Minimal FX Kheld Forms

[biostem]

3 minutes ago, Seed22 said:

I have a WS and PB at 50+1 triform. Cite that shit in the lore or please stop quoting me thank you

See my response to ScarySai above.  Oh, and I will quote whomever I want, when and wherever I want.  You're welcome.

[Videra]

1 minute ago, biostem said:

Locking out most of your other powers *is* a pretty significant downside.  Now who doesn't appear to have played them?

 

 

. . . Bro.

[ScarySai]

6 minutes ago, biostem said:

"Lore" also includes developer intent and implementation.

 

No, you don't get to misuse terms when you're backed into a corner. You are now arguing the design of the game, and not the written lore for kheldians. Additionally, your assumptions of developer intent are not an argument.

Edited August 15 by ScarySai

[biostem]

Just now, ScarySai said:

No, you don't get to misuse terms when you're backed into a corner. You are now arguing the design of the game, and not the written lore for kheldians. Your assumptions of developer intent are not an argument.

Who wrote the lore, genius?  Who implemented it in-game?  You don't think that the devs could have allowed for a "No FX" option, or not forced you to shapeshift, if they didn't intentionally want that to be part of the AT?

[Seed22]

13 minutes ago, biostem said:

See my response to ScarySai above.  Oh, and I will quote whomever I want, when and wherever I want.  You're welcome.

I’ll block your ass so no the fuck  you won’t.

 

*Edited because the last bit will get me no no points. Still applies if you read it bio.

 

 

Edited August 15 by Seed22

[ScarySai]

4 minutes ago, biostem said:

Who wrote the lore, genius?

 

Michael Lewis, who is not a developer.

 

I'm curious if you conflate lore with game design for every gameplay change, or if this is just a kheldian thing. 

 

Alright, I'm done, you've had enough and I said I'd stop.

Edited August 15 by ScarySai

[biostem]

1 minute ago, ScarySai said:

Michael Lewis, who is not a developer.

 

I'm curious if you conflate lore with game design for every gameplay change, or if this is just a kheldian thing.

Do... do you think that "developer" only means "coder"?  Even if details about Kheldians originated in a PnP or other such written source, it is the "developers" who interpret and adapt it to the game.

[Seed22]

6 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

 

Michael Lewis, who is not a developer.

 

I'm curious if you conflate lore with game design for every gameplay change, or if this is just a kheldian thing.

But what gets me, is how is he going to cite the lore to back his argument, then proceed to show they don’t even KNOW who wrote the lore? I’m so confused. Thats like showing up to a court case with an argument and not having any supporting evidence or witnesses to cross examine? Then acting like a literal child when called out.

 

I know it’s 2024 but goddamn dude do better.

 

*Edit: He STILL hasn’t linked an article supporting his argument. No wonder he’s malding this hard. I’d be melting down if I was pulling shit from my ass and getting called on it too.

Edited August 15 by Seed22

[Videra]

2 minutes ago, biostem said:

Do... do you think that "developer" only means "coder"?  Even if details about Kheldians originated in a PnP or other such written source, it is the "developers" who interpret and adapt it to the game.

 

You have yet to cite your source, regarding 'lore' being your reason for arguing against a simple cosmetic change.

[Indystruck]

10 minutes ago, biostem said:

Who wrote the lore, genius?  Who implemented it in-game?  You don't think that the devs could have allowed for a "No FX" option, or not forced you to shapeshift, if they didn't intentionally want that to be part of the AT?

  

17 minutes ago, Indystruck said:

Actually, much like before we got power customization to the level we got them, they described the process of changing the Kheldian forms around as a living nightmare.

 

[Videra]

Indy out here being based, as always.

[ScarySai]

7 minutes ago, Seed22 said:

But what gets me, is how is he going to cite the lore to back his argument, then proceed to show they don’t even KNOW who wrote the lore?

 

I'm guessing, to be fair, because I don't believe it's documented anywhere who wrote the kheld stuff specifically, besides the early draft of the lore doc that isn't canon to what we ended up getting.

 

But if someone can't cite a source and continues being an annoyance over a simple qol change, just disregard them as a troll and move on. I'm tired of this childish shit, frankly.

 

Most people would like the change, it's a good change, it's optional and it doesn't conflict with lore. That's an easy win.

Edited August 15 by ScarySai

[Seed22]

To get things back on track: I’m very interested to see a dev weigh in on this. Just how difficult would this be on a technical level?

 

*I am asking for a DEV’s response. Not one of you armchair lore hounds.

 

I’m thinking it could be like the original power cust; a few years out but technically doable. But of course I don’t code. I’m simply basing it off of how perceptions and barriers were shattered by innovation and new tech with the AE ststem and Power Customization originally

Edited August 15 by Seed22

[Indystruck]

  

Just now, Seed22 said:

To get things back on track: I’m very interested to see a dev weigh in on this. Just how difficult would this be on a technical level?

 

*I am asking for a DEV’s response. Not one of you armchair lore hounds.

 

I am, obviously, not a dev, but I assume it has to be harder than the weapon holster point stuff that's been constantly causing little issues with weapons animations and drawing, because weapons are technically NPCs so some stuff was just done in a very jank way. Generally anything the devs went "oh no, we're not doing that, that's a nightmare" was possible, but, it was after yeaaaaars.

 

Also Khelds were the least played/2nd least played AT (assuming we can extrapolate our stats for ATs to live, which seems fair, as they were initially level locked and VEATs wouldn't have existed for a while to then become the least played) so you'd have to look at it from the point of "is the work we put into this worth the time allotted and our current budget," which was probably a no.

[ScarySai]

I believe it was commented at some point that the jojo stand approach to kheld forms is feasible, which would inherently imply that minfx forms by themselves are very much in the realm of possibility.

[biostem]

10 minutes ago, Videra said:

You have yet to cite your source, regarding 'lore' being your reason for arguing against a simple cosmetic change.

I answered this in my response to ScarySai.

[Videra]

1 minute ago, biostem said:

I answered this in my response to ScarySai.

 

You did not, in-fact, cite a source. Show your source. Link it.

[Greycat]

38 minutes ago, biostem said:

Locking out most of your other powers *is* a pretty significant downside.  Now who doesn't appear to have played them?

 

You seem to be interpreting lore in a very literal way.  "Lore" also includes developer intent and implementation.  Kheldians were introduced in 2005, and in the 7 years before the game shut down, their forms were never changed, even though power customization was implemented long before.  This means that the devs, who were fully capable of doing so, never provided such options.

 

So, since I've slowly been working on that "Kheld backstory guide update," which requires things like... looking through the sources and what actually *makes* a Kheld, from the developers intent, after all:

 

The Kheldian backstory bible specifically says they change their *form.* Not their arms. Not their powers. Not how curly their nose hair is. That they've done so since before they had an actual civilization - they changed *form,* not just part of their bodies, to move between the rocks that formed the rings they actually lived in around the planet of Kheldia. It's *very* specifically mentioned that way. (Edit: In fact, it's even presented as a choice - they use their energy, OR they change their form. If the intent was "They just shift part of their form to direct energy," it would have been stated differently. So even this early, *it's an obvious choice.*)

 

"Form" for khelds, in game, is that entire look. Upsides (buffs) and downsides (fewer powers.) You know, the ... whole-body shape shift that Khelds do.

 

That's been there since *before they were released.* It is, therefore, integral to the AT.

 

Nowhere is it mentioned "Oh, they just change their feet" or "They just alter powers for what they need." The exact opposite is implied by the very deliberate description of changing *form.* Even later sources stick to that - there was never a developer change in attitude that, oh, they only change X. Even the later description of *how they travel between stars* relies *specifically* on the differences between the forms (using the pure-energy "native" form to get to, or close to, light speed, then suddenly switching to the very massive Dwarf form - *specifically because of its mass* - to (*handwavey-comic-book-explanation*) essentially form a wormhole *right there* to get them where they're going. (Source: Email with Floating Fat Man, original COH forums, from the developer Avatea, quoted in my *original* Kheld backstory guide.)

 

If there were ever intent to have them take on properties *without changing form,* much like... oh... taking Dwarf without swapping that physical form, they could very simply have said "They alter their mass and makeup." Which is a different sort of shape shifting... and obviously not what Kheldians do.

 

And yes, anyone saying "Forms don't have downsides" definitely doesn't sound like they've played a Kheld. Then again, the person you're quoting, well... there's a reason they're on ignore.

Edited August 15 by Greycat
tweaking to describe the rings more clearly.

[Indystruck]

Kheldians are established to bond with hosts and be able to energy copy prior hosts. Due to dev limitations as it is not feasible to design multiple unique prior hosts, we get the Nova and the Kurukt/Ruktur (lobster). Now, having kheldian shapeshifter effects assigned to your own costumes so I could do something like make a big metallic alien bear or something for my lobster form and then maybe decide "I like nova, I'll keep that one" would be great.

 

Also, thank you Sai, Videra, and Luci for showing how great khelds can be a 4* content. Nice to see the AT shine.

[ScarySai]

1 hour ago, Greycat said:

The Kheldian backstory bible specifically says they change their *form.* Not their arms. Not their powers. Not how curly their nose hair is. That they've done so since before they had an actual civilization - they changed *form,

 

Kheldians are balls of pure energy, this passage is not referring to shapeshifting, FYI.

Edited August 15 by ScarySai
typo, lol.

[Owl Girl]

my favourite part of this entire thread is the lore purists huffing about how we should just do away with kheldians all together unless every single person plays the way the huffers should play. it contributes Nothing productive and is based off of an irrelevant argument, but i still love it!

obviously the easiest solution for this issue is to allow as much player freedom as possible and if lore purists don't like anything outside of the original forms then they can just not customize beyond that point. it's an easily solved problem, the only hitch is that it would require some people to get over themselves which i realize is a pretty big ask for some types. don't like that a person can have a rikti plasma rifle for their Assault Rifle that shoots bullets? good, don't use that option then. don't like that a person can just talk to Null the Gull to change alignment willy-nilly and face no sort of consequence or difficulty from contacts on either side? fine, then just don't use that option. it literally takes Nothing from anybody to allow additional customization but some people literally want to impose their play preferences on other people or else watch the world burn.

relax, let go, let other people have their fun and get out of their business already!

[Owl Girl]

every time greycat thumbs down my comments, it only increases my rep and my power level. being thumbed down by those Who huff is actually a great honour in my culture ❤️

[Aracknight]

Tangental q that may have been asked but missed by me: how do the tier 3 prestige costumes that add the peacebringer and warshade eye and bubble auras to *any* character change the various perspectives on what should and shouldnt be allowed for the sake of customization, if at all?

[Greycat]

15 minutes ago, Aracknight said:

Tangental q that may have been asked but missed by me: how do the tier 3 prestige costumes that add the peacebringer and warshade eye and bubble auras to *any* character change the various perspectives on what should and shouldnt be allowed for the sake of customization, if at all?

 

... it's a halloween costume. Impact: 0

[Owl Girl]

i guess the lore really can survive players having fun then? the possibilities seem so endless now...