Genuinely confused about the deep science testing of enemies buffed ITF with different builds .. help

[tidge]

AFAIK, once an attack hits, any DoT from that attack will not require further ToHit checks. Toggled Auras are things that get repeated ToHit checks. Some pseudo-pets obviously make subsequent attacks (with ToHit checks) and I think there are a small number of powers that leverage something like a pseudopet to randomly try to do damage. Those things shouldn't be part of the players' streakbreaker(s)... I think every critter that can attack gets to benefit from streakbreaker (henchmen do).

 

Also AFAIK, any non-guaranteed child effects (from a successful attack) don't factor into streakbreaker at all, those chances belong to the power not the player/critter so I don't know why they would.

 

Many of these above are all rolls on the RNG of course... but from players who have shared logs of their own roll results we've seen a remarkably flat distribution... which was how it was designed. It would be worse for all of us if it didn't give flat results! I have no complaints about the RNG, it is more that I think the implementation of streakbreaker is the confounding factor at least for characters with typical 95% ToHit chances on all attacks, because those characters REALLY don't want to miss.

 

I also don't entirely blame the live devs for implementing streakbreaker... it was more-or-less an attempt to shortcut any complaints that the RNG is being unfair w.r.t. combat. I do think that the choices of cutoffs are weird... for example: given a 50-50 chance ToHit, there is a 6.25% chance of four consecutive misses... and a 3.13% chance of a fifth miss (that streakbreaker forces to be a hit). But for 95%, streakbreaker's trigger after 1 miss (on the second roll) is only 0.25% to have been a second consecutive miss (the first one had a chance of 5%). It is hard to convince folks that the flat RNG is being fair when streakbreaker is often jumping in, especially at the ToHit ceiling. I feel like it would have been easier to convince players about RNG by not included streakbreaker but instead include direct logging of all RNG rolls, or at least all ToHit rolls if that is what streakbreaker is supposed to address.

 

I apologize for rambling about this... I feel like I started thinking about this when I had trouble figuring out why AoE attacks against large spawn sizes (up to 8 grays, clustered close enough in the area-of-effect) seemed to be generating more than one MISS message too often for my taste. I grew bored collecting and analyzing data for the 'power' side of the hypothesis I was testing: I used AoE to get many rolls at once, and I didn't have the stamina to keep executing single-target attacks. Ultimately I collected enough data to 'disprove the null hypothesis' I had chosen, but not with enough power to convince anyone (myself included)... so I could be wrong!

 

 

[R jobbus]

21 hours ago, Warboss said:

I see you're using Incinerate. Is it possible that the DoT is causing the issue? The "continuous hit" messing with the proc timer. Maybe replace with Fire Sword on a fast recharge and see what that does?

does DoT on anything mess with procs from moves aside from the one that causes DoT? incinerate is slotted with S gauntleted fist, and the resist proc is in GFS but I didnt know if DoT could affect other moves like that

Edited January 7 by R jobbus

[Warboss]

I don't know all the mechanics for procs. But since timing is involved, I could see how an extended affect could mess with the cut off time (when the effect finishes). Which is why I was suggesting trying a power the didn't have the DoT as the main damage (I think most FM attacks now provide a chance for additional fire damage).

[R jobbus]

@Warboss @Maelwys

 

edit: further testing involving monitoring DDR, active defenses, recharge etc:

 

Frankly at this point, I just think an AV of this level at +4/x8, doing it solo, and having the fight drag on for soooo long, there's just going to be times when you are going to get a little debuffed and take a little damage, without heavily respecing the build/incarnates to only tank this one fight and also in the process probably not do enough damage to it to beat it in a timely manner. For general purpose solo shield builds like this, I kinda doubt it'll get way better than this.

 

conclusion edit: Really after some more testing, I am beginning to think what happened with the original sd/FM build that didn't work was, the recharge hit probably made it to where my defense debuff resistance was at 44% from active defenses not having enough time to stack properly, and that caused it to just take more damage alot easier. But still from this testing, there are times when at 88% DDR you still will just take some damage, but 44% is still too low and likely caused the difference. the SMoT proc really does matter alot though but since one sd/fm build worked and another didnt, Im assuming the ddr was the culprit. 66% seems to be ok, since sd/wm and further testing felt alright for limited time periods at 66% but 44% is too low.  But, if the SMoT proc is in the highest base recharge move and DDR is mostly 88% with shorter periods of 66%, that's about as good as these builds will get for this.

 

I had played with the idea of triple slotting active defenses or using force feedback in sd/MA but I genuinely have had times when at 88% DDR you still just take some hits and some considerable damage as well. So it's not all DDR... I think the SMoT proc timer is just gonna be better on the longer recharge moves like in war mace or battle axe, etc. So to sum it up, too low of recharge and 44% DDR is not enough, you want 88% most of the time and some periods of 66%. But it's not only DDR, the SMoT proc is the other half of it, and that's just gonna vary from secondary to secondary.

 

that's what it's looking like anyway. Thanks for the call out on active defenses

 

 

Edited January 11 by R jobbus

[Warboss]

6 hours ago, R jobbus said:

@Warboss @Maelwys

 

edit: further testing involving monitoring DDR, active defenses, recharge etc:

 

Frankly at this point, I just think an AV of this level at +4/x8, doing it solo, and having the fight drag on for soooo long, there's just going to be times when you are going to get a little debuffed and take a little damage, without heavily respecing the build/incarnates to only tank this one fight and also in the process probably not do enough damage to it to beat it in a timely manner. For general purpose solo shield builds like this, I kinda doubt it'll get way better than this.

 

conclusion edit: Really after some more testing, I am beginning to think what happened with the original sd/FM build that didn't work was, the recharge hit probably made it to where my defense debuff resistance was at 44% from active defenses not having enough time to stack properly, and that caused it to just take more damage alot easier. But still from this testing, there are times when at 88% DDR you still will just take some damage, but 44% is still too low and likely caused the difference. the SMoT proc really does matter alot though but since one sd/fm build worked and another didnt, Im assuming the ddr was the culprit. 66% seems to be ok, since sd/wm and further testing felt alright for limited time periods at 66% but 44% is too low.  But, if the SMoT proc is in the highest base recharge move and DDR is mostly 88% with shorter periods of 66%, that's about as good as these builds will get for this.

 

I had played with the idea of triple slotting active defenses or using force feedback in sd/MA but I genuinely have had times when at 88% DDR you still just take some hits and some considerable damage as well. So it's not all DDR... I think the SMoT proc timer is just gonna be better on the longer recharge moves like in war mace or battle axe, etc. So to sum it up, too low of recharge and 44% DDR is not enough, you want 88% most of the time and some periods of 66%. But it's not only DDR, the SMoT proc is the other half of it, and that's just gonna vary from secondary to secondary.

 

that's what it's looking like anyway. Thanks for the call out on active defenses

 

 

 

I found time to test a bit at 8+2 with my Shield/Icer (not fully incarnated, or tooled up for soloing TFs (yet)), and found the same issue with the stacking (or "off times") with the stacking. Your testing pretty much confirms that for me. Thanks for checking that out. I think one or two of the Incarnate power (Hybrid - Melee, and something else) provides some DDR as well, but I'm not recalling what they are. Having those active during the down times might help. There might be other powers like Unleash Potential that could help as well.

[R jobbus]

47 minutes ago, Warboss said:

 

I found time to test a bit at 8+2 with my Shield/Icer (not fully incarnated, or tooled up for soloing TFs (yet)), and found the same issue with the stacking (or "off times") with the stacking. Your testing pretty much confirms that for me. Thanks for checking that out. I think one or two of the Incarnate power (Hybrid - Melee, and something else) provides some DDR as well, but I'm not recalling what they are. Having those active during the down times might help. There might be other powers like Unleash Potential that could help as well.

 

indeed. 

 

Do you think it'd be worth triple slotting active defenses, I suppose you are barely getting any extra recharge at that point.

 

While I still do not think it's 100% DDR's fault, it's very clear that below 66% DDR is a big issue and that's what was causing the immediate failures for some of these builds (for my purposes, etc, the stacking is important). 

 

The last thing I'm probably going to try at some point is a sd/ma build with 2 force feedback procs somewhere and just give up blistering cold since storm kick gives a decent amount of defense anyway. I don't know if it'll work out but I might as well try it before I consider this pretty much conclusive

[Warboss]

I didn't look, are you already at +5 on the current Recharge for Active Defense? If not, that might we worth trying.

[Gobbledigook]

On 1/5/2025 at 2:34 PM, Sovera said:

 

Do let us know how it's going. I remember doing the +4x8 enemies buffed, no inspirations, no deaths on my Fire/Claws but when I got to the last boss I didn't know/remember that killing the nictus would trigger the stun and once those were down he one shot me instantly 😄

That happened to me the first time i tried on my Rad/SS way back also. Took some advice from others and got it done but i would never punish myself again trying to do it lol.

 

Who started it Werner? 🤪

Edited January 13 by Gobbledigook

[Werner]

1 hour ago, Gobbledigook said:

Who started it Werner? 🤪

I’m almost certain I didn’t start it, and I’m too lazy to reread the tank gods thread to see who did, but the ITF on those settings was my happy place. Did it all the time, sometimes trying to speed run it, more often doing a kill most. Haven’t played CoH for a long time. I probably should try the ITF again for old time’s sake. Maybe without enemies buffed until I remember the basics like my attack chain.

[Sovera]

16 minutes ago, Werner said:

I’m almost certain I didn’t start it, and I’m too lazy to reread the tank gods thread to see who did, but the ITF on those settings was my happy place. Did it all the time, sometimes trying to speed run it, more often doing a kill most. Haven’t played CoH for a long time. I probably should try the ITF again for old time’s sake. Maybe without enemies buffed until I remember the basics like my attack chain.

 

Ermagosh, a wild Werner has (re)appeared!

[Gobbledigook]

33 minutes ago, Werner said:

I’m almost certain I didn’t start it, and I’m too lazy to reread the tank gods thread to see who did, but the ITF on those settings was my happy place. Did it all the time, sometimes trying to speed run it, more often doing a kill most. Haven’t played CoH for a long time. I probably should try the ITF again for old time’s sake. Maybe without enemies buffed until I remember the basics like my attack chain.

I think it may have been Nihilii.

Edited January 13 by Gobbledigook

[Werner]

10 hours ago, Gobbledigook said:

I think it may have been Nihilii.

I checked and it was indeed!

Edited January 14 by Werner

[R jobbus]

20 hours ago, Werner said:

I’m almost certain I didn’t start it, and I’m too lazy to reread the tank gods thread to see who did, but the ITF on those settings was my happy place. Did it all the time, sometimes trying to speed run it, more often doing a kill most. Haven’t played CoH for a long time. I probably should try the ITF again for old time’s sake. Maybe without enemies buffed until I remember the basics like my attack chain.

 

The great Werner! 

 

For the record, all of my testing with shield/anything is because of Werner's great sd/ma build that was the first one I used. 

 

Infact, i probably would be just using that build for everything but I cannot get the aggro limit to work in a way that it used to (either from my lack of skill, or from it changing) so I have resolved to just make sure all of my shield/ builds can do the +4/x8 4 AV fight enemies buffed solo all at the same time, instead of aggro limit tanking them separately. I genuinely wish I could use the aggro limit for the AV fight just as an option but I have not gotten it to work. A better player than me probably could manage it, maybe. My testing has failed to do so.

 

And adding to that, I have had multiple times of flying to the very end of the zone, the temple on the right side, and just pulling rommy (without aggroing anything else, pulling him behind the temple on the right side)... and he'll separate from his nictus, as long as nothing in the entire zone is killed at that point. Which seems abusable..... and I'm afraid to make that a standard for my builds, because what if it changes. Literally everytime I do a 4 AV fight for testing I have to kill the minotaur and his minions on the right side just to stop rommy from separating. I have no idea if this separation is intentional, and for that reason I'm afraid of basing my builds around it.

 

It's just for these reasons I've been reluctant to make builds around using the aggro limit for my runs... I'm a bit afraid to. 

 

but figuring out the 4 AV fight all at the same time at +4/x8 enemies buffed has been fun all the same.

 

The latest update for me was that shield/savage actually works brilliantly if you slot it in the same way as the original sd/wm build, then put the SMoT into hemorrhage. Yea you are spamming low bloodstacks hemorrhage but it actually pairs nicely with alternating between boost and savage leap if you make sure to alternate them in your cycles, so you dont lose much dps and gain quite a bit of resist procs.

 

My next thought for getting sd/ma to work a bit better for this is dropping S avalanche and slotting SMoT into dragon's tail, which is (thankfully) the longest base recharge move of MA for tanker (not eagles claw, apparently). dt is 14, claw is 13. So that opens up gloom to have 5 apocalypse again and axe kick to have 5 hecatomb.. So theoretically, that much recharge for active defenses, SMoT proc in a 14 second move, and storm kicks defenses to make up for losing avalanche *should* be pretty sick.

 

but I've yet to test it, so we'll see.

 

Cheers and thanks to all who contributed to this topic

Edited January 14 by R jobbus

[aethereal]

On 1/7/2025 at 9:46 AM, Warboss said:

I don't know all the mechanics for procs. But since timing is involved, I could see how an extended affect could mess with the cut off time (when the effect finishes). Which is why I was suggesting trying a power the didn't have the DoT as the main damage (I think most FM attacks now provide a chance for additional fire damage).

DoT has no effect on procs.