Only Love Can Hurt So Much (Feedback)

[WhiteNightingale]

I want to start that I do appreciate all the work you put in keeping this fresh. Ok, on with the story arc:

 

Everything from the setup is a premise for vigilante heroes: Skulk around Crey facilities, (illegally) find out what's up and gather evidence on what they're doing, and then strike at the end. The story implies the protagonist is an unregistered vigilante since the Crime Fighting Act only enables registered heroes with the same faculties as cops.

 

Thus, what really baffled was the rather violent switch in approach at the end: The whole story's progress is based on the assumption of vigilantism so, what is Batman doing at a legal hearing? Batman doesn't answer subpoenas for a reason. He'd get arrested on the spot for breaking&entering, assault&battery, and industrial espionage (which is kinda what almost happens in Manticore's Task Force). If Crey was getting away with murder again, I'm sure the story didn't need you there standing like a chump. If it was necessary to show the mustache-twirling moment, audience could have been better served playing that last mission as the NPC contact.

 

While we're there, I'd like to provide some additional feedback from a trend I've noticed in prior blus side story arcs:

 

While Mr. Miller didn't delve deeper into the technicalities of CoH's legal system, Cryptic Studios never denied the fact CoH's inspiration came from their old Champions' game, so they may be assuming we know technicalities of Champions' Earth, like the fact that, while being an unregistered vigilante might be illegal, evidence provided by an unregistered vigilante IS still valid in court (because otherwise you couldn't have "Batman" heroes, which would be dumb in a SUPERHERO game).

 

And sure, in Superman stories, Lex Luthor is always back home for dinner, but this is attributed to (villain billionaire) having the courts in their pockets, not to "Superman or Daredevil being chumps," and even in stories where you fight The Man, and The Man can never be truly beat, those stories never put their emphasis in "durr hurr Superman is a chump," the emphasis is placed in "Superman saved fifty thousand lives." The emphasis is placed in the good the hero did, it's supposed to leave a good taste in your mouth. Another case in point: City of Heroes - on story arcs where Crey is involved, the end is always the same: Crey pins the whole thing on whichever executive they planned to fire that month anyway and the Countess never so much as touched the court, yet at the end, your contact placed emphasis on the good you did (ex: "You stopped Crey from brainwashing the populace with Creystations," or "you made public the truth about victim X").

 

That's all.

Edited July 24 by WhiteNightingale

[lemming]

4 hours ago, WhiteNightingale said:

technicalities of Champions' Earth

In the CU, that changed every so often, and I got the impression that the Champions game referenced was a homegrown world anyway.    Most campaigns I know didn't really delve into court room thought process and papered over it.

 

The last mission may be better as just a cut scene or something.  And the NDA thing, most NDAs that are about illegal things, aren't enforceable.

 

Superhero law is an odd creature.

 

The arc does supply a decent number of Crey related defeat badges though.

[WhiteNightingale]

8 hours ago, lemming said:

In the CU, that changed every so often

I wouldn't know, the only reference I have are 5E's main book and Champions Universe's, there they detail all changes in criminal law and due process to accomodate for superheroes and vigilantes' respective modus operandi (it's all in the sidebars).

 

(Granted, 6E made changes in 2015 to presciently predict the country's descent into fascism, like revoking personhood and civil rights from all synthetics, transdimensional-demonic, and undead people, but things like "how to keep Batman's concept valid" is still basics that must remain).

Edited July 25 by WhiteNightingale

[Rudra]

4 minutes ago, WhiteNightingale said:

I wouldn't know, the only reference I have are 5E's main book and Champions Universe's, there they detail all changes in criminal law and due process to accomodate for superheroes and vigilantes' respective modus operandi (it's all in the sidebards).

 

(Granted, 6E made changes in 2015 to presciently predict the country's descent into fascism, like revoking personhood and civil rights from all synthetics, transdimensional-demonic, and undead people, but things like "how to keep Batman's concept valid" is still basics that must remain).

The Dark Champions book goes into more detail about how superhero investigations are (not) submissible in court and other hero/vigilante interactions with the judicial system. (Basically, unless the hero universe is one where it is all sunshine and rainbows, heroes and good always triumph, then typically the last place a character with a secret ID wants to be is a court of law for any reason.)

[lemming]

Yea, while I have a lot of the 5E books, I was playing champs from first edition.   And while I think sixth edition is better, I also didn't get to play much.   I got the impression that the Champs game that they played was pre-5th and not the CU.

 

Anyway, we're way off topic. 😄

[WhiteNightingale]

41 minutes ago, Rudra said:

The Dark Champions book goes into more detail about how superhero investigations are (not) submissible in court and other hero/vigilante interactions with the judicial system.

Dark Champions' rules apply exclusively in Hudson, Champions' "grimdark city for the 90s." Here are the default rules on vigilantism, from Champions Universe, fifth edition, p.49 (emphasis mine):

[Rudra]

10 minutes ago, WhiteNightingale said:

Dark Champions' rules apply exclusively in Hudson, Champions' "grimdark city for the 90s." Here are the default rules on vigilantism, from Champions Universe, fifth edition, p.49 (emphasis mine):

Fair. I need to go back through the books then because the one I am thinking of talks about how a masked hero in court will be challenged by the defense to reveal their identity and push for the hero to be charged with unlawful search and seizure, breaking and entering, and a host of other charges by the defense to get the hero's testimony thrown out. Hence "then typically the last place a character with a secret ID wants to be is a court of law for any reason".

[WhiteNightingale]

In Champions, registered heroes can be called to testify in court, but they show up in costume and all they need is to show their unique powers as "proof of identity."

 

Blue King's CoH' graphic novel does a lampshade on this, referencing the time Apex' went to testify in civilian clothes, and the judge turned him away since he didn't believe it was him, and trial could only continue when he showed up in costume.

[Rudra]

You're right. I got my game systems mixed. I'm thinking Heroes Unlimited Revised page 230. Sorry.

[Luminara]

15 hours ago, WhiteNightingale said:

The whole story's progress is based on the assumption of vigilantism so, what is Batman doing at a legal hearing? Batman doesn't answer subpoenas

 

[WhiteNightingale]

1 hour ago, Luminara said:

 

[lemming]

Again, just because someone uses Champions as their game system, their legal systems may be quite different.

Steve Long did a good job in detailing a system for legal stuff, but there's enough differences that I don't think it works to use it as the reason.

 

In game, we reveal that Countess Crey is an imposter and there's more weirdness all over the place depending on where arcs are done, etc...

[ThatGuyCDude]

  

4 hours ago, WhiteNightingale said:

In Champions, registered heroes can be called to testify in court, but they show up in costume and all they need is to show their unique powers as "proof of identity."

 

Blue King's CoH' graphic novel does a lampshade on this, referencing the time Apex' went to testify in civilian clothes, and the judge turned him away since he didn't believe it was him, and trial could only continue when he showed up in costume.

A Hero showing up in court like that makes sense, because they are in possession of authority granted to them to carry out the pursuit of justice.  A Hero under those circumstances would require a search warrant to enter and examine a premises... just like a police officer, right?  The only difference then between a Hero and a regular officer is relative independence from the chain of command and the presence of preternatural ability.

The reason a Vigilante's evidence from an illegal seizure is admissible in court is because the seizure itself is evidence of *another* crime: an act of unsanctioned vigilantism.  I agree that such a Cape showing up to court would be a BAD idea: unlike the Hero who possessed the authority to pursue the case, the Vigilante is looking to face a mile-long list of charges the second he steps into the courthouse (as you described in your original post).  He could trade what he's found for immunity from prosecution depending on the prosecutor, but the criminal they're hoping to nail to the wall would have to be a BIG fish... and Lady Crey's a big fish who always slips the net.

So what makes the Batman scenario fall into the first category instead of the second?  In most instances Batman works in the same capacity as a private detective: when he comes across evidence he tips off Gordon and then the police obtain a warrant to search the location legally.  Heck, Gordon even has a signal to call Bats for help!  There's a degree of 'by the book' behind the Bat that helps soften the blow of his otherwise criminal actions.

But neither situation seems to apply in this case: I didn't get the impression of court in that last mission.  Rather, it struck me as typical arbitration: both sides agree to compromise to keep the matter OUT of the courts.

Spoiler

Freedom Corps basically blackmailed Lady Crey to get their data and personnel back, and in exchange they'd button their lips about her legal Achilles heel.  Ironically, these were things Crey had stolen in the first place.  The problem is that Lady Crey is the better negotiator: she framed the meeting to favor her advantages and ensured the other side of the table was ill-equipped to make demands.  How the evidence against her was acquired thus never comes into play... better legal minds could argue probable cause about an off-the-books laboratory in a warzone beneath a former government site, but they weren't at the table.

Having been through arbitration myself, it seemed a very typical outcome... you 'win' but you lose anyway.  Frankly, though, the corrupted video wasn't damning evidence... the real evidence was the presence of active Crey personnel in a facility that had nerve gas, but that got ruined by the Vigilante smash-and-search.  The irony there is that Ashling--in trying to beat Lady Crey at her own game by way of circumventing procedure--inadvertently helped her escape: had she been patient enough to pursue the lead through proper channels, Lady Crey'd have been boxed in with no recourse.

Still, this mission line feels more like the start of something rather than the end of it, so perhaps the conclusion is dissatisfying because it's meant to be a cliffhanger.

[WhiteNightingale]

5 hours ago, lemming said:

Again, just because someone uses Champions as their game system, their legal systems may be quite different.

I know, but since it's already the master mold Emmert and Miller used, and the document is already there well, why reinventing the wheel when someone else already went the whole nine yards 20 years ago? Could a team of geeky lawyers come up with an even better, more suitable law code to suit City of Heroes' alternate history fiction? Maybe, but I don't see a lot of hands raised to volunteer and I really, really need people to remember the superhero genre is not "the world outside your widow" (that comic school died along with the WTC towers), superhero worlds have their own laws, socio-political landscape, and even laws of physics. No fan of the genre reads comics for the "realisms." 

 

Neil Gaiman once complained about how adults mind caulk and try to explain how Superman's powers work while any seven-year old kid already knows the answer: "Because he's Superman dad, it's not real, that's how it works."

 

Batman's evidence is admitted in court because he's Batman. It's comics. Superheroes don't live on earth, and City of Heroes has a completely different history from Korea's war onwards.

Edited July 25 by WhiteNightingale

[Triumphant]

Quote

 

No fan of the genre reads comics for the "realisms." 

 

Neil Gaiman once complained about how adults mind caulk and try to explain how Superman's powers work while any seven-year old kid already knows the answer: "Because he's Superman dad, it's not real, that's how it works."

 

Batman's evidence is admitted in court because he's Batman. It's comics. Superheroes don't live on earth, and City of Heroes has a completely different history from Korea's war onwards.

 

 

This part, I think, may be relevant to how you're experiencing the story arc.  To a large degree, comic book storytelling seems to have matured quite a bit since its inception, and even since I was a kid growing up in the 80's (and reading many comics loaned or even given to me by my older uncles who owned issues printed in the 60's & 70's), so expectations from someone like myself may be very different (and much more forgiving) than someone that was weaned on stories from the early aughts onward (I'm not saying you are of this generation necessarily, and yes, I know we had the Watchmen, the Dark Phoenix Saga, and other good stuff.  But while it wasn't all bad writing, a great deal of it really was mostly just a bunch of guys running around and punching each other in the head).

 

I just recently finished the story arc and I did enjoy it.  While I acknowledge the fairness and accuracy of your criticism, I was not really bothered by the few bits of hackneyed writing to the same degree, perhaps because it cleaves more to the sorts of comics I read as a kid and also because my brain is perhaps trained to react to this sort of media similarly to the seven year old in your example above.  City of Heroes scratches that particular itch for me and if I want something more sophisticated, I look for it in shows like The Boys or The Umbrella Academy (or in RP super-group driven stories, or even TTRPG campaigns).

 

And since this topic is feedback on the arc itself, I would like to say I really like the Tron-esque environment towards the end of the story.  That would be a cool asset to have for building AE missions and Bases, for characters or groups exploring matrix/cyberpunk themes.  Oh!  And some of those Paragon Protector clones... very nasty!  Great work, there (I ran the arc with a lvl 45 scrapper at +2/2, if anyone is curious)!

[TheMoneyMaker]

Spider-man has been in court, and I believe he was taken at face value due to the demonstration of his powers.

 

 

[BrandX]

51 minutes ago, TheMoneyMaker said:

Spider-man has been in court, and I believe he was taken at face value due to the demonstration of his powers.

 

 

 

Wouldn't work anymore with so many other web swinging superheroes going around, including one who couldn't come up with their own hero name, so took his.

[Seed22]

The arc was…serviceable to me. I found some of the bits kind of interesting, like skulking around the crey labs to gather info on the Hero Corps members and cloning shenanigans. 
 

But overall, the arc didn’t stick with me. I found it to be a solid 6/10 maybe 7/10 if I really stretch it. Serviceable, but definitely not “Well dayum!” Probably because Crey stories are so overplayed in my eyes that I kind of tune out