling a Stone/Fire and a Rad/Axe on top of my already awesome Elec/DM.  I should post pics to share the joy, this topic, just like the Scrapper equivalent I made, has been nothing but helpful and excellent.

 

Fun fact, the first team my Stone/Fire joined has a Psi Melee in it, it was a scrapper I think.  It was the very first time I saw and HEARD one.  When you've been playing this game forever and you suddenly hear a completely new powerset, you get curious 😄

 

Spoiler: Psi-Melee sounds weird AF  😄