Build Guidelines

[TheMultiVitamin]

9 hours ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

 

If you don't try every power, how are you gonna know how it performs?  This is the way.  And then when a power no longer meets your needs, you've learned enough to choose to remove it.  

 

True, I completely forgot that Respecs exist! Thanks a ton for the info, that's most likely what I'm going to start doing. Either taking ones that make sense for the character thematically (like the Psi-Blade character) or if there's a lot of the powers or the whole sets that would make sense, take all of them and then respec to ones that I've had the most use out of them and like for the character the most.

 

8 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

 

There are those that create characters based on exploiting the power sets and game mechanics, there are those that create characters and pick powers based on character conception, and then there are other ways of going about it (to cover everything else).

 

As a character conception player, I do not feel it to be "taxing or inefficient" to play a character based on my conception of them. I try to retain that concept even if it means turning off the XP/Level-locking them because I consider them to be at the height of their powers at that point.

 

If you want to mini-max then I would suggest Mids ... as I'm sure other people have.

 

If you want to explore the game and everything it has to offer, then you can't dismiss powers simply because they aren't "the best" based on number crunching.

There are alot of powers that are fun to use that people will throw out the window for the sake of dps alone.

 

City of Heroes was based on teaming and team synergy. Over the years it has become more solo friendly. 

 

Is playing City of Heroes about enjoying and exploring the superhero genre or is it about "steamrolling" content/"Hulk smash!"?

 

The choice is yours. You pick your own goals and what is fun for you.

I play character conception myself as well, my only issue was that I was getting so many powers from my primary and secondary that I barely used a decent amount from either, so why take them? If the rest of the powers fit the character concept and theme and I'm barely using much of the others, how do I decide what to take without crippling myself? Thankfully the answers here have helped a lot!

I also at some point do want to make a few optimal characters, mainly out of interest to see how they perform, so mostly curiosity (though if it fits a character concept then even better).

 

8 hours ago, Erratic1 said:

 

Almost certain some would not see those things as incompatible. And certainly others would not see a need for the clear derision packed in the question.

 

Yea, I can definitely see some wanting one, the other or both (myself included).

 

8 hours ago, biostem said:

I think that this also highlights how the "one size fits all" approach to CoH doesn't always mesh well with everyone's expectations;  Sometimes you want to be a Hulk or Juggernaut, other times you *just* want to be a Daredevil or something more "mundane"...

True, I generally want to make characters that going up to Incarnate level would make sense for them concept wise and narratively, but I do have a few that would make more sense to pause them at level 20 or 30 as their height of power conceptually or narratively.

 

6 hours ago, Without_Pause said:

There is the Beta server as well. It is little more than doing a respec on a build to see what one plays like. City of Data gives me a starting point for DPA and animation times overall. Another aspect to not taking all of the attacks is you have more slotting for the ones you do take. 

Yea I want to avoid the Beta server and the Insta-50 PVP thing as well, much rather do it organically as I level, understand the powerset via playing it over those levels and as the character themselves grow.

[UltraAlt]

17 minutes ago, TheMultiVitamin said:

I play character conception myself as well, my only issue was that I was getting so many powers from my primary and secondary that I barely used a decent amount from either, so why take them? If the rest of the powers fit the character concept and theme and I'm barely using much of the others, how do I decide what to take without crippling myself? Thankfully the answers here have helped a lot!

I also at some point do want to make a few optimal characters, mainly out of interest to see how they perform, so mostly curiosity (though if it fits a character concept then even better).

 

How many active trays are you using?

Do you have a separate tray for toggles.

 

From my own character creation, there are often powers in a primary or secondary set that don't match my character conception. This does a good bit of narrowing down for me.

I don't power level more than using x2XP when on the team I play with 2 nights a week (sometimes not even then). The rest of the time I just get 8 hours of the x2XP and, when that runs out, I don't get any more.

That being said, I'm picking powers as I go, and I'm not getting all of the primary and/or secondary powers as I go. I usually ending up getting a travel power before 20-30 and probably end up having a couple of pool powers by 30 as well. (I pretty much always try to get leadership maneuvers and tactics along the line as I tend to team. Plus the are toggles, so I just turn them on and leave them on). I pick powers on what the character seems to need at that point based on how well they are doing in combat focusing on what would fit the character conception. 

 

To be archetype specific:

Blasters can use their Tier 1 and Tier 2 primary powers when mezed, so I would always suggest to get those on a blaster.

For a controller, I generally decide if I want the character to be single or multi-target and focus mainly on the powers that fall into one of those to categories.

I often do not get self rez powers.

I will generally always take powers that are augmented by other powers in a set or the archetypes inherent power.

 

Sometimes what makes a difference in the power I pick is the additional FX it has - like slow, disorient/stun, knockback, knockdown, etc.

 

Generally, powers have a time and a place to use them. You might have a good rotation of powers, but new type of enemies or a certain situation means changing your tactics and powers to defeat them.

 

I can't really give any better explanation than that as I do it on the fly.

I've been back for several years now and I know that I have /respec'd less than 5 times. Honestly, I can only remember twice. And, I only have one build per character.

 

If you gave me a certain archetype, power sets, and concept, I could probably make better suggestions of how to narrow down your power picks from the primary or secondary set.

[TheMultiVitamin]

1 hour ago, UltraAlt said:

 

How many active trays are you using?

Do you have a separate tray for toggles.

 

From my own character creation, there are often powers in a primary or secondary set that don't match my character conception. This does a good bit of narrowing down for me.

I don't power level more than using x2XP when on the team I play with 2 nights a week (sometimes not even then). The rest of the time I just get 8 hours of the x2XP and, when that runs out, I don't get any more.

That being said, I'm picking powers as I go, and I'm not getting all of the primary and/or secondary powers as I go. I usually ending up getting a travel power before 20-30 and probably end up having a couple of pool powers by 30 as well. (I pretty much always try to get leadership maneuvers and tactics along the line as I tend to team. Plus the are toggles, so I just turn them on and leave them on). I pick powers on what the character seems to need at that point based on how well they are doing in combat focusing on what would fit the character conception. 

 

To be archetype specific:

Blasters can use their Tier 1 and Tier 2 primary powers when mezed, so I would always suggest to get those on a blaster.

For a controller, I generally decide if I want the character to be single or multi-target and focus mainly on the powers that fall into one of those to categories.

I often do not get self rez powers.

I will generally always take powers that are augmented by other powers in a set or the archetypes inherent power.

 

Sometimes what makes a difference in the power I pick is the additional FX it has - like slow, disorient/stun, knockback, knockdown, etc.

 

Generally, powers have a time and a place to use them. You might have a good rotation of powers, but new type of enemies or a certain situation means changing your tactics and powers to defeat them.

 

I can't really give any better explanation than that as I do it on the fly.

I've been back for several years now and I know that I have /respec'd less than 5 times. Honestly, I can only remember twice. And, I only have one build per character.

 

If you gave me a certain archetype, power sets, and concept, I could probably make better suggestions of how to narrow down your power picks from the primary or secondary set.

 

Tray 1 is my normal attacks + combo builders
Tray 2 are my Finishers + Temporary Buffs
Tray 3 are my Travel/Temp powers
Tray 4 are my Toggles
Tray 5 are my Accolade/prestige powers

 

This is a StJ/SR Brute. My general guideline is that I take all the powers from my Primary and Secondary, though I take my Travel power as soon as I can because I hate being slow and it also helps me flesh out the character thematically and conception wise.

However with the information I've gotten from this thread I'm now going to be taking more powers that fit the character concept properly rather then just taking every single power from my Primary and Secondary (unless of course all of them do fit the theme/concept). But I'm the same in that I pick them as I go and build from there. I mostly play Solo personally, but I plan to start teaming again at some point, especially to do TF's, Trials, etc.

[Psyonico]

Just to jump on specifics a tiny bit...

SR you want to take every power with the exception being Elude.  You don't necessarily need to skip it, but you probably won't use it.

 

@Doomguide2005 has an SR scrapper that I've played with a bunch. I think he said he's used Elude 2 or 3 times since he made the toon back in 2019.

[TheMultiVitamin]

20 minutes ago, Psyonico said:

Just to jump on specifics a tiny bit...

SR you want to take every power with the exception being Elude.  You don't necessarily need to skip it, but you probably won't use it.

 

@Doomguide2005 has an SR scrapper that I've played with a bunch. I think he said he's used Elude 2 or 3 times since he made the toon back in 2019.

I believe I know how I'm going to build and utilize this character now, and making other characters with stuff in mind has become much easier with all the stuff shared with me. But thanks for the tip on Elude! I wouldn't have known otherwise.

[Nemu]

Build for theme and what's fun for you, recognize limitations of the game engine and be somewhat flexible in your goals, then find synergies to support those goals.

 

I frown on always looking at conventional forum metrics to evaluate powers. Sentiments like "power that do no manage are not useful (i.e handclap) or this thing has a long cast time so it sucks (i.e Thunderstrike) and every build needs to have numina/miracles in health" have become so ingrained in peoples minds that they don't take the time to evaluate synergy those powers bring to the build. The game is forgiving enough to allow builds to go in other directions.

 

Not everything needs to be evaluated around clear speed/pylon times/dpa/nerdy fucking math shit, in a vacuum, without any consideration for how powers interact with other powers in your toolkit.

 

Having said that one of the biggest problems I see with player builds on the newbie "I don't know what I'm doing" spectrum is lack of focus, most often as a result of not clearly defined build goals. Once you define your goals, you can identify synergies THEN use nerdy fucking math shit to help you optimize your build to reach those goals.

[TheMultiVitamin]

3 minutes ago, Nemu said:

Build for theme and what's fun for you, recognize limitations of the game engine and be somewhat flexible in your goals, then find synergies to support those goals.

 

I frown on always looking at conventional forum metrics to evaluate powers. Sentiments like "power that do no manage are not useful (i.e handclap) or this thing has a long cast time so it sucks (i.e Thunderstrike) and every build needs to have numina/miracles in health" have become so ingrained in peoples minds that they don't take the time to evaluate synergy those powers bring to the build. The game is forgiving enough to allow builds to go in other directions.

 

Not everything needs to be evaluated around clear speed/pylon times/dpa/nerdy fucking math shit, in a vacuum, without any consideration for how powers interact with other powers in your toolkit.

 

Having said that one of the biggest problems I see with player builds on the newbie "I don't know what I'm doing" spectrum is lack of focus, most often as a result of not clearly defined build goals. Once you define your goals, you can identify synergies THEN use nerdy fucking math shit to help you optimize your build to reach those goals.

Understandable and yea I'm primarily still going to be building for theme, it was just that my old way of understanding MMO's meant "take everything in your primary and secondary, that's how you're supposed to do it" and then seeing that that is not actually true at all. I forget that while City of Heroes is still an MMO, it does things in a more unique way allowing much more freedom and creativity then other MMO's do. Hence why the Holy Trinity doesn't really exist for this MMO like it does as much in others (though you can make characters still based on the Holy Trinity if you wanted to, it's just not required to be effective in what you do for this game, instead you just need to be able to play your Powerset Primary + Secondary + Archetype combo well.)

[Without_Pause]

3 hours ago, TheMultiVitamin said:

Yea I want to avoid the Beta server and the Insta-50 PVP thing as well, much rather do it organically as I level, understand the powerset via playing it over those levels and as the character themselves grow.

Understandable from someone who has soloed to 50 a number of builds without using 2x XP boosters.

 

Elude is there as a mule if need be. On a Scrapper, I use Shadow Meld as my 'Oh crap' button, but to be honest it ends up being a mule as well. 

 

[Sanguinesun]

4 hours ago, TheMultiVitamin said:

True, I completely forgot that Respecs exist! Thanks a ton for the info, that's most likely what I'm going to start doing. Either taking ones that make sense for the character thematically (like the Psi-Blade character) or if there's a lot of the powers or the whole sets that would make sense, take all of them and then respec to ones that I've had the most use out of them and like for the character the most.

 

I play character conception myself as well, my only issue was that I was getting so many powers from my primary and secondary that I barely used a decent amount from either, so why take them? If the rest of the powers fit the character concept and theme and I'm barely using much of the others, how do I decide what to take without crippling myself? Thankfully the answers here have helped a lot!

I also at some point do want to make a few optimal characters, mainly out of interest to see how they perform, so mostly curiosity (though if it fits a character concept then even better).

 

 

Yea, I can definitely see some wanting one, the other or both (myself included).

 

True, I generally want to make characters that going up to Incarnate level would make sense for them concept wise and narratively, but I do have a few that would make more sense to pause them at level 20 or 30 as their height of power conceptually or narratively.

 

Yea I want to avoid the Beta server and the Insta-50 PVP thing as well, much rather do it organically as I level, understand the powerset via playing it over those levels and as the character themselves grow.

 

90% of this game, as it is with HC, is truly casual so of course letting concept or themes be your guide is perfectly normal.   Challenges start to arise when someone wants to put that frame of thinking into specific goal oriented needs from which conflicts arise that can lead to either a necessity to compromise or completely scrap in favor of building around specific play goals instead. 

 

However, also creativity can play a large part in things.  One doesnt have to make a rad based powers toon and feel boxed in with it being "radiation" for example, especially when color customization can make things look different for the most part (green to black for example).  

 

Turning off characters at specific exp levels in the manner you described from a narrative standpoint sounds like roleplaying considerations so again, that's going to be something that then narrows to varying degrees the characters but since one can play content once 50 at the lower levels and your powers are restricted accordingly, there's less reasons to just simply stop a toon in its leveling in its tracks at  those levels.   Remember, levels really are not part of the narrative really, they're the practicality aspects of the meta of the game that were implemented as a progression (and originally to keep you subbed).

 

As for avoiding beta server, its function is to allow players to test either their ideas/build plans, content etc as they wish or any upcoming beta testing needs with changes/content of the game.  It is then simply a tool one chooses to use and toons made there are not allowed to be transfered to the other servers in the game.

 

Insta pvp toons aren't the same as the beta server ones as they are restricted to pvp primarily and other imposed restrictions.  They were/are simply there as an attempt to get people to pvp, as it is for the most part a very very niche thing on HC.   Its not set up to be a tool to test things with the same capabilities as the beta server nor should it be.     

 

Again you're mainly a theme focused player and that is ok.  Many people play as they wish and that's one of the strengths of the game. 

 

 

[TheMultiVitamin]

20 minutes ago, Sanguinesun said:

 

90% of this game, as it is with HC, is truly casual so of course letting concept or themes be your guide is perfectly normal.   Challenges start to arise when someone wants to put that frame of thinking into specific goal oriented needs from which conflicts arise that can lead to either a necessity to compromise or completely scrap in favor of building around specific play goals instead. 

 

However, also creativity can play a large part in things.  One doesnt have to make a rad based powers toon and feel boxed in with it being "radiation" for example, especially when color customization can make things look different for the most part (green to black for example).  

 

Turning off characters at specific exp levels in the manner you described from a narrative standpoint sounds like roleplaying considerations so again, that's going to be something that then narrows to varying degrees the characters but since one can play content once 50 at the lower levels and your powers are restricted accordingly, there's less reasons to just simply stop a toon in its leveling in its tracks at  those levels.   Remember, levels really are not part of the narrative really, they're the practicality aspects of the meta of the game that were implemented as a progression (and originally to keep you subbed).

 

As for avoiding beta server, its function is to allow players to test either their ideas/build plans, content etc as they wish or any upcoming beta testing needs with changes/content of the game.  It is then simply a tool one chooses to use and toons made there are not allowed to be transfered to the other servers in the game.

 

Insta pvp toons aren't the same as the beta server ones as they are restricted to pvp primarily and other imposed restrictions.  They were/are simply there as an attempt to get people to pvp, as it is for the most part a very very niche thing on HC.   Its not set up to be a tool to test things with the same capabilities as the beta server nor should it be.     

 

Again you're mainly a theme focused player and that is ok.  Many people play as they wish and that's one of the strengths of the game. 

 

 

All very good points. I even just realized today that if I wanted I could make a Nictus if I just make a Warshade and switch alignment to Villain or just take a different powerset/archetype like Gravity Control and change the colors to purple and black. I mess around with power customization a lot so I completely get where you're coming from!

[Ringo]

Honestly it sounds like people would benefit from some youtube tutorials on how Mids is both used in general and specifically the tools Mids offers to theorycraft a build

[TheMultiVitamin]

13 minutes ago, Ringo said:

Honestly it sounds like people would benefit from some youtube tutorials on how Mids is both used in general and specifically the tools Mids offers to theorycraft a build

 

Honestly, absolutely. If you make one or find one feel free to share, it'd be incredibly helpful.

[Without_Pause]

If one does a search on YouTube for Mids Reborn, there are three videos within the past 1-8 months. There is a 7 video series covering it as well. While the series is two years old, it still should be good enough to get going. I honestly use a sliver of what the tool does. 

[Koopak]

So here's my contribution to your goblin hoard, if you'll have it.

Abandon +recovery, embrace drugs. https://cod.uberguy.net./html/power.html?power=temporary_powers.temporary_powers.alt_lp_recovery_serum

 

Really this is something that took me several years to realize. Most builders tend to worry a lot about endurance, and I did too for a long time. Initially it was just vibes, then i got into the nitty gritty and tried to make sure i had more end/s coming in then my ST rotation and my toggles would eat, then i just shot for lasting two minutes with the understanding that Ageless Radial (not the one gives recovery, just a full bar) would solve that, as well as embracing accolades.

Eventually however I realized that hitting that two minute mark is pretty easy most of the time, and when its not there's this stupid cheap gem at the START vender. Now its a temporary power sure, but the only content that locks you out of temporary powers is specifically tuned for teams, specifically large and/or coordinated teams. This means that you almost certainly have an endurance battery somewhere on the team, take a look through the support sets they are absolutely lousy with +recovery and +end. Not to mention the kings of support (in said content) currently, Kin and Cold, both bring big end to the team.

Thus I've landed strongly on the ideology that endurance is a non factor even before factoring in any other tools. This opened up my options and planning a lot.

[Psyonico]

13 minutes ago, Koopak said:

Abandon +recovery, embrace drugs. https://cod.uberguy.net./html/power.html?power=temporary_powers.temporary_powers.alt_lp_recovery_serum

 

Going to have to disagree here.

 

First of all, Recovery Serum is not permanent, so when it's down, you need to be able to manage your endurance.

 

Secondly, Ageless is only available once you hit 50 and only exemplaring down to 45.  Additionally, it prevents you from using another Destiny that could potentially be better suited for a character.

[Koopak]

10 hours ago, Psyonico said:

Going to have to disagree here.

 

First of all, Recovery Serum is not permanent, so when it's down, you need to be able to manage your endurance.

 

Secondly, Ageless is only available once you hit 50 and only exemplaring down to 45.  Additionally, it prevents you from using another Destiny that could potentially be better suited for a character.

 

1. 150% (70% comes from Hasten) global recharge is all that's needed to make it permanent. You also don't need it to be permanent, your endurance doesn't evaporated instantly the second your income doesn't match your use. 4 minutes is a long time, you'll be fine. Even with 0 recharge, it averages out to +0.66 end/s which is about +40% recovery.

 

2. Ageless Radial is the best suited option for a lot of builds when soloing because debuffs are usually the issue for a build that can normally solo without relying on it's destiny. For group play you just don't use ageless because the group has your end covered. For the niche case of a solo build reliant of barrier or rebirth to survive solo, then sure, but recovery Serum is still available unless you are doing something like hard mode TFs solo. 

 

The level argument is fair to a point, but you don't need to get build fancy before 50. Sure it can help but ive leveled every AT and a lot of power sets using just SOs and basic IOs and yeah then I slot end redux because I just have the spare slots since I only need 3 of the likely 4-6 each attack will get, to cover accuracy and damage and only 2 for each buff or defensive

 

Edited 18 hours ago by Koopak

[Wimbochismo]

Making Mids builds is taking game theory-crafting and using Mids to translate it into workable action in-game. The best analogy I can make for learning to make builds is that it's a science of a particular discipline like lets say, Chemistry. For some people, learning Chemistry is easy. They read the content and it gets injected right into their brains and boom a Chemist is born. A Biologist on the other hand only needs to learn enough Chemistry to work at their own discipline but they still have a good working knowledge. And then some people just aren't going to be able to learn Chemistry no matter how hard they try.

 

Even then, a lot of learning Chemistry is just rote memorization. So once you "get it" then it's just practicing making builds over and over. Then jumping in-game and going through multiple iterations and refinement until you perfect a build. I think this is why you see a discrepancy of people saying building is either "easy" or "impossible" and some people just want to dip their toe into building long enough to keep playing the game. Other "Scientists" will be able to look at builds like it's a no-brainer while people who aren't Scientists will think you're speaking a different language.

 

The other issue is that this game is a "build your own game." You build your own costume, power sets, attack chains, defenses, but even more than that - you build your own content, difficulty level etc. This means you have people playing on SO's only, all the way to people with full purple sets and Incarnates. Also people playing from solo -1 to Teaming +4 content. That means that their build goals and breakpoints could be totally different from the next person's. 

 

All of these factors together combine to make creating a "guide for building" very difficult. The goalposts keep moving. It's like looking at a long and complicated equation and at the end the only solution you need is a functional character. There's a million ways to solve that equation.

 

I will say that a general "meta build" is a good base to shoot for. Something like 45 of a defense, 75+ s/l/? resists, perma Hasten, good endurance management, accuracy to hit +3's, most of the unique enhancements, and powers slotted appropriately. Are you going to be able to hit those metrics on every powerset combo? No. But these are some of the goals you want to try to hit for general gameplay. It cover's most of your bases that you'll encounter in-game if you tackle a large cross section of content. Do you have to try to hit those goals? Again, no.

 

It's just that if you deviate from the above baseline, you should try to do so logically. If I wanted to I could make a Controller build that specifically reaches the Controller hp cap. But, should I? What do I gain from that? If I do, does my accuracy vs +3 go down? Does my cc potential go down? I often see people post builds that try to do one thing, but then totally overlook another aspect that they're affecting.

 

This is also why it's so important to define build parameters when asking for advice. Other than some advice like whoa wait, that powerset combo is way better on a different AT - I try to work within what a person's vision is. I also encourage people to post builds on the forums and ask for help. It can be incredibly difficult to post a build that you've worked on for weeks and then take criticism's on it and have us change it within 10 minutes. But that's really how you learn to make builds. Practice practice practice! And ask for advice when you're stumped!