ValiantBlu Posted August 7 Author Posted August 7 1 hour ago, Captain Fabulous said: I'm all for expanding visual options, this way people can look however they want. You want to look normal? Cool. You want to look like a space squid and lobster? Cool. You want some hybrid look? Still cool. Options are good, and having more options hurts no one. I just want to give this comment more visibility 1
Luminara Posted August 7 Posted August 7 1 hour ago, Rudra said: Sort of. Weapon attacks still call for weapons and shields still call for shields. And Kheldians get as much variety in their main (human) form as any other character. So they can still be any race currently, but their previous hosts were not so diverse in appearance. (Edit: And SoA Crab Spiders are still required to get that one Crab Spider backpack no matter what. They just get a color change option for it.) We're not transformed into Carnival Harlequins when we use Energy Ring Toss, or Freakshow when we use Stolen SMG. When I play one of my */Shield or Shield/* characters, the character's appearance isn't overlaid with costume which hides the one I've designed, nor am I forced to choose between having access to Shield powers and having a visible character model with a unique costume. None of my Archery characters have to activate a model swap toggle order to access the Archery attacks. Even Soldiers of Arachnos aren't forced to remain in Arachnos costume pieces beyond level 24. And if the intent is to imply that the character itself is weaponized, shouldn't all characters which are weaponized have model swaps? Why doesn't Super Strength change the character model to something beefy? Why doesn't Stone Melee overlay the character model with the rock golem one? Why doesn't my Street Justice/Shield scrapper look like Batgirl cosplaying Agent Carter? Where's the toggle that that turns a */Savage dominator into a space badger or multiversal octopus? There are melee primary and secondary sets, /Assault and /Manipulation sets, pool powers, *PP powers and temporary powers which treat the character as the weapon, via punches and kicks, but not one of them imposes a model swap. Except Kheldians, because... reasons. Yeah, anachronistic. 1 Get busy living... or get busy dying. That's goddamn right.
ValiantBlu Posted August 7 Author Posted August 7 (edited) 1 hour ago, kelika2 said: We been over this many times before, this is about vanity and power and not just vanity. You want that nipple-hardening high base damage and lust-provoking eroticism damage form bonus my own personal thought on this was to increase human form damage, but reduce target caps exactly like Sentinels this post is not here to taunt or antagonize you, its just how some of us treat the monthly threads like regen threads No you nailed it, I prefer my nipples hard rather than soft As someone else put it, one of this games selling points is looking the way you want So why do the HEATs disallow this? We can talk all day about how the changeling playstyle needs additional balance, but at the end of the day providing this as an option does nothing to change balance, nor does not providing this as an option. It's comments that portray the appearance changes as an actual drawback in terms of balance that are annoying because 1) they only prove this point and 2) they take the conversation well off topic TL;DR Balance this shit so it's balanced, not so it's ugly If the only thing keeping the class balanced is the necessary OP abilities are too ugly for most people to pick, that's not a balance choice, that's just a really bad design choice Edited August 7 by ValiantBlu
Rudra Posted August 7 Posted August 7 8 minutes ago, ValiantBlu said: The forms are not appearances, at least not appearance only As you stated, they come with modifications to stats. Nova form grants a to-hit buff as well as a damage buff, on top of having access to 4 attacks, all of which slot uniquely to their human counterparts Dwarf form grants resistance, as well as having access to 5 abilities that, again, slot uniquely to their human counterparts. They also all have separate cooldowns. For example a WS could transform into a dwarf, pop Black Dwarf Mire, transform back to human, pop Sunless Mire, both attacks are identical in function, AoE minor damage +dmg (self) I could also slot both Black Dwarf Mire and Sunless Mire with FotG -res, allowing me to stack 2 -res debuffs on top of my self damage buff from both Dwarf and Human form. Then transform to Nova, now with 2 damage buffs, enemies (may or may not) have 2 -res debuffs stacked on them, and go around blasting in Nova form with my Nova form damage buff. Please explain how I could accomplish this without taking either of the forms as abilities. Not being cute, like, please explain this so I can recreate it in game with a human-only WS. The forms are not their appearances, this statement serves only to reduce them to a cosmetic change, either by ignorance or malice; and as you've already stated there are stat differences between the forms, I can only rule out ignorance. Cosmetics are only one component of the forms, and (personally, as well as I'm sure others) the HEATs would be a lot more enjoyable if that component were removed. TL;DR More cosmetic options are literally never a bad thing. Except as you yourself said in this post, they are not just cosmetic options. You literally have to enable another suite of powers that you stack on top of the suite of powers your human form is using. The human form has its own version of everything the Nova form and Dwarf form have. So you can very much play a human form only and get access to all the same powers. I don't have a stake in this argument because I won't play a Kheldian. So I'm not arguing in favor of or against the OP. I'm letting others with a stake do that. All I am doing is pointing out that you are not asking for a minimal FX option, you are asking for how the power works to be changed. You can't use a particles effect slash command to make the Nova or Dwarf go away, so they won't go away with a minimal FX option. They can only go away if the power itself is changed, not the associated animation(s). I'm not going to argue the merits of having a separate Nova or Dwarf form appearance. On that argument, all I am saying is it is not a derailment of the thread to argue whether or not having those appearances is required or not. 1 1
Rudra Posted August 7 Posted August 7 (edited) 22 minutes ago, Luminara said: We're not transformed into Carnival Harlequins when we use Energy Ring Toss, or Freakshow when we use Stolen SMG. When I play one of my */Shield or Shield/* characters, the character's appearance isn't overlaid with costume which hides the one I've designed, nor am I forced to choose between having access to Shield powers and having a visible character model with a unique costume. None of my Archery characters have to activate a model swap toggle order to access the Archery attacks. Even Soldiers of Arachnos aren't forced to remain in Arachnos costume pieces beyond level 24. And if the intent is to imply that the character itself is weaponized, shouldn't all characters which are weaponized have model swaps? Why doesn't Super Strength change the character model to something beefy? Why doesn't Stone Melee overlay the character model with the rock golem one? Why doesn't my Street Justice/Shield scrapper look like Batgirl cosplaying Agent Carter? Where's the toggle that that turns a */Savage dominator into a space badger or multiversal octopus? There are melee primary and secondary sets, /Assault and /Manipulation sets, pool powers, *PP powers and temporary powers which treat the character as the weapon, via punches and kicks, but not one of them imposes a model swap. Except Kheldians, because... reasons. Yeah, anachronistic. Not arguing that either. All I am saying is that not all powers are divorced from their appearances. Some still require specific alterations to the character, be it a wielded weapon or a shield. Those requirements have a variety of options for what models they use, and so what appearances they have, but they still have that requirement. Edit: And as far as VEATs and their costume pieces go? Uhm, yes they are. They are still limited to the single Crab Spider backpack if they have any builds on that character that have Crab Spider abilities. (Edit again: We have the option of color changing the backpack, but we are still required to have the backpack.) Edit yet again: And as far as the Kheldians go? I would like to point out the obvious. The character's human form is the current character. The Nova and Dwarf are previous hosts from a specific planet where there wasn't the sheer variety of races like on Earth. One of the races, the Nova I think, is from a gas giant. So you shouldn't get to change the Nova or Dwarf based on the lore because those were past hosts. Not defined by the character, but defined by what the Kheldians did before getting to Earth. Edited August 7 by Rudra 1
Greycat Posted August 7 Posted August 7 7 minutes ago, ValiantBlu said: So why do the HEATs disallow this? Because unlike blasters, brutes, tanks, scrappers, controllers, sentinels, dominators, etc. which are meant to be blank slates for the player to do whatever they want with, Khelds are *tied to specific lore.* The "E" in HEAT. They are designed with that lore in mind and around that lore. That lore specifically how and why they go into shape shifting and what they shift to, even naming the original beings and giving them descriptions of where they come from to explain "why." Don't like said lore? Option is not to take the powers related to it - which, after all, makes slot placement much easier as you now have fewer powers to spread them around to. Yes, as far as I'm concerned, they are part and parcel of what makes a Kheld a Kheld. They should not be demoted to "it's like popping an inspiration for a buff, but it doesn't use an insp." 2 1 1 1 Kheldian Lore and Backstory Guide 2.0: HC edition Out to EAT : A look at Epic ATs - what is, could have been, and never was Want 20 merits? Got a couple of minutes? Mini guide to the Combat Attributes window
ValiantBlu Posted August 7 Author Posted August 7 2 minutes ago, Greycat said: Because unlike blasters, brutes, tanks, scrappers, controllers, sentinels, dominators, etc. which are meant to be blank slates for the player to do whatever they want with, Khelds are *tied to specific lore.* The "E" in HEAT. They are designed with that lore in mind and around that lore. That lore specifically how and why they go into shape shifting and what they shift to, even naming the original beings and giving them descriptions of where they come from to explain "why." Don't like said lore? Option is not to take the powers related to it - which, after all, makes slot placement much easier as you now have fewer powers to spread them around to. Yes, as far as I'm concerned, they are part and parcel of what makes a Kheld a Kheld. They should not be demoted to "it's like popping an inspiration for a buff, but it doesn't use an insp." Hilarious then I guess we can remove literally all buff powers from every powerset since, literally, every single one of them, is like popping an insp without using an insp Take your main, look at every single ability you have, and ask yourself, which of these would be unnecessary if I had unlimited inspirations As for the first part of your argument, is there a reason why every single Kheldian has the same 2 former hosts? As I've stated before, the most ideal solution would be to allow us to customize the transformations. Players looking for lore accurate Kheldian gameplay are free to not change the appearance, or change the appearance to some other alien they dream up and it would still be lore accurate. But you're right, all Kheldians should look exactly the same minus some very minor tinting. That's what makes them *epic* 1 4
Rudra Posted August 7 Posted August 7 (edited) 12 minutes ago, ValiantBlu said: As for the first part of your argument, is there a reason why every single Kheldian has the same 2 former hosts? Yes. It is explained in the Kheldian lore. 12 minutes ago, ValiantBlu said: or change the appearance to some other alien they dream up and it would still be lore accurate. No, it wouldn't, because where the Kheldians went is defined in the lore. What races were there and why they used them as hosts is defined in the lore. So to change those past hosts requires you to change the lore. Edit: It's like us looking at a wolf. Most people can't at a glance tell any differences between two grey wolves. The same goes for the Nova and Dwarf forms. They may have a wide variety of differences, but those differences are invisible to us because of lack of familiarity/understanding. Edited August 7 by Rudra 1 1 1 1
Greycat Posted August 7 Posted August 7 (edited) 16 minutes ago, ValiantBlu said: Hilarious then I guess we can remove literally all buff powers from every powerset since, literally, every single one of them, is like popping an insp without using an insp ... really stretching for some sort of argument there, aren't you. Foolish thing to say. But, hey, keep trying to deflect and make irrelevant arguments. Edit: Since you probably need an explanation of just how ridiculous this non-argument is: Other powersets are not designed with any lore in mind. They are meant to be whatever the player wants. Therefore, the buff powers *in* those powersets are.... just buff powers. Or heal powers, or whatever else they have. Therefore, their existence is completely irrelevant to the discussion. Kheld forms are tied to what Khelds *are,* as an Epic - IE, lore-based, per dev definition since live - AT. You get more resistance as a Dwarf (and lose multiple powers) because a Kheld can shift its shape to a prior host's form that had those specific powers and that specific form. Nova is not "build up." Unless I'm completely missing something where hitting build up or aim on a blaster makes you lose access to your melee attacks and nuke and grants you a travel power? No? Then no, they're not equivalent, and your argument *isn't one.* 16 minutes ago, ValiantBlu said: As for the first part of your argument, is there a reason why every single Kheldian has the same 2 former hosts? They don't. That's why taking those powers is ... wait for it... *optional.* Other people have figured that out since issue 3 on live. If you look at guides made for Khelds, you'll notice that they talk about "humanform" and "biform." That means... they did not take the other, or any, form. Amazing, I know. If you don't want your Kheld to look like a Hulmanim, then your Warshade didn't go there or merge with one of those beings. Go ahead, sit down, take a minute, I'm sure that blows your mind. And the hosts are not individuals. They are *entire races of beings* the Kheldians ran across. They are not copying Sam from maintenance and Eddie from engineering that everyone formed a conga line and merged with one at a time. They are copying *races of beings they ran across before coming to Earth.* You know, entire populations. And there are only two because game, time, and developer limitations. Especially with a fairly new dev team leading in to a very early issue on live. 16 minutes ago, ValiantBlu said: That's what makes them *epic* Epic has been *repeatedly explained over the years by the devs that came up with this* as being.... *tied to the lore.* I don't give a rat's rear if you don't like that. Try again. Or, better yet, don't. Edited August 8 by Greycat 3 2 Kheldian Lore and Backstory Guide 2.0: HC edition Out to EAT : A look at Epic ATs - what is, could have been, and never was Want 20 merits? Got a couple of minutes? Mini guide to the Combat Attributes window
Greycat Posted August 8 Posted August 8 57 minutes ago, Luminara said: We're not transformed into Carnival Harlequins when we use Energy Ring Toss, or Freakshow when we use Stolen SMG. When I play one of my */Shield or Shield/* characters, the character's appearance isn't overlaid with costume which hides the one I've designed, nor am I forced to choose between having access to Shield powers and having a visible character model with a unique costume. None of my Archery characters have to activate a model swap toggle order to access the Archery attacks. Even Soldiers of Arachnos aren't forced to remain in Arachnos costume pieces beyond level 24. And if the intent is to imply that the character itself is weaponized, shouldn't all characters which are weaponized have model swaps? Why doesn't Super Strength change the character model to something beefy? Why doesn't Stone Melee overlay the character model with the rock golem one? Why doesn't my Street Justice/Shield scrapper look like Batgirl cosplaying Agent Carter? Where's the toggle that that turns a */Savage dominator into a space badger or multiversal octopus? There are melee primary and secondary sets, /Assault and /Manipulation sets, pool powers, *PP powers and temporary powers which treat the character as the weapon, via punches and kicks, but not one of them imposes a model swap. Except Kheldians, because... reasons. Yeah, anachronistic. No standard AT has lore tied to it. That's why they're "standard" ATs, not epics. On top of it, the first things you mention are ... temporary powers, not yours. I wouldn't expect to be a world-class fighter pilot by putting on someone else's helmet. And no, your archery characters don't have to model swap, but you *do* need to pull out a bow. You don't have the option to throw arrows or project them from your nostrils. If the devs made a Freakshow EAT? Yes, I'd expect to have to look like a Freakshow and have plusses and minuses based on that. The post is utterly ridiculous. You can do better. 1 2 Kheldian Lore and Backstory Guide 2.0: HC edition Out to EAT : A look at Epic ATs - what is, could have been, and never was Want 20 merits? Got a couple of minutes? Mini guide to the Combat Attributes window
kelika2 Posted August 8 Posted August 8 1 hour ago, ValiantBlu said: TL;DR Balance this shit so it's balanced, not so it's ugly Sentinel, energy/fire and recolor everything to be kheldlike and larp as someone who copied the dna of a kheld but without the parasite if you get hung up in the names of the sets or at, thats on you. 4 1 1
ValiantBlu Posted August 8 Author Posted August 8 (edited) 3 hours ago, biostem said: If you remove the forced shapechange of Nova & Dwarf, then what they essentially become is bio armor's offensive or defensive modes, only with more steps and greater restrictions. If that's the case then that's even more reason why the HEATs need rework/rebalance That's not an argument against adding more cosmetic options, that's an argument against the class altogether Edited August 8 by ValiantBlu 1 2
Rudra Posted August 8 Posted August 8 2 minutes ago, ValiantBlu said: If that's the case then that's even more reason why the HEATs need rework/rebalance That's not an argument against adding more cosmetic options, that's an argument against the class altogether Kheldians have an established story for them. Bio Armor does not. Kheldians have specific enemies hunting them that only show up for the Kheldians except in a single mission that I know of where they can be found by others. Kheldians give players the ability to build their characters from 14 primary powers (not counting the added powers from Nova) and 13 secondary powers (not counting added powers from Dwarf), while Bio Armor characters get the standard 9 and 9. So how does Bio Armor invalidate the Kheldian HEATs? 1
ValiantBlu Posted August 8 Author Posted August 8 1 minute ago, Rudra said: Kheldians have an established story for them. Bio Armor does not. Kheldians have specific enemies hunting them that only show up for the Kheldians except in a single mission that I know of where they can be found by others. Kheldians give players the ability to build their characters from 14 primary powers (not counting the added powers from Nova) and 13 secondary powers (not counting added powers from Dwarf), while Bio Armor characters get the standard 9 and 9. So how does Bio Armor invalidate the Kheldian HEATs? If changing one cosmetic option makes them exactly the same, functionally, as a non EAT, but worse then yes, this is an argument against the class y'all keep saying "lore" like it justifies objectively bad choices you can have the last word, keep shouting nonsense 1
biostem Posted August 8 Posted August 8 10 minutes ago, ValiantBlu said: If that's the case then that's even more reason why the HEATs need rework/rebalance That's not an argument against adding more cosmetic options, that's an argument against the class altogether I suppose I should have been clearer with my statement - the "they" I mentioned was in reference to the Nova & Dwarf powers, respectively, NOT the AT as a whole... 1
Rudra Posted August 8 Posted August 8 19 minutes ago, ValiantBlu said: If changing one cosmetic option makes them exactly the same, functionally, as a non EAT, but worse then yes, this is an argument against the class y'all keep saying "lore" like it justifies objectively bad choices you can have the last word, keep shouting nonsense Just because you don't like what is being said does not render it nonsense. The game's lore drives a lot. Why the Freakshow are the way they are. Why Crey is the way it is. Where Arachnos comes from and why they do what they do. Where the Kheldians come from, what they did before they got here as a race, why they did what they did before getting to Primal Earth, why they hate the Nictus, why the Nictus focus so much effort on them, and even why they need hosts on Primal Earth. And to change or ignore that is to throw out a massive part of what explains the game and makes it what it is. 1 4 1 1
ValiantBlu Posted August 8 Author Posted August 8 19 minutes ago, biostem said: I suppose I should have been clearer with my statement - the "they" I mentioned was in reference to the Nova & Dwarf powers, respectively, NOT the AT as a whole... No I understood what you meant, but the ATs, imo, are balanced around the forms so I was definitely conflating the forms with the ATs The point of my comment was more to say that this is more of a balance problem than an aesthetic one 1
ValiantBlu Posted August 8 Author Posted August 8 4 minutes ago, Rudra said: Just because you don't like what is being said does not render it nonsense. The game's lore drives a lot. Why the Freakshow are the way they are. Why Crey is the way it is. Where Arachnos comes from and why they do what they do. Where the Kheldians come from, what they did before they got here as a race, why they did what they did before getting to Primal Earth, why they hate the Nictus, why the Nictus focus so much effort on them, and even why they need hosts on Primal Earth. And to change or ignore that is to throw out a massive part of what explains the game and makes it what it is. lore and gameplay are separate. This is the same reason why Goku in DBFZ can be beaten by Krillin The same reason why picking Superman in Injustice isn't an instant win You can respect the lore without ruining gameplay "I don't like the lack of cosmetic options in this cosmetic centered game" Quote lol, well, lore "I'd like to be able to edit my transformation into any alien I want" Quote no because lore "I'd rather not skip literally half my powerset to look a certain way" Quote but the lore It's not nonsense because I don't like it It's nonsense because you keep repeating yourselves like "lore" is a self-evident reason to make bad design choices, both visual design and gameplay design It's not 2 4
Rudra Posted August 8 Posted August 8 2 minutes ago, ValiantBlu said: Quote lol, well, lore 2 minutes ago, ValiantBlu said: Quote no because lore 3 minutes ago, ValiantBlu said: Quote but the lore If you're going to quote people, then don't change what they said. Remove what doesn't apply, sure, but don't change what was posted. Otherwise it isn't a quote. 3 minutes ago, ValiantBlu said: This is the same reason why Goku in DBFZ can be beaten by Krillin The same reason why picking Superman in Injustice isn't an instant win Those are fighting games. Using well established characters that are immediately recognized by a large number of individuals that are by no means balanced against/to each other. Having Superman fight Batman without any kryptonite is simply a dead Batman, and that makes for a very poor fighting game. This is an MMORPG where you aren't playing pre-established characters from DC, Marvel, or any other franchise. So there is no need to nerf one character into the ground for a 'fair' fight against another in a fighting game. 8 minutes ago, ValiantBlu said: "I don't like the lack of cosmetic options in this cosmetic centered game" Then ask for more cosmetic options for your character. Novas and Dwarfs though? Those aren't your character. Those are previous beings that your bound Kheldian remembers enough to be able to assume their form. 9 minutes ago, ValiantBlu said: "I'd like to be able to edit my transformation into any alien I want" No, your request was to be able to transform and use the powers without transforming. Previous threads asked to be able to change what previous races their Kheldian had bonded with. 11 minutes ago, ValiantBlu said: "I'd rather not skip literally half my powerset to look a certain way" Not even. Kheldians have 14 primary powers. Of those 14 primary powers, 1 is Bright Nova or Dark Nova. Bright Nova adds 4 attacks you do not have to devote power selections to. Even if you count the Nova form power itself with the Nova form attacks, that becomes 5 of 18. 4 of which were already available to the Kheldian without taking Nova, they just require power selections. Kheldians have 13 secondary powers. Dwarf has 4 powers. Even if you count the added powers from Dwarf, that makes it 5 of 17 powers. So not even close to half. 1 1
Greycat Posted August 8 Posted August 8 3 minutes ago, ValiantBlu said: It's not nonsense because I don't like it It's nonsense because you keep repeating yourselves like "lore" is a self-evident reason to make bad design choices, both visual design and gameplay design It's not It is a *LORE BASED* AT, with forms TIED TO THAT LORE. The reason you shift forms is *because of that same lore.* Are you aware of it at all? Yes, you're just dismissing *the reason for the AT's existence.* You know... *lore.* Because you don't like it. The same reason you're using for deciding it's a "bad" design choice, despite it being *fitting* and *appropriate* for what it's supposed to be. This is an MMO *RPG* - Role Playing Game. Setting, lore and backstory (and participating in areas of the story) are an integral part of that. So yes, whether you like it or not, it is important. Don't like that lore's a reason for things to be the way they are? Play an AT without any tied to it. Problem solved. Especially with sentinels being a thing. You have armors, range and melee damage. Varying degrees of control depending on sets. Don't have to worry about (there because of lore) Quantums or (there because of lore) Voids. Even though they've been nerfed to hell because "Why do I have this weakness, I don't care about the lore!" already and are now barely a threat worth noticing. Like it or not, *it is important to some of us, and is the reason we started playing them in the first place, including their limitations.* You don't care about it? You have other options out there. 2 Kheldian Lore and Backstory Guide 2.0: HC edition Out to EAT : A look at Epic ATs - what is, could have been, and never was Want 20 merits? Got a couple of minutes? Mini guide to the Combat Attributes window
Rudra Posted August 8 Posted August 8 Look at it this way: If you were to change the Kheldians so that your specific Kheldian never bonded with a Nova (whatever their race is called) or a Dwarf (whatever their race is called), then you will not get their powers. You want a lizard form instead of Nova? Okay, but then the Nova's Blast, Bolt, Detonation, and Scatter powers go away. Instead you get whatever natural abilities that lizard race had. You want a human instead of a Nova? Okay, you are another race after the human and you get to use the human's powers. So... uhm... Brawl.... Changing the Nova and Dwarf changes what powers those powers add. 1
Luminara Posted August 8 Posted August 8 47 minutes ago, Greycat said: No standard AT has lore tied to it. Whereas SoAs are lore-based and not forced to transform into a generic model in order to use their powers. Let's go ahead and look at that lore. Shadowstar has been on Earth for thousands of years, yet strangely, in all of that time, the Kheldians who arrived later never encountered another host. 2000-5000 years and not a single other alien species is compatible? Not one? Twilight's Son is the last of the Kheldians, from far in the future... and he still only has two forms... and we only see one, since he's an NPC. So the Kheldians are dashing about space like a cat with the zoomies for thousands more years, and still haven't encountered any other potential hosts? We know that those aren't the only potential hosts out there because the Battalion story line had them arriving from space, not an alternate Earth like the Rikti, and Battalion was going to give the people of Earth the choice of joining them or being obliterated. And the 2013 Lore AMA directly states that the Battalion are "a collaboration of thousands of alien races". So there are definitely other potential host species. Both Twilight's Son's back story and the Lore AMAs confirm that the Kheldians encountered the Battalion, so they had to have encountered other species which could act as hosts. Kheldians are specifically described as a space-faring species. They didn't come to Earth through a Portal Corp. portal, they came here from space. This is notable, because Kheldian lifespans are limited to 5-10 years. Even with their ability to travel at light speed and open wormholes to travel even faster, even with host bodies, they're not immortal. And they come from outside of this galaxy, which is a fucking huge distance to cross, even at the speed of light (100,000 light years across, 1000 light years thick, 8000 light years thick at the heart). They'd have to find new hosts from time to time while they were traveling, or die in transit. Even if they originated from somewhere nearer Earth, rather than the farthest point, they'd be out there for centuries before they got here, all but mandating that they find and utilize hosts along the way. Circling back to Shadowstar, her information tells us that they're not a "young" species. They developed the ability to merge with hosts, advanced science, technologies, and had their little Nictus split before humans discovered the inclined plane or the lever. We're talking about a space-faring species who was out there exploring for how many thousands of years before they came here? The lore says there are other things out there in space, and the lore says Kheldians are out there, zipping around in space. The lore does not say that they only ever found two other species suitable as hosts, it does say that there are other forms of life (at least two encountered by Kheldians and an unknown number ("thousands") absorbed by the Battalion), and scientifically speaking, it would be statistically nearly impossible for them to travel such great distances without changing hosts at least once in a while. They're an "old" species, they've been wandering around in space, they have a remarkably short lifespan... and they somehow managed to miss every other potential host along the way to Earth, which Battalion subsequently swallowed up, folded into their war machine? Not only does that stretch the boundaries of suspension of disbelief, it's also statistically unlikely that Kheldians would manage to make it to Earth and only find two other host species along the way. If compatible hosts were that rare, they all would've died before making it to Earth. So according to the lore, we should have many more forms to choose from. 48 minutes ago, Greycat said: And no, your archery characters don't have to model swap, but you *do* need to pull out a bow. You don't have the option to throw arrows or project them from your nostrils. I'm also not restricted to two generic weapon models. Or even two models period. I can have ten different bows, one for each costume slot. But a lobster is still a lobster, no matter how many costume slots I use. 3 1 Get busy living... or get busy dying. That's goddamn right.
Rudra Posted August 8 Posted August 8 (edited) 1 hour ago, Luminara said: Whereas SoAs are lore-based and not forced to transform into a generic model in order to use their powers. SoAs do have to use the Crab Spider backpack to use their Crab Spider attacks. (Edit again: And Arachnos Widows have to use Arachnos Widow Claws with that extendable blade for their melee attacks.) Kheldians do not have to transform into a generic model to use their powers, they use them in human form. They have to transform to a Nova to use the Nova's more powerful attacks and they have to transform into a Dwarf to use the Dwarf's abilities. Their own abilities? Nope, they can use as many of the 14/13 powers as their 24 power slots allows them to, with 1 of the 14 and 1 of the 13 being transformations into another species that provide their own abilities. 1 hour ago, Luminara said: 2000-5000 years and not a single other alien species is compatible? Not one? The lore says that they merged with multiple races over their existences. However, the devs did not provide those other races with their respective powers to PC Kheldians. Most likely because that would be a huge undertaking. And even if they did, they would not provide the same powers as the Nova or Dwarf. (Edit: And who knows how many of those other races provided no combat abilities to the bonded Kheldian? "You are a good host! Let us see what you can do! ... ... ... I see you can bleed and die... with your only ability being to spit a harmless glob 3 feet away... ... You are still a good host! I will not age or die while in your body and that is more important!") 1 hour ago, Luminara said: So according to the lore, we should have many more forms to choose from. You are correct. Per the lore, the Kheldians should have a great number of forms to choose from. (Edit: Though that does not mean those previous races' bodies were any good in combat without the Kheldian using his/her/their own attacks instead. And Kheldians have no need to transform into those bodies to use their attacks/abilities, because they are already using their own attacks/abilities in the player's character.) The problem with that being making all those forms with their respective powers. And maybe the reason why the Kheldians retain their Nova and Dwarf forms is because they are more similar to the Kheldians than more organic forms. I don't know, just guessing here. The practical reason is that making all those races the Kheldians merged with is a massive ask. The possible lore reason may be form compatibility after separation. Edit: And even if any given PC Kheldian had merged with humans prior to that player's current PB/WS character, they still would not use a transformation to turn into a human. Because the only thing the human race offers them is a safe harbor as a host body with no innate racial abilities that would help them fight. And even if they did for some reason choose to transform into a previous host human, they would still be using the exact same powers as that player's current character. For no benefit. No increase in power. No increase in durability. No anything. So that would be a wasted transformation. And transforming into the current character makes no sense because they can't bond multiple times to a single host. So the human form would be the only form for that character. No transformations that retained that character's appearance. Edited August 8 by Rudra And yet again to correct "PC" to "player". 1 1
ThatGuyCDude Posted August 8 Posted August 8 Except none of the lore Kheldians have to shapeshift to use any of the Nova or Dwarf powers. ShadowStar, Arakhn, Requiem, and Romulus use their full force without changing shape. The Council Galaxy troopers have complete access to Nova blasts too. Even the War Wolves--red-headed step-children though they may be--don't turn into Dwarves to muster their tremendous strength. In fact, the only Novas and Dwarves I can think of that actively use those forms in in-game content are nameless malevolent filler forces. I'm not arguing that Kheldians can't use their control of positive or negative energy to reshape the body of their host... but clearly not every Kheldian bothers resorting to that. What's the harm in letting a few of them fight with glowing eyes instead of lobster claws and squid tendrils? The important Kheldians we encounter do this already. 1
Rudra Posted August 8 Posted August 8 (edited) 27 minutes ago, ThatGuyCDude said: Except none of the lore Kheldians have to shapeshift to use any of the Nova or Dwarf powers. ShadowStar, Arakhn, Requiem, and Romulus use their full force without changing shape. The Council Galaxy troopers have complete access to Nova blasts too. Even the War Wolves--red-headed step-children though they may be--don't turn into Dwarves to muster their tremendous strength. In fact, the only Novas and Dwarves I can think of that actively use those forms in in-game content are nameless malevolent filler forces. I'm not arguing that Kheldians can't use their control of positive or negative energy to reshape the body of their host... but clearly not every Kheldian bothers resorting to that. What's the harm in letting a few of them fight with glowing eyes instead of lobster claws and squid tendrils? The important Kheldians we encounter do this already. Are they using Nova or Dwarf without transforming? Or are they using their Nictus powers and are more powerful because they are AVs? (It's because they are AVs.) And War Wolves aren't using Dwarf strength. They don't even have a complete Nictus in them to be able to tap into a Nictus recalled form transformation. Just a shard that is being used to amplify their physical strength. The Kheldians players play are using their full force too. And they even amplify that force with the help of enhancements. However, they aren't AVs. Just like a Psychic Blast Blaster uses their full force, but Penelope Yin and Clockwork King hit harder. They have the advantage of being AVs/Heroes. Edit: And the Galaxies aren't using Nova powers. They are using Nictus powers. For instance: Galaxy Archon Warshade Gravimetric Snare Gravimetric Snare (T3) Shadow Blast Shadow Blast (T5) Gravity Well Gravity Well (T9) Sunless Mire Sunless Mire (T7) Essence Drain Essence Drain (T10) Star Punch Does not have a matching power even in Dwarf or Nova (Go Council) Shadow Slip Shadow Slip (T10 secondary) Stygian Circle Stygian Circle (T8 secondary) Stygian Return Stygian Return (T12 secondary) Umbral Shield Is all Warshade shield powers merged. Not even Dwarf has a match. Absorption Absorption (T1 secondary) Edit again: Arakhn: Ebon Eye Ebon Eye (T2) Gravimetric Snare T3 Gravity Well T9 Essence Drain T10 Gravitic Emanation T11 Quasar Does not having a matching power even in Dwarf or Nova Stygian Circle T8 secondary Inky Aspect Inky Aspect (T11 secondary) Resistance It's good to be an AV, isn't it? Edited August 8 by Rudra
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