A simple but effective way to buff to all powersets that have a self revive.

[Mystoc]

Since rising from defeat is part of the powersets identity I don't believe being defeated should be treated the same generic way. 

 

I believe this change is simple but would drastically make powersets with self revives feel more seamless to use.

• Make defeats suppress toggles instead of outright turning them off. the main annoyance of powerset revives are their clunkiness to use and how long it takes to get back into combat after using them.
• I feel this is fair because the character who has this power to revive knows they are capable of rising from defeat to fight on and does not view being defeated the same way. They are fully expecting get back into fight so are prepared and ready to fight right away so their powers would already be turned on to reflect this mindset.

 

I'm hoping it would work like this, but if this overcomplicates things too much ignore this part and just implement this suggestion whatever way works best.

• You only get this toggle suppression if your revive is a power from your primary or secondary powers.
• You only get this toggle suppression if when you are defeated your revive power is not on cooldown from a past use.
• You only get this toggle suppression if you use your actual revive power to resurrect revives from other sources won't count.
• You only suppress toggles that don't target enemies/allies, toggles like Darkest Night wouldn't count.
• The untouchable buff you get after using a revive power is lost after using any power at all like normal.
• All toggles that debuff or damage enemies stay suppressed until you lose your untouchable buff.

 

Spoiler

EDIT: it turns out you can turn on toggles and keep the 15 seconds of untouchable the game gives you I thought this was not the case, this was one of the main reasons I thought Toggle Suppression would be super helpful. I still think it would be a nice QoL but its not must have any more I will keep this post up but less invested in this suggestion

 

I may delete the post based on feedback, feel free to comment though how you feel either way.

 

Edited December 6 by Mystoc

[Rudra]

That is why melee AT self-rez powers include a period of untouchability, so you have time to turn those toggles back on.

[Mystoc]

8 minutes ago, Rudra said:

That is why melee AT self-rez powers include a period of untouchability, so you have time to turn those toggles back on.

yes, but that is clunky some powersets have 4-8 toggles some of which force you to be rooted in place if they are AoE based, when you factor in power pools the number of toggles can get very high, the feeling of power set that uses revive should envision rising from defeat to fight on right away not running away to a corner to toggle on your powers.

 

I think powerset revives should be more viewed like big self-heals that can used even when defeated so you should just be able to fight right away after using a revive, the having toggle back on your powers make it feel less like a power you have just another run of the mill self rez anyone can use.

Edited December 5 by Mystoc

[biostem]

16 minutes ago, Mystoc said:

Make defeats suppress toggles instead of outright turning them off

Here's the thing - while your character is in a defeated state, they cannot be the target of any buffs, whether those be in the form of toggles or single click powers - only powers that specifically target such defeated entities.  You'd have to fundamentally charge all such toggle powers to now work on characters in that state...

Edited December 5 by biostem

[Glacier Peak]

Sounds more like wanting to just face roll content instead of using gameplay mechanics to succeed. If the player is defeated and wants to self rez, they're making the conscious decision to accept that they could very well be defeated again immediately if they decide to do the exact same thing again. The game's only punishment, if that is even a fair thing to call it, is to defeat a player when they make poor decisions.

 

Use the tools that are already in the toolbox and a player will be fine. 

[Mystoc]

7 minutes ago, biostem said:

Here's the thing - while your character is in a defeated state, they cannot be the target of any buffs, whether those be in the form of toggles or single click powers - only powers that specifically target such defeated entities.  You'd have to fundamentally charge all such toggle powers to now work on characters in that state...

 any powerset the resurrects Like or Howling Twilight can target defeated teammates though? you can even be teleported by others as well in the defeated state to a more safe location.

 

there are even resurrects the buff teammates after rezing them like Elixir of Life from the poison powerset. it seems to me that they already multiple powers that allow you to target defeated teammates with them, but if the devs say it isn't possible then that's that the suggestion is dead and won't revive ☠️

[biostem]

1 minute ago, Mystoc said:

any powerset the resurrects Like or Howling Twilight can target defeated teammates though? you can even be teleported by others as well in the defeated state to a more safe location.

 

there are even resurrects the buff teammates after rezing them like Elixir of Life from the poison powerset. it seems to me that they already multiple powers that allow you to target defeated teammates with them, but if the devs say it isn't possible then that's that the suggestion is dead and won't revive ☠️

Right, because all of those were coded to be able to target a defeated target, just like how an awaken can work on a downed player character, but not a living one.  Also, IIRC, those rez powers that apply a buff, actually have 2 components - the rez effect, then after a short delay, the buff.  You would have to fundamentally change ALL toggles to be able to work on defeated characters, but only in a suppressed state.  It's not that it's a bad idea, it's just that it's probably not feasible...

[Mystoc]

5 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said:

Sounds more like wanting to just face roll content instead of using gameplay mechanics to succeed. If the player is defeated and wants to self rez, they're making the conscious decision to accept that they could very well be defeated again immediately if they decide to do the exact same thing again. The game's only punishment, if that is even a fair thing to call it, is to defeat a player when they make poor decisions.

 

Use the tools that are already in the toolbox and a player will be fine. 

that mindset is what makes everyone skip powerset resurrects, they view being defeated as a hugely negative thing and not them utilizing what their powerset is designed to do. you still get exp debt when you are defeated there is a punishment.

 

in age where almost any powerset can cap their defense to soft cap with IOs and be basically unkillable you really think people would suddenly just start to choosing to be defeated again again if toggles were allowed stayed on when you rezed?

 

a change like this is not going to make everyone with a revive power suddenly want to be defeated like its reward, its just going to make reviving from defeat less clunky.

[Rudra]

12 minutes ago, Mystoc said:

that mindset is what makes everyone skip powerset resurrects,

Please don't speak in absolutes. Every character I have that has a self-rez in their power set also has the self-rez. And I'm not the only person that does so.

[Glacier Peak]

10 minutes ago, Mystoc said:

that mindset is what makes everyone skip powerset resurrects, they view being defeated as a hugely negative thing and not them utilizing what their powerset is designed to do. you still get exp debt when you are defeated there is a punishment.

 

in age where almost any powerset can cap their defense to soft cap with IOs and be basically unkillable you really think people would suddenly just start to choosing to be defeated again again if toggles were allowed stayed on when you rezed?

 

a change like this is not going to make everyone with a revive power suddenly want to be defeated like its reward, its just going to make reviving from defeat less clunky.

Getting back in to a fight shouldn't be instantaneous. That would mean defeat has no meaning. Just like debt has no meaning with Patrol XP in the game. 

[Psyonico]

1 hour ago, Mystoc said:

To be clear this change would only apply if used your powerset's revive to resurrect. If you were revived any other way all your toggles would be turned off NOT on.

See, this really complicates things... Not only would all toggles in power sets with a revive need to be reworked, but also all power pool toggles as well... THEN you'd have to have weird if statements that would depend on how you were resurrected... Not sure that part is possible.

 

Also, if toggles only suppressed, that would mean if you were rezzed by anything else, your toggles would go on cooldown *after* you resurrected.  Since not all toggles have a 1 second or less cooldown, this would end up being a nerf to any rez that is not a self rez.

[Mystoc]

1 minute ago, Glacier Peak said:

Getting back in to a fight shouldn't be instantaneous. That would mean defeat has no meaning. Just like debt has no meaning with Patrol XP in the game. 

rez powers have a cooldown like any other power rezes cooldown unenhanced is 300 seconds that's 5 mins, with lots of global recharge you could get the cooldown down to 90 seconds with 280% global haste recharge that is my peacebringer's rez cooldown one slotted with a +5 recharge IO.

 

I think you are picturing some low level 30 just endlessly running at mobs fighting again and again fighting non stop and ignoring defense not caring about defense or defeat at all. taking a rez does not suddenly mean you can just die again and again even if toggles stayed on.

 

Im really not sure why you are seeing a small QoL change so negatively people will still care about getting defeated if they have a rez power buffs they use themselves or that are given by teammates that aren't toggles would still get taken off them it's not like they stay exactly the same after reviving.

[Mystoc]

9 minutes ago, Psyonico said:

See, this really complicates things... Not only would all toggles in power sets with a revive need to be reworked, but also all power pool toggles as well... THEN you'd have to have weird if statements that would depend on how you were resurrected... Not sure that part is possible.

 

if it isn't then it isn't I can't know if its possible or not either way I'm not a dev.

 

9 minutes ago, Psyonico said:

Also, if toggles only suppressed, that would mean if you were rezzed by anything else, your toggles would go on cooldown *after* you resurrected.  Since not all toggles have a 1 second or less cooldown, this would end up being a nerf to any rez that is not a self rez.

 

I would think if you owned the power to self revive and had it ready you would use your own power to revive not accept a rez from another source.

 

and if you got defeated again with revive power on cooldown I would say your toggle powers shouldn't suppress the would be fair trade off since you are getting defeated so much. This would also avoid the issue of causing toggles to have unintended cooldowns after reviving.

 

I will edit that line to reflect these thoughts better great feedback, thanks!

 

[tidge]

35 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Please don't speak in absolutes. Every character I have that has a self-rez in their power set also has the self-rez. And I'm not the only person that does so.

 

Just to echo the words of Senator Rudra, I also tend to take the self-rez powers. There are times when I want to live on the edge of the knife, and other times when I want to live on the tip of the knife.

[Mystoc]

41 minutes ago, tidge said:

 

Just to echo the words of Senator Rudra, I also tend to take the self-rez powers. There are times when I want to live on the edge of the knife, and other times when I want to live on the tip of the knife.

your right I should have said most people not everyone, I like using resurrect powers as well I don't die often but I often have extra power slots to spare so I take them just in case.

Edited December 5 by Mystoc

[Glacier Peak]

2 hours ago, Mystoc said:

rez powers have a cooldown like any other power rezes cooldown unenhanced is 300 seconds that's 5 mins, with lots of global recharge you could get the cooldown down to 90 seconds with 280% global haste recharge that is my peacebringer's rez cooldown one slotted with a +5 recharge IO.

It's not about rez powers recharging. It's your suggestion, if implemented, making it so toggles are automatically back on without any activation time occurring. That's instantly getting a player back in to the fight. There's no risk to the player at that point. Keep face rolling the keyboard until dead then rez and keep face rolling until dead and rez recharges. 

[megaericzero]

2 hours ago, Psyonico said:

Not only would all toggles in power sets with a revive need to be reworked, but also all power pool toggles as well...

Don't forget that Blaters, Controllers/Dominators, Corruptors/Defenders, and Masterminds can all access Rise of the Phoenix through ancillary power pools. So...

[Rudra]

54 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said:

It's not about rez powers recharging. It's your suggestion, if implemented, making it so toggles are automatically back on without any activation time occurring. That's instantly getting a player back in to the fight. There's no risk to the player at that point. Keep face rolling the keyboard until dead then rez and keep face rolling until dead and rez recharges. 

Especially if the Untouchable period is retained. That would be... what... 15 seconds of being able to do anything to enemies without them being able to fight back?

[OEM61]

2 hours ago, megaericzero said:

Don't forget that Blaters, Controllers/Dominators, Corruptors/Defenders, and Masterminds can all access Rise of the Phoenix through ancillary power pools. So...

Yes, and my F3 Blaster loves it.

Not sure why the OP felt that ancillary rezzes should not be part of the deal.  I mean, I have to pick the pool and then pick the power.  It's the same basic investment as a Fiery Aura Tanker or Brute or whatever.

And if pool rezzes don't count, why should pool toggles get a benefit?

All in all it just seems like too big a mess, though.  Too many powers would need to be redesigned, and then some of those powers would need to have two forms to prevent the ancillary versions from working like the primary or secondary versions.

It sounds like a massive project just waiting to not work right.



 

[Ghost]

I don’t know.

I would think that if you were too suddenly revived yourself from death, a few seconds of confusion and discombobulation would be normal.

Immediately jumping back into the fight just seems wrong.

 

As for debt being the “punishment”.

Thats so inconsequential these days, that I’m willing to bet half the player fade forget it even exists.

Edited December 5 by Ghost

[Jacke]

@Mystoc, if this was done (difficult as others have pointed out), why not include Pool revives like Unrelenting?

 

12 hours ago, Mystoc said:

yes, but that is clunky some powersets have 4-8 toggles some of which force you to be rooted in place if they are AoE based, when you factor in power pools the number of toggles can get very high, the feeling of power set that uses revive should envision rising from defeat to fight on right away not running away to a corner to toggle on your powers.

 

The solution is a Toggle-Turn-On-Macro.  I've standardized on Tray 3 Slot 9 containing a Turn-On-Macro for Stealth Powers, Tray 3 Slot 10 containing one for Fighting Powers (Protection, etc.).

 

I also changed my keybinds extensively allowing me to press S to trigger the Stealth Macro, F the Fighting Powers (WERD are the movement keys).  Here's the Macros for any Ninjitsu (Scrapper or Sentinel) Toon.  As with other $$ chained powexectoggleon macros, the Powers are turned on from right to left in the macro.  I've got a config file with all sorts of these commands that I can paste into the Game Client.

 

/macroslot 29 +F "powexectoggleon Tactics$$powexectoggleon Assault$$powexectoggleon Maneuvers$$powexectoggleon Tough$$powexectoggleon Weave$$powexectoggleon Shinobi-Iri$$powexectoggleon Danger Sense$$powexectoggleon Ninja Reflexes"

/macroslot 28 +S "powexectoggleon Shinobi-Iri$$powexectoggleon Prestige Power Surge"

 

 

[Mystoc]

Glad to see there lots of discussion on this topic, some points others are bringing up points I do touch on in original post in the section towards the end, but I will repeat them for clarity here.

 

• you would not keep untouchable if you are fighting enemies for 15 seconds that would be silly.
• I excluded power pool and epic revive powers because they are designed to be weaker in general then main powers. A prime example is aid other it's so weak at what it does as a heal because its designed to be that way purposely the devs want primary/secondary powers to be stronger at healing and not be overshadowed by a power pool.
• maybe its too hard to code this suggestion maybe it isn't, I see this mentioned alot but none of us can know what the real answer is till we hear back from the devs.
• but I'm picturing this toggle suppression working like peacebringer shapeshifting but with defeats instead of being a squid/dwarf does that make sense?

 

• Some people are very against the idea of a rez that keeps toggles on because they view it as unlimited lives to keep fighting forever with no consequences for defeat but rezes have cooldowns and I even mention if you defeated when your revive still on cooldown you don't keep this feature its only when the revive when is ready this would work.
• remember when you are defeated all buffs like hasten and +hp powers like dull pain that give your more hp are lost these are not toggles! they are lost on defeat its not like you remain exactly the same after reviving, the same would be true for teammates powers that buff you as well.

 

• I know toggle on macros exist the clunkiness is not having to click each toggle but being forced to run away after you revive the second you click on a toggle you would lose your 15 seconds of untouchable so cant really do this in combat.
• I think powerset revives being only used to run away and reset is what makes them so unappealing everyone gets a START revive, so your character would have to dying more then once an hour to make a powerset rez ever be appealing to pick up. This is why I firmly believe powerset revives need something that makes them stand out compared to normal revives.
• The only other option is to make all powerset revives like rise of phoenix and give them a mini buff you can still use while undefeated which I personally think defeats the whole purpose of it being labeled a revive but it is an option, but that would require much more work than this general suggestion that would work for all revives at once.

Edited December 5 by Mystoc

[Rudra]

57 minutes ago, Mystoc said:

I know toggle on macros exist the clunkiness is not having to click each toggle but being forced to run away after you revive the second you click on a toggle you would lose your 15 seconds of untouchable so cant really do this in combat.

Uhm, no, you don't. The whole point of the Untouchable period is for players to be able to turn their toggles back on. I've rezzed many, many, many times, and unless the enemies get their attacks in before Untouchable can take effect, I just stand there turning on my toggles one at a time while enemies waste their efforts trying to hurt me.

 

59 minutes ago, Mystoc said:

I think powerset revives being only used to run away and reset is what makes them so unappealing everyone gets a START revive, so your character would have to dying more then once an hour to make a powerset rez ever be appealing to pick up. This is why I firmly believe powerset revives need something that makes them stand out compared to normal revives.

Again with the absolutes.... and this after I and @tidge already told you that we take those powers.

[tidge]

Writing only for myself: I find it pretty crazy what some characters can produce in terms of raw damage in a limited period of time if I push them well into the red and don't mind "burning green" (i.e. Health). Having a self-rez available on the order of every 90 seconds (because of Global recharge, and what-not) beyond things like Barrier, Rune of Protection, Inspirations, blah blah blah fishcakes is just one more piece of a puzzle to make playing certain characters more enjoyable.

 

My only regret is that if it is Rise of the Phoenix from an Epic pool, the self-rez comes pretty late for my tastes. Unrelenting can be had much earlier, but its power pool is much less satisfactory and is something of an acquired taste.

[Mystoc]

 

4 hours ago, Rudra said:

Uhm, no, you don't. The whole point of the Untouchable period is for players to be able to turn their toggles back on. I've rezzed many, many, many times, and unless the enemies get their attacks in before Untouchable can take effect, I just stand there turning on my toggles one at a time while enemies waste their efforts trying to hurt me.

 

I Tested this in the abyss you see deflected deflected when I get hit after rezing so I thought that meant you are getting hit but just dodging it with defense from IOs I was wrong they Abyss monster damaged me for the first time exactly at 15 seconds.

 

I use the rez then get damage basically 15 seconds later

Quote

[18:58:49] You Restore Essence yourself from the brink of death. You feel weak and cannot do anything for a while.
[18:59:06] The Swarm hits you with their Sting for 2.94 points of Lethal damage.

 

you are right about I never knew toggles did not take away untouchable, since all rezes work like this already what I'm asking for is a very small buff to the point im not sure if this should still be a topic as a suggestion anymore, I don't think change like this would be too strong but at the same time it wouldn't change that much either compared to what we currently have.

 

I will leave this post up so others can comment if they like idea of toggle suppression when defeated but will no longer be trying to convince others it's a needed feature since it seems we have half of what I desired already I think 15 seconds is enough time to turn on all toggles assuming you have a toggle on macro.