Immobilization and lower-ranked bosses

[Techwright]

I confess that I'm not one to wring every last bit of data from a character, but sometimes I'll admit that I could use a better understanding of some particular function.  Let me set the stage for two questions:

 

I'm currently playing a level 50vet2 dominator with fire/ice powers.  Although I'll focus on him, I believe I've seen the situation involving my question with other characters, though I couldn't cite specifics at the moment.   I use both Fire Cages and Ring of Fire constantly.  Each is currently fitted with one Single Origin level 50 immobilization enhancement.  As I climbed the security levels ladder, I'd noted that bosses always shrugged off the immobilization effect of Fire Cages, but were snagged by Ring of Fire.  No big deal to me, as I know I'm taking on NPCs equal or greater in rank. 

 

Now, though, I've taken the dom to Perez Park to Kill Skuls for my badges.   I've noticed, despite them being 40+ levels beneath me, that Bone Daddies and other bosses are still shrugging off Fire Cages apparently 100% of the time (they are taking the damage, though), but getting immobilized by Ring of Fire. 

 

My questions:  Why does this happen when the NPC bosses are so far below my character's rank?  Additionally, why does the Fire Cage ability miss when Ring of Fire works, yet both show the same percentage for immobilization.

[Glacier Peak]

29 minutes ago, Techwright said:

I confess that I'm not one to wring every last bit of data from a character, but sometimes I'll admit that I could use a better understanding of some particular function.  Let me set the stage for two questions:

 

I'm currently playing a level 50vet2 dominator with fire/ice powers.  Although I'll focus on him, I believe I've seen the situation involving my question with other characters, though I couldn't cite specifics at the moment.   I use both Fire Cages and Ring of Fire constantly.  Each is currently fitted with one Single Origin level 50 immobilization enhancement.  As I climbed the security levels ladder, I'd noted that bosses always shrugged off the immobilization effect of Fire Cages, but were snagged by Ring of Fire.  No big deal to me, as I know I'm taking on NPCs equal or greater in rank. 

 

Now, though, I've taken the dom to Perez Park to Kill Skuls for my badges.   I've noticed, despite them being 40+ levels beneath me, that Bone Daddies and other bosses are still shrugging off Fire Cages apparently 100% of the time (they are taking the damage, though), but getting immobilized by Ring of Fire. 

 

My questions:  Why does this happen when the NPC bosses are so far below my character's rank?  Additionally, why does the Fire Cage ability miss when Ring of Fire works, yet both show the same percentage for immobilization.

Ring of Fire is a magnitude 4 Immobilize. Fire cage is a magnitude 3 Immobilize.

 

https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Magnitude

[Frozen Burn]

50 minutes ago, Techwright said:

I confess that I'm not one to wring every last bit of data from a character, but sometimes I'll admit that I could use a better understanding of some particular function.  Let me set the stage for two questions:

 

I'm currently playing a level 50vet2 dominator with fire/ice powers.  Although I'll focus on him, I believe I've seen the situation involving my question with other characters, though I couldn't cite specifics at the moment.   I use both Fire Cages and Ring of Fire constantly.  Each is currently fitted with one Single Origin level 50 immobilization enhancement.  As I climbed the security levels ladder, I'd noted that bosses always shrugged off the immobilization effect of Fire Cages, but were snagged by Ring of Fire.  No big deal to me, as I know I'm taking on NPCs equal or greater in rank. 

 

Now, though, I've taken the dom to Perez Park to Kill Skuls for my badges.   I've noticed, despite them being 40+ levels beneath me, that Bone Daddies and other bosses are still shrugging off Fire Cages apparently 100% of the time (they are taking the damage, though), but getting immobilized by Ring of Fire. 

 

My questions:  Why does this happen when the NPC bosses are so far below my character's rank?  Additionally, why does the Fire Cage ability miss when Ring of Fire works, yet both show the same percentage for immobilization.

 

Just like holds, Immobilizations generally require a stack of 2 to contain a boss.  Your Fire Cages (mag 3) is not necessarily "missing" (unless you see the "Miss" text floating) and it is applying the effect - it just needs a 2nd application of immobilization to overcome a boss' inherent mag 3 protection and even for bosses 40 levels below you.  So either having Domination up (which adds mag to your controls) or stacking an application of Ring of Fire will over come the boss' protection.  

 

However, Ring of Fire being Mag 4 on a Dom/Troller, means you can immob a boss in 1 application.  

[Luminara]

1 hour ago, Techwright said:

Why does this happen when the NPC bosses are so far below my character's rank?

 

Mag doesn't increase or decrease with rank differences or slotting.  Duration does.

[Techwright]

5 hours ago, Frozen Burn said:

 

Just like holds, Immobilizations generally require a stack of 2 to contain a boss.  Your Fire Cages (mag 3) is not necessarily "missing" (unless you see the "Miss" text floating) and it is applying the effect - it just needs a 2nd application of immobilization to overcome a boss' inherent mag 3 protection and even for bosses 40 levels below you.  So either having Domination up (which adds mag to your controls) or stacking an application of Ring of Fire will over come the boss' protection. 

4 hours ago, Luminara said:

 

Mag doesn't increase or decrease with rank differences or slotting.  Duration does.

 

So that was what I misunderstood.   Mag is not affected by level but is affected by rank.  Got it.  Many thanks!

Edited September 15 by Techwright

[Frozen Burn]

1 hour ago, Techwright said:

So that was what I misunderstood.   Mag is not affected by level but is affected by rank.  Got it.  Many thanks!

 

Yep.  Critters have mez Protection and Resistance.  Protection is the Mag you have to overcome (despite lvl) just to affect them, and then the Resistance comes into play to determine how long the effect will last. 

 

So, attacking critters 40 lvls lower will mez them basically forever (if no damage component that kills them) and that's once you overcome their mag protection.  Critters higher level than you, once you overcome their mag protection, will have greater resistance and your mezzes will not last as long - which is why typically, you would slot your mezzes with holds, immobs, fears, sleeps, etc to make the duration last longer overcome their resistance.  🙂  

[Uun]

On 9/15/2024 at 10:32 AM, Techwright said:

Each is currently fitted with one Single Origin level 50 immobilization enhancement. 

Immobilize enhancements increase the duration of the immobilize effect, not its magnitude. Base duration (without Domination) for both Ring of Fire and Fire Cages is 22 seconds, so added duration isn't that useful. If you're going to 1-slot the power, you're better off slotting accuracy. This especially applies to Fire Cages, which has a 10% accuracy penalty (Ring of Fire has a 20% accuracy bonus).

[Techwright]

4 hours ago, Uun said:

Immobilize enhancements increase the duration of the immobilize effect, not its magnitude. Base duration (without Domination) for both Ring of Fire and Fire Cages is 22 seconds, so added duration isn't that useful. If you're going to 1-slot the power, you're better off slotting accuracy. This especially applies to Fire Cages, which has a 10% accuracy penalty (Ring of Fire has a 20% accuracy bonus).

Thank you for that!  Let me reword that to make certain I understand:  No immobilization enhancement really necessary, as it does nothing more than increase duration.  Instead focus on accuracy, which...increases the magnitude level's effectiveness?  Will that snag the boss (and higher) once the accuracy penalty is dealt with?

 

Sorry if I'm confusing it.  Normally, I'm reasonably bright, but every once in a while... 🤯🙄  Perhaps it's a lingering effect from when I was 13 and decided it would be cool to test a 9-volt battery against my dental braces.  ⚡😱

[Hedgefund]

The accuracy is to insure it hits.  That particular enhancement slotting does nothing to increase magnitude or duration.

 

Slotting for effect, in this case immobilize, increases duration.  There's no increasing magnitude short of stacking the mez.  Someone will come along and "well akshually" the couple of ways to increase mag but for this purpose, I'm ignoring them (it involves incarnate powers and/or certain IOs)

 

If you really want to see this in action you should buy the power analyzer from the START vendor and watch the attributes for mezzes as you use them.

[Uun]

17 hours ago, Techwright said:

Instead focus on accuracy, which...increases the magnitude level's effectiveness?  Will that snag the boss (and higher) once the accuracy penalty is dealt with?

The immobilize can't do anything if it misses, so accuracy increases your chances of hitting the target. You still need sufficient magnitude for the immobilize to effect the target: mag 2 for minions, mag 3 for lieutenants, mag 4 for bosses and AVs, mag 7 for elite bosses. As stated above, the ST immobilize is mag 4 and the AoE immobilize is mag 3 (without Domination).

[Black Talon]

Techwright, your inquiry and considerations here are things that I can much appreciate.  While, yes, we all want a comic book superheroes/villains game where there's going to be issues like a character's personal determination and willpower that will make a difference in a fight, a game is different from a story and requires some kind of numeric balancing mechanism.  I remember, Back In The Day, that my SS/EB Defender - at level 5-6 - would use Gale on a boss during a Team scrap.  The first application accomplished nothing except visual effects, and I'd have teammates asking, "What the hell are you doing?", and with the second app - right after recharge, while the first app's duration was still in effect - the boss would get tossed up against the wall and now be vulnerable to gang pummelling.  I'd explain the mag effects to the team after the mission was done, and while it's not in the, "I just tried harder because my friends were in danger," category, I think the mag effects are about as close as a numerical system can come to simulating that.

 

Of course, with Homecoming, the mag effects have changed somewhat - bosses now get hurled by a single application of Gale - but the basic concept still remains in effect.