Is Proton Sweep Worth It?

[Rylas]

My in-game experience with Proton Sweep has felt lackluster. Even with improvements to Tanker AoE, I don't feel like it lands a lot when mobs are clustered around me. Compared to something like Shadow Maul, it seems to underperform. I was hoping to have a bit more AoE with my build, but maybe I should just find a more functional power instead.

 

How do most people feel about Proton Sweep?

 

Additionally, what performs better? Capped resistance to most types with moderate defense to all, or soft-cap S/L slightly less resistance? Pics for refernce:

Edited November 16 by Rylas

[Warshades]

I am not a big fan of Proton Sweep. If you don't plan to exemplar down very often, I would suggest Cross Punch more as you can also slot a FF +recharge proc.

 

With res vs def, I would say that if you have any DDR (defense down resistance), you should be better off with the soft cap s/l and slightly less resists. Based on the resist numbers you have, this looks more like a pure resist set (electric armor maybe?) in which case I would probably focus on resists alone.

 

You could make an argument that having the soft cap s/l def will help with the initial alpha strike as you'd get hit less often at the very start, but in fights against anything that does heavy -def spams (like in ITF) that def will get destroyed within seconds. Anything that doesn't do -def, the ~18% you have in the first build should help carry you and you can always pop a purple insp as needed.

[Warshades]

I would also add that you're well over the resist cap in the first build, so worth taking a second look and seeing if you can improve anywhere as you don't need so much resistance. Mid's doesn't factor in SMoT +resist proc so you really only need to reach ~77% resist before a double stacked SMoT gets you to 90%, or 83% if you want to get there with 1 stack. If you plan on running Barrier destiny, you'd be getting another permanent 5% as well.

[Erratic1]

1 hour ago, Warshades said:

Based on the resist numbers you have, this looks more like a pure resist set (electric armor maybe?) in which case I would probably focus on resists alone.

 

Definitely Electrical Armor judging by the Negative, Toxic, and Psionic numbers.

 

While Electrical Armor does not have any DDR, I would probably still go for the second build because not everything you fight has Defense Debuff (or at least that is what I am doing with my recently 50 Energy Melee/Electrical Brute and I have no complaints so far, though instead of capping S/L Defense I capped Melee Defense).

 

Edited November 16 by Erratic1

[ZemX]

56 minutes ago, Warshades said:

Mid's doesn't factor in SMoT +resist proc so you really only need to reach ~77% resist before a double stacked SMoT gets you to 90%,

 

Mid's does include SMoT, same way it does any proc.  If the yellow proc dot is selected on the power, it includes the effects.  Though it only includes ONE stack, so keep that in mind.

 

11 hours ago, Rylas said:

How do most people feel about Proton Sweep?

 

I take it early and then drop it later.  It is good damage if you can hit at least two enemies but not much else.

 

11 hours ago, Rylas said:

Additionally, what performs better? Capped resistance to most types with moderate defense to all, or soft-cap S/L slightly less resistance?

 

In general gameplay? The latter.  Think about it this way... that defense is gone entirely against defense debuffing enemies because you have no DDR.  If you can survive them, you can survive the ones that DON'T have defense debuffing.  But that doesn't necessarily mean building more resistance.  Maybe more recharge or slow debuff resistance?  Whatever it is, I like to build things up that I'll always have available to me.  Getting my defense zeroed after I spent slots building it up just doesn't feel good.

[Erratic1]

7 minutes ago, ZemX said:

In general gameplay? The latter.  Think about it this way... that defense is gone entirely against defense debuffing enemies because you have no DDR.  If you can survive them, you can survive the ones that DON'T have defense debuffing.  But that doesn't necessarily mean building more resistance.  Maybe more recharge or slow debuff resistance?  Whatever it is, I like to build things up that I'll always have available to me.  Getting my defense zeroed after I spent slots building it up just doesn't feel good.

 

This is confusing. You say soft-cap S/L with slightly resistance is better but end by suggesting it doesn't feel good to be DDR debuffed, which is a counterpoint to the latter being better.

 

 

[Sovera]

I've tried taking it and using it but it was so bad I preferred to take Contaminated Strike and ST the mobs until my actual AoE opened up.

[Rylas]

6 hours ago, Warshades said:

I am not a big fan of Proton Sweep. If you don't plan to exemplar down very often, I would suggest Cross Punch more as you can also slot a FF +recharge proc.

 

With res vs def, I would say that if you have any DDR (defense down resistance), you should be better off with the soft cap s/l and slightly less resists. Based on the resist numbers you have, this looks more like a pure resist set (electric armor maybe?) in which case I would probably focus on resists alone.

 

I would also add that you're well over the resist cap in the first build, so worth taking a second look and seeing if you can improve anywhere as you don't need so much resistance.

 

Sounds like the overall consensus that Proton Sweep is just "meh". I'll consider Cross Punch since I'll already have the Fighting pool. And yes, this is Electric Armor. I should have mentioned that, my bad.

 

The only reason I'm that far over the resist caps is that I was trying to plug up Neg/Psi/Tox as best I could and there's a lot of overlap I wasn't able to avoid (and a 6th wasted bonus at one point) to get there. But these were first passes for 2 different approaches, so I'll revisit that to see if I can't tweak those better.

 

5 hours ago, Erratic1 said:

 

Definitely Electrical Armor judging by the Negative, Toxic, and Psionic numbers.

 

While Electrical Armor does not have any DDR, I would probably still go for the second build because not everything you fight has Defense Debuff (or at least that is what I am doing with my recently 50 Energy Melee/Electrical Brute and I have no complaints so far, though instead of capping S/L Defense I capped Melee Defense).

 

 

The ol' Type vs Positional debate. 🙂 I base it on AT. Blasters? Go ranged and stay out of range. Most powers have a positional attribute, so in that instance, you're pretty safe going for Positional. Melee ATs? I go typed, because 1) range still hits you and 2) a majority of attacks are tied to a smash or lethal. Shields and SR being a separate issue.

 

5 hours ago, ZemX said:

In general gameplay? The latter.  Think about it this way... that defense is gone entirely against defense debuffing enemies because you have no DDR.  If you can survive them, you can survive the ones that DON'T have defense debuffing.  But that doesn't necessarily mean building more resistance.  Maybe more recharge or slow debuff resistance?  Whatever it is, I like to build things up that I'll always have available to me.  Getting my defense zeroed after I spent slots building it up just doesn't feel good.

Based of this, and everyone else comments on DDR and end game, I think I'll be going for both builds. I enjoy tanking for lowbie teams and TFs, where DDR isn't quite as prevalent. I can leave the capped res build for higher levels and end game.

Thank you all for the input and advice!

Edited November 16 by Rylas

[Erratic1]

8 minutes ago, Rylas said:

The ol' Type vs Positional debate. 🙂 I base it on AT. Blasters? Go ranged and stay out of range. Most powers have a positional attribute, so in that instance, you're pretty safe going for Positional. Melee ATs? I go typed, because 1) range still hits you and 2) a majority of attacks are tied to a smash or lethal. Shields and SR being a separate issue.

 

I think your information may be a bit out of date about the majority of attacks having smash/lethal components. That got changed.

 

As for positional vs typed, I wanted to minimize things in melee hitting me regardless of type. Yeah, there is ranged S/L damage, but I am not generally worried about that as it is not hard to get things to come to you and I am at capped S/L resistance (E resistance too, which made the screenfuls of Mu I fought recently with the character on a Scirocco arc laughably easy). 

 

What I would like to pull off someday is something like capped resistances and soft-capped Range. Then I'd be set.

 

 

[Rylas]

2 hours ago, Erratic1 said:

 

I think your information may be a bit out of date about the majority of attacks having smash/lethal components. That got changed.

 

I've been away for a couple of years, so I'm sure you're right 🙂. Duly noted

[Sanguinesun]

On 11/16/2024 at 11:11 AM, Rylas said:

My in-game experience with Proton Sweep has felt lackluster. Even with improvements to Tanker AoE, I don't feel like it lands a lot when mobs are clustered around me. Compared to something like Shadow Maul, it seems to underperform. I was hoping to have a bit more AoE with my build, but maybe I should just find a more functional power instead.

 

How do most people feel about Proton Sweep?

 

Additionally, what performs better? Capped resistance to most types with moderate defense to all, or soft-cap S/L slightly less resistance? Pics for refernce:

 

 

You're asking a catch all/cure all concerning "which is better".  Answers you'll get from folks will vary because your specific game play goals dictate effectivity.   

 

If you're a gen pop casual play post 50 tank, then any damn thing is enough.   If you have specific goals with hard core 4 star content for example, then your choices of powers, builds etc with tanks becomes much more min/max in considerations with some sets becoming not encouraged etc.   

 

You've asked though in general so, "anything is fine" applies.

 

As for proton sweep, same thing applies.  If you're gen pop, anything's fine.  If you've some specific goal in mind for your play, then it may not be as effective a choice.  

 

7 hours ago, Rylas said:

 

The ol' Type vs Positional debate. 🙂 I base it on AT. Blasters? Go ranged and stay out of range. Most powers have a positional attribute, so in that instance, you're pretty safe going for Positional. Melee ATs? I go typed, because 1) range still hits you and 2) a majority of attacks are tied to a smash or lethal. Shields and SR being a separate issue.

 

 

Its not really a debate per se.  Since you've noted you've been away for years, the mechanics of defense were changed a couple of years back to where positional defense is now with higher effectivity over damage type defense.  Essentially the effectivities were reversed by HC.

 

Someone also already addressed the point concerning s/l from what you'd previously believed as well.

[Warshades]

16 hours ago, ZemX said:

Mid's does include SMoT, same way it does any proc.  If the yellow proc dot is selected on the power, it includes the effects.  Though it only includes ONE stack, so keep that in mind.

 

Perhaps you're using an older version, or else there is a newer version that's still in test mode that has it fixed or else my update checker isn't working properly? I do know how the yellow proc dot works and on my version of mid's (i28 page 1, 2024.8.865) the SMoT is not included in stat totals, not even 1 stack of it.

 

Edited November 17 by Warshades

[Sovera]

17 hours ago, Erratic1 said:

 

I think your information may be a bit out of date about the majority of attacks having smash/lethal components. That got changed.

 

As for positional vs typed, I wanted to minimize things in melee hitting me regardless of type. Yeah, there is ranged S/L damage, but I am not generally worried about that as it is not hard to get things to come to you and I am at capped S/L resistance (E resistance too, which made the screenfuls of Mu I fought recently with the character on a Scirocco arc laughably easy). 

 

What I would like to pull off someday is something like capped resistances and soft-capped Range. Then I'd be set.

 

 

That majority of the attacks still have a S/L component. What changed 'recently' was that some of the attacks of some of the mobs of some factions had the S/L component removed from E/N attacks. This was done to curb the S/L defense meta, but it was not a sweeping change. The patch note when it happened went over which mobs had this changed in each faction.

 

As for capped resistances and softcapped defense let me present you my Fire/Martial Arts 😄 Affectionately called the Turtle because of that.

[Erratic1]

45 minutes ago, Sovera said:

That majority of the attacks still have a S/L component. What changed 'recently' was that some of the attacks of some of the mobs of some factions had the S/L component removed from E/N attacks. This was done to curb the S/L defense meta, but it was not a sweeping change. The patch note when it happened went over which mobs had this changed in each faction.

 

I will need to go back and check that then. Capped Melee has been working fine for the character but then you figure a lot of what comes that way would be S/L anyway. Not sure what exactly would be delivering F/C/E/N/T/P via mele (well, maybe Behemoth demons could do F with their swords).

[Uun]

Proton Sweep feels worse than it is because its damage is DoT over 3s after a 0.5s delay. It actually has higher DPA than many of the T3/T4 cones. It does have the benefit of being mostly toxic damage. It's definitely on the narrow end of the melee cone spectrum (75 deg / 7 ft), but Cross Punch is even narrower (50 deg / 7 ft). I think it could be quite good if it were made just a bit wider and/or longer.

[Erratic1]

1 hour ago, Sovera said:

The patch note when it happened went over which mobs had this changed in each faction.

 

Think I found it:

 

Quote

DEFENSE CHANGE
Arachnoid claw attacks now prioritizes toxic defense
Arachnos tarantula mistress claw & Claw shred now prioritizes toxic defense
Arachnos toxic tarantula all damaging attacks now prioritize toxic defense
Knives of Artemis poison dart prioritizes toxic defense

Arachnos fire taranutal burning claws now prioritize fire defense
Carnival Seneschal torch attack now prioritizes fire defense
IDF heavy troopers rockets prioritize fire defense
Nemesis LT lance Rifles & Jaeger explosions now prioritize fire
Rikti Magus fireball prioritizes fire
Potentially a lot more depending on how broad the grenade change is

CoT Ice Casters now prioritize cold with two attacks
Council/5th column riflemen cryonic shots now prioritize cold defense
Crey Cryo Tank attacks (Except Freeze Ray) now target cold defense
Talons of Vengeance Spirtiualist & Prophetess & Oracle & Sibyl (ice) now prioritize cold
TOV Keres Deaths' Embrace now prioritizes Cold (prev. also negative)

CoT Succubus blackclaw now prioritizes negative energy defense.
Council Vampyri Shadow Punch now prioritizes negative defense.
Council Galaxy Gravimetric Snare & Gravity Well now prioritize negative defense
TOV Keres Enervating bolt now prioritizes Negative (prev. also cold)

GRENADE CHANGE
Longbow potentially very effected by grenade/rocket rework, nearly the entire faction has a grenade attack (They're already basically just lethal/fire outside of bosses though)
Council/5th column grenade rework, possible rocket launcher rework
Crey Crisis Unit grenade launcher rework, possible rocket launcher rework
Malta tacop/engineer/op officer effected by grenade rework.
Titans affected IF grenade rework affects rockets (Right now they do straight lethal)
Nemesis Snipers maybe effected if storm rifle is treated as 'a grenade'
PPD Enforcer affected by grenade change

 

 

Highlighted the ones where Melee positional would serve you better than Smashing/Lethal typed. Rather obviously things like Council machineguns and Cimmeroran spears (which I hope are S/L) would be better served with S/L defense.

[Maelwys]

59 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

 

I will need to go back and check that then. Capped Melee has been working fine for the character but then you figure a lot of what comes that way would be S/L anyway. Not sure what exactly would be delivering F/C/E/N/T/P via mele (well, maybe Behemoth demons could do F with their swords).

It was i27 Page 4 - see here - and there were a LOT of things affected... if memory serves, it was roughly 10% of all the NPC attacks in the game that got hit by the balance pass.
However as far as I know they didn't actually list all the ENEMY attacks in any of the patch notes; only the PLAYER attacks.
 

Note the bit "Previously, attacks checked for defense typings of any damage types involved in the attack. For example, most Ice Blast attacks are  Cold/Smashing and when checked against a player's defenses, it would look at both Cold and Smashing defenses and use whichever was highest." so if an enemy attack has any smashing or lethal component at all then chances are that smashing or lethal typed defense used to work against it...
 

[Erratic1]

19 minutes ago, Maelwys said:

Note the bit "Previously, attacks checked for defense typings of any damage types involved in the attack. For example, most Ice Blast attacks are  Cold/Smashing and when checked against a player's defenses, it would look at both Cold and Smashing defenses and use whichever was highest." so if an enemy attack has any smashing or lethal component at all then chances are that smashing or lethal typed defense used to work against it...

 

Used to, so no longer does now that they are only checked against by Cold as damage type. So going S/L defense does not help any longer and going Positional does not hurt. 👍

[Sanguinesun]

6 hours ago, Uun said:

Proton Sweep feels worse than it is because its damage is DoT over 3s after a 0.5s delay. It actually has higher DPA than many of the T3/T4 cones. It does have the benefit of being mostly toxic damage. It's definitely on the narrow end of the melee cone spectrum (75 deg / 7 ft), but Cross Punch is even narrower (50 deg / 7 ft). I think it could be quite good if it were made just a bit wider and/or longer.

 

Also keep in mind it utilizes contamination and -def which speaks to why it was likely was designed with that limitation in mind for balance sake to the power set. 

 

 

Edited November 17 by Sanguinesun

[ZemX]

On 11/16/2024 at 8:02 AM, Erratic1 said:

This is confusing. You say soft-cap S/L with slightly resistance is better but end by suggesting it doesn't feel good to be DDR debuffed, which is a counterpoint to the latter being better.

 

Derp.  I meant to say "the former".  Or rather "NOT the latter" because there's more than just resistance you can add to a resistance-based toon.  But adding defense is, in my opinion, a waste of slots.   You are either accepting that you'll be dropped by defense debuffing enemies or, if you can survive them, you are basically proving you didn't need the added defense in the first place.

 

There are several caveats: One is farming of course.  If you can avoid defense debuffing enemies, then of course defense is valuable even when not backed by DDR.  Two is teams.  They change everything.  Having base defense means you need less defense buffing to take you well over the soft-cap and into territory where even without DDR you are unlikely to be dropped below the soft cap.  You just can't get there by yourself is all.

 

On 11/16/2024 at 1:26 PM, Rylas said:

Based of this, and everyone else comments on DDR and end game, I think I'll be going for both builds. I enjoy tanking for lowbie teams and TFs, where DDR isn't quite as prevalent. I can leave the capped res build for higher levels and end game.

 

See above.  I made a mistake in my response to your post.  I meant to say that building anything BUT defense is more valuable on a toon with no DDR.  I haven't played Elec Armor, but I play a ton of Rad Armor and there I focus mainly on Res, Recharge, and slow resist.  Have zero difficulties in low level TFs.    And defense debuffing is quite prevalent at all levels. Basically anyone with blades or bullets debuffs defense.  CoT Earth mages in Posi 1 even.   Tankers are most susceptible to defense debuffing too because, if you're doing it right, you are the focus of most attacks.  You are going to be hit often enough to drop defense if you have no DDR or are not well over the soft-cap.   But if you're going to give it a shot, be sure to have at least one defense, like Smashing Defense, in your combat monitor so you can see when it goes red.  

[ZemX]

On 11/17/2024 at 12:41 AM, Warshades said:

Perhaps you're using an older version, or else there is a newer version that's still in test mode that has it fixed or else my update checker isn't working properly? I do know how the yellow proc dot works and on my version of mid's (i28 page 1, 2024.8.865) the SMoT is not included in stat totals, not even 1 stack of it.

 

I think I'm up to date but as far as I can recall, it's always worked this way.   When I posted that last reply, I had just tried it again to verify.  I was looking at the View Totals popup window while clicking/unclicking the yellow dot.  It was clearly moving res up and down as I did it by the value of the proc.   

 

See if there are any other settings you have in Effects/Maths settings maybe that might affect it.  You could also check other buff procs like FF:Rech.  I know that one adds 100% to my global recharge in Mid's when the yellow dot is checked.  Always have to make sure it's not checked to see my real global recharge for the build.  If I think about it later, I'll have another look at Mid's myself. 

[Maelwys]

Mids hasn't factored the SMoT Proc in for quite a few updates now.



You can edit Mid's database yourself for stuff like this (and I often will) but chances are good that it'll bork it again next update.


[Edit] - Found the relevant chatter on their discord about it:



Note that the latest (non-dev) app version made available was v3.7.5 back in July. So we're currently stuck with the borked version.
 

Edited November 18 by Maelwys

[Erratic1]

1 hour ago, ZemX said:

Derp.  I meant to say "the former".  Or rather "NOT the latter" because there's more than just resistance you can add to a resistance-based toon.  But adding defense is, in my opinion, a waste of slots.   You are either accepting that you'll be dropped by defense debuffing enemies or, if you can survive them, you are basically proving you didn't need the added defense in the first place.

 

For a given amount of health, regen, and resistance there is an amount of incoming damage which will eventually bring health to zero with higher rates of damage doing so more quickly. Having increased defense shifts that threshold for the amount of damage necessary to see defeat upward. So against opponents which do not debuff defense you are better off.

 

Let's posit defense is absolute worthless versus defense debuffing opponents. You're no worse off against them than you'd have otherwise been short of whatever other survival investments you could have made. If your powersets do not bring you high regen, IOs aren't getting you there. Nor are you getting substantial hp gains. Defense, of some sort, is omnipresent...you just have to configure it for the most part.

 

The place your argument goes wrong things the leap from if you did not need defense to survive debuffing enemies to that suggesting you did not need it against non-debuffing ones. If Cimmerorans debuff me with their spears, there is still 90% resistance to their Lethal attacks. A non-debuffing foe targeting a lower resistance is less of a threat when it has to overcome defense.

[Rylas]

I've weighed the pros and cons of Proton Sweep versus Cross Punch and decided to go with PS for a couple of reasons. First, the toxic damage and debuff features of the power along with a wider arc. And second, it made slotting for my goals a little easier.

For <30 tanking, I've gone Melee defense (you convinced me, @Erratic1, to give it a go). That and Hasten levels of recharge should help for most content at those levels. Also planning on attuned enhancements to make the most of receiving bonuses and enhancement values at the levels I'll be at.

Elec-Rad Lowbie.mbd

 

For everything else, I've maxed out resistance as best I can. One application of SMotT gets me to the cap for all but Toxic, but I was able to get 50% resistance to that from bonuses. High recharge and lots of AoE damage as well.

 

Elec-Rad Endgame.mbd

 

 

[Erratic1]

23 minutes ago, Rylas said:

For <30 tanking, I've gone Melee defense (you convinced me, @Erratic1, to give it a go).

 

Oh...I wasn't trying to do that. There are definitely trade-offs. But it has been working (or at least not not working) for me. Please let me know how it works out for you.