Antagonist group types

[Techwright]

I use the word "Antagonist" in the title as I realize an opponent group might appear anywhere on the morality scale.

 

I got wondering if there are any antagonist group types that show up in Marvel, DC, or other popular comics that we don't currently have an analog for in the game.  Just looking at blue side we've got an elemental group (Outcasts), dark (Skulls), dark magic (CoT), insane biological science (Vahzilok), cybernetic (Freaks), assassin (Knives of Artemis), mercenary and pirate (Sky Raiders), black ops (Malta), etc.  A couple from the red side would be the sea society (Coralax), and an intelligent animal society (Snakes).  Mirror universe is obviously Praetorians, and a certain less-obvious one I'll not spoil for new players, as it is part of the mission storylines. 

 

What group type might the game not have tapped yet?

 

Also, do we have a "just cause" antagonist group like Marvel's Brotherhood of Mutants often considers itself to be?  Or a "downtrodden" group like Marvel's Morlocks?  I'm drawing a blank on both.

[Seldom]

'Downtrodden" Is totally the Lost already.

 

Things I can think of:
'Heroic' mercs: (super-squads that are purely in it for profits) these could be grey area, sometimes helping, sometimes at odds. Not associated with a giant organization like crey or Malta, but more like the 'Rogue island villains' that show up. Named hero bosses and their support crew in spandex but doing everything for the Benjamins.
You could see them both in the city fighting crime, and threatening store owners who hadn't paid their monthly protection fees.

Edited August 30 by Seldom

[JKCarrier]

"Just cause" - Scrapyarders, maybe?

[Frozen Burn]

56 minutes ago, Techwright said:

Also, do we have a "just cause" antagonist group like Marvel's Brotherhood of Mutants often considers itself to be?  Or a "downtrodden" group like Marvel's Morlocks?  I'm drawing a blank on both.

 

The "Just cause" groups are: 

• The Malta - they are fanatics who believe they are superior to all supers and want to control all super-powered individuals. 
• As mentioned by @JKCarrier, Scrapyarders and Dockworkers to some degree, but they are more like the "working man / unioners" fighting for their own rights.  
• 5th Column, Council, Axis America - they are fighting for their own fanatical cause which they think is "just."

"Downtrodden" can be Lost as mentioned above but also Ghouls, Failed Experiments, and Forlorn.

 

"Dark Magic" also should include Banished Pantheon.

 

Other groups not mentioned: 

• Organized Crime - Family, Mooks, Arachnos, Tsoo, Gold Brickers (although many groups also fall into this category to some degree)
• Aliens - Rikti, Shivans, Nictus, Peacebringers, Hydra
• Nature itself - Devouring Earth and the Hamidon, Igneous, Slag Golems 
• Supernatural - ghosts, spectres, spirits, apparitions, drudges, animus arcana, nightmares
• Evil Mastermind with plans within plans - Nemesis
• The Crazies - Carnival of Shadows/Vegenace/War, Crazed, The Awakened (to some degree)
• Celestial Super Beings - Lanaruu and Rularuu
• Technological - Clockwork, Nemesis
• Corporate - Crey, Cage Consortium, Syndicate

[Techwright]

9 hours ago, Seldom said:

'Downtrodden" Is totally the Lost already.

 

Things I can think of:
'Heroic' mercs: (super-squads that are purely in it for profits) these could be grey area, sometimes helping, sometimes at odds. Not associated with a giant organization like crey or Malta, but more like the 'Rogue island villains' that show up. Named hero bosses and their support crew in spandex but doing everything for the Benjamins.
You could see them both in the city fighting crime, and threatening store owners who hadn't paid their monthly protection fees.

Thanks for that! 

Heroic mercs sounds very much like Hero Corps, which admittedly have almost no fighting presence in the game.  (The wiki lists 3 named bosses, but that appears to be it.)

 

Good call with the Lost being the "downtrodden".

 

 

 

9 hours ago, JKCarrier said:

"Just cause" - Scrapyarders, maybe?

Works for me!

 

8 hours ago, Frozen Burn said:

 

The "Just cause" groups are: 

• The Malta - they are fanatics who believe they are superior to all supers and want to control all super-powered individuals. 
• As mentioned by @JKCarrier, Scrapyarders and Dockworkers to some degree, but they are more like the "working man / unioners" fighting for their own rights.  
• 5th Column, Council, Axis America - they are fighting for their own fanatical cause which they think is "just."

"Downtrodden" can be Lost as mentioned above but also Ghouls, Failed Experiments, and Forlorn.

 

"Dark Magic" also should include Banished Pantheon.

 

Other groups not mentioned: 

• Organized Crime - Family, Mooks, Arachnos, Tsoo, Gold Brickers (although many groups also fall into this category to some degree)
• Aliens - Rikti, Shivans, Nictus, Peacebringers, Hydra
• Nature itself - Devouring Earth and the Hamidon, Igneous, Slag Golems 
• Supernatural - ghosts, spectres, spirits, apparitions, drudges, animus arcana, nightmares
• Evil Mastermind with plans within plans - Nemesis
• The Crazies - Carnival of Shadows/Vegenace/War, Crazed, The Awakened (to some degree)
• Celestial Super Beings - Lanaruu and Rularuu
• Technological - Clockwork, Nemesis
• Corporate - Crey, Cage Consortium, Syndicate

 

An excellent list of group types!  Thank you for that contribution!

 

What about a "Lost World" type?  This would be something like Gorilla City in DC Comics or residents of the Savage Land in Marvel Comics.  Outside comics, there's the Sleestak of Land of the Lost. You might also add in lost Roman legions in the heart of Africa in the Tarzan stories.  Basically this kind of group is previously unknown, often highly skilled in older weapons (though not always. sometimes they're more advanced but living in a primitive environment).  The concept stems from the Lost Worlds genre.   The closest I can think of is Chimerorans, but that's not so much a discovery of a lost civilization as returning to a previous civilization using time.

[biostem]

I don't think we have a full-fledged and high level spandex/costume-wearing group, all of which possess super powers - CoH seems to lean very much into the tech or magic, rather than straight-up mutants...

[FFFF]

3 hours ago, biostem said:

I don't think we have a full-fledged and high level spandex/costume-wearing group, all of which possess super powers - CoH seems to lean very much into the tech or magic, rather than straight-up mutants...

This is what I would like to see as well.
 

A group of supers led by a charismatic leader (Magneto is a great example) who use their superpowers to commit acts of terrorism. Their ethos justifies these acts due to perceived persecution and discrimination against their kind. 
 

The COH/COV equivalent of Dr. Doom is Lord Recluse. A super scientist/arcane dabbler who uses gadgets, his formidable intellect and henchmen to thwart heroes. 
 

Religious-themed supers are the Luddites and the Legacy Chain. You can argue that the descendants of Mu, the Banished Pantheon and the Coralax fit into this group too. 
 

One type of enemy group I’d like to see are supers sponsored by nation states other than Paragon or the Rogue Isles. In Marvel, you have UK, Canada, Far East-bases heroes for example. 

Edited August 31 by FFFF
Spelling, clarity

[Frozen Burn]

6 hours ago, Techwright said:

What about a "Lost World" type?  This would be something like Gorilla City in DC Comics or residents of the Savage Land in Marvel Comics.  Outside comics, there's the Sleestak of Land of the Lost. You might also add in lost Roman legions in the heart of Africa in the Tarzan stories.  Basically this kind of group is previously unknown, often highly skilled in older weapons (though not always. sometimes they're more advanced but living in a primitive environment).  The concept stems from the Lost Worlds genre.   The closest I can think of is Chimerorans, but that's not so much a discovery of a lost civilization as returning to a previous civilization using time.

 

I see the Lost World types as:

• Black Knights and Spirit Stalkers in Night Ward.  They are primitive weaponry and are just out there in nature hunting and doing what they do.
• Also to a lesser degree, the entirety of First Ward (minus the DUST).  While there is some tech, it's not as advanced as the rest of Praetoria as they are just trying to survive in the Hamidon / DE riddled zone.   
• I think the Talons of Vengeance and Knives of Vengeance also may fall into this category.

[High_Beam]

DO NOT trust Rebecca Foss and her Hero Corps mercenaries.  She has been in league with Countess Crey from the jump and will, in time, prove themselves as the traitors of humanity.

[JackMars]

Coralax are the closest to the Lost World types. They're basically CoH version of Atlanteans.

[Spaghetti Betty]

There are a severe lack of tech wizards that aren't of the retro sci fi, grunge cybertech, or super spy flavor. I think we could use some futuristic, cyberpunk supernerds!

[Techwright]

17 hours ago, FFFF said:

 

A group of supers led by a charismatic leader (Magneto is a great example) who use their superpowers to commit acts of terrorism.

 

There would be those in the Isles who say this fits Ms Liberty and Longbow to a "T".  😉

 

17 hours ago, FFFF said:

One type of enemy group I’d like to see are supers sponsored by nation states other than Paragon or the Rogue Isles. In Marvel, you have UK, Canada, Far East-bases heroes for example. 

I think we actually have one, though it's small, incomplete, and certainly not combat ready.  I'm referring to W.I.S.D.O.M.  the Korean superhero group that Mirror Spirit and Foreshadow are a part of.  I've stated it on the forums before: I'd like this group to be completed, and brought with vigor into the game.   But yes, foreign-sponsored groups would be a welcome sight, and would be a natural, given that Paragon City is ground zero for dimensional portal activity that affects the entire planet.

 

2 hours ago, Spaghetti Betty said:

There are a severe lack of tech wizards that aren't of the retro sci fi, grunge cybertech, or super spy flavor. I think we could use some futuristic, cyberpunk supernerds!

Are you referring to something like the Techno-mages of Babylon 5's franchise?  Assuming I'm not making a now-obscure reference.

[Frozen Burn]

2 hours ago, Spaghetti Betty said:

There are a severe lack of tech wizards that aren't of the retro sci fi, grunge cybertech, or super spy flavor. I think we could use some futuristic, cyberpunk supernerds!

 

Aren't the Vanguard Wizards, Sorcerers, and Magicians all techno-magic?  They may not be to the degree you are thinking of, but aren't they in the techno-magic arena?

[Spaghetti Betty]

1 hour ago, Techwright said:

Are you referring to something like the Techno-mages of Babylon 5's franchise?  Assuming I'm not making a now-obscure reference.

 

54 minutes ago, Frozen Burn said:

Aren't the Vanguard Wizards, Sorcerers, and Magicians all techno-magic?  They may not be to the degree you are thinking of, but aren't they in the techno-magic arena?

Maybe I used the term "tech wizard" poorly! I was thinking more along the lines of things like Ghost in the Shell, or even the more recent Cyberpunk 2077. Something more in the realm of "integrates technology and AI to become something more than human - so much so that the line between human and machine becomes blurred".

 

My understanding of CoH lore isn't the greatest, but I don't see tons of instances of this outside of the Freakshow, and I consider them more in the "grungy cybertech" territory.

[Frozen Burn]

40 minutes ago, Spaghetti Betty said:

 

Maybe I used the term "tech wizard" poorly! I was thinking more along the lines of things like Ghost in the Shell, or even the more recent Cyberpunk 2077. Something more in the realm of "integrates technology and AI to become something more than human - so much so that the line between human and machine becomes blurred".

 

My understanding of CoH lore isn't the greatest, but I don't see tons of instances of this outside of the Freakshow, and I consider them more in the "grungy cybertech" territory.

 

Ah, yeah.  Agreed.  We do not have anything super AI / cybernetic other than what we make ourselves in the costume creator and our own back stories.  Something from Praetoria could be easily made into that since they have the tech and know-how - they just need to blend clockwork with humans!  😄    

[bertboxer]

would the cimeroans count as the 'lost world' group? i'm not clear if your character is actually time traveling to the past to see them or if they are just secluded where they are in the present though

[Techwright]

10 hours ago, bertboxer said:

would the cimeroans count as the 'lost world' group? i'm not clear if your character is actually time traveling to the past to see them or if they are just secluded where they are in the present though

Time travel is the actual means to get to Cimerora.  Spoiler comment:

Spoiler

It is actually discussed by Mender Silos that Oroborous is at least nominally aware that the Midnighter's Club has been time traveling to Roman days, and the Big O is not happy about it.

 

As to whether they are a Lost Worlds group...hmm...I personally don't think so, though I'm sure there are reasonable counterpoints to be made. 

 

Lost Worlds genre material tends to focus on cities, civilizations, and environments that are in the same time period as the book's "civilized" societies, but so secluded as to be unknown to them, and lacking in parallel development.  The Edgar Rice Burroughs Tarzan series has some of these, such as a Roman city still functioning as it has for the last 2000 years (if I recall correctly as its been decades since I read the books).  Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's Professor Challenger series began with an environmental lost word, a journey to a plateau with living dinosaurs previously unknown to the Victorian world in the book titled (specifically enough) The Lost World.  A modern counterpart might be the 1995 movie The Last of the Dogmen in which a tracker and a professor stumble across a secret, walled-in valley, previously unobserved, where a tribe of Native Americans have been living in the same manner as their ancestors for the past few hundred years.  There's no time travel involved, just a singular entrance and a wall of rugged hills to hide a valley and thereby the tribe, arresting their potential for development.

 

One counterpoint to be made would be the Sid & Marty Krofft 1970s production Land of the Lost, which many see as part of the Lost Worlds group.  In it, only the entrance to the land is in the modern world.  The show calls the travel devices encountered "time doorways" but that is misleading.  As Wikipedia notes;

Though the term "time doorway" is used throughout the series, Land of the Lost is not meant to portray an era in Earth's history, but rather an enigmatic zone whose place and time are unknown. Indeed, within the first few minutes of the pilot, the Marshall family father tells his children that he spotted three moons in the sky.

Edited September 6 by Techwright

[Force Redux]

On 8/31/2024 at 2:44 PM, Techwright said:

There would be those in the Isles who say this fits Ms Liberty and Longbow to a "T".  😉

 

I think we actually have one, though it's small, incomplete, and certainly not combat ready.  I'm referring to W.I.S.D.O.M.  the Korean superhero group that Mirror Spirit and Foreshadow are a part of.  I've stated it on the forums before: I'd like this group to be completed, and brought with vigor into the game.   But yes, foreign-sponsored groups would be a welcome sight, and would be a natural, given that Paragon City is ground zero for dimensional portal activity that affects the entire planet.

 

Are you referring to something like the Techno-mages of Babylon 5's franchise?  Assuming I'm not making a now-obscure reference. 

Would love to see W.I.S.D.O.M. added