Stretching!

[Ultimo]

A very common power set is missing from the game.  We've seen many characters in the comics who have this set: Mr. Fantastic.  Plastic Man.  Ms. Marvel.  Elastigirl.  Of course, I'm talking about STRETCHING.

 

The usual explanation for why this set has never been introduced is that the engine doesn't support it, but I've seen effects in the game that are reminiscent of this set.  For example, the Circle of Thorns Hordelings have an attack with a stretched out tongue.  If they can do an attack that looks like a stretched limb, surely the players could too...?  It would mean creating new animations, so I'm not sure that's feasible.  If it is, though... how would we make the powers work?  What would the set DO?

 

Let's consider what we see the characters in the comics using the powers for.  They throw punches at a distance.  They often alter the size of their fists and use them like flails.  They often alter the shape of their bodies to act as walls, or wheels, or other shapes.  They use their limbs or bodies to restrain enemies.  They allow their bodies to warp and distend, allowing them to reduce damage to themselves, even reflecting attacks back at the attackers.

It seems to me the powers in this set would be essentially ranged, though likely somewhat shorter ranged.  So, I see the following as an example:

 

1- Snap Punch - A quick, one arm attack at long range.  Low damage, fast recharge.
2- Hammer Blow - Make a big hammer with the fist at close range.  Moderate damage, AOE.
3- Two Hand Blow - A quick two fist attack at long range.  Moderate damage, moderate recharge.
4- Taunt
5- Iron Grip - Toggle!  Wrap body around a target and hold them.  Target can still attack YOU, but no one else.  Moderate DOT, long recharge.
6- Rubber Banding - Click, adding extra snap to attacks, increases tohit and damage.
7- Rebound - Click, while active, S/L damage reduced by 90%, reflecting such damage at the attacker
8- Looping - Sweep out with an arm and trip foes.  Cone light damage, knockdown, moderate recharge.
9- Pinwheel - Spin body and arms, extreme damage PBAOE.  Long recharge.

 

Now, this is just off the top of my head.  Some animations might need to be created, but some might already be in the game, at least partially.  For example, the Snap Punch animation might be based on the same animation used for Neutrino Bolt from Radiation Blast, where the character thrusts his arm out at the enemy.  The stretching version would replace the radiation blast with an arm and fist that moves out and back the way the Hordelings' tongues do.  I don't know how much the current developers can do with animations.

 

What say you?  Does this have some merit?  What would you change?  Let us discuss how this might be implemented, and perhaps the developers can get some inspiration from the discussion!

 

[merrypessimist]

50 minutes ago, Ultimo said:

A very common power set is missing from the game.  We've seen many characters in the comics who have this set: Mr. Fantastic.  Plastic Man.  Ms. Marvel.  Elastigirl.  Of course, I'm talking about STRETCHING.

 

The usual explanation for why this set has never been introduced is that the engine doesn't support it, but I've seen effects in the game that are reminiscent of this set.  For example, the Circle of Thorns Hordelings have an attack with a stretched out tongue.  If they can do an attack that looks like a stretched limb, surely the players could too...?  It would mean creating new animations, so I'm not sure that's feasible.  If it is, though... how would we make the powers work?  What would the set DO?

 

 

 

That is one attack that calls one specific projectile.  The animators knew exactly where it was coming from, and where it ended, and exactly how far apart those two points were, not to mention the visuals of the origin point. 

 

None of those things are true for a player stretch set. 

[biostem]

Do we have any example of a power stretching objects as variable as a player character's model?  The easiest way of implementing this would be to have the stretching limbs be a sort of "energy construct", kind of like how energy blast actually has some geometry to the projectiles, apart from the particle effects.  The downside is it wouldn't truly be your character's costume that is stretched and distorted to pull off this effect.  I'm starting to sound like a broken record, here, but it isn't the ideas that as bad, it's how to actually implement them that's the issue...

[Rudra]

2 minutes ago, biostem said:

Do we have any example of a power stretching objects as variable as a player character's model?  The easiest way of implementing this would be to have the stretching limbs be a sort of "energy construct", kind of like how energy blast actually has some geometry to the projectiles, apart from the particle effects.  The downside is it wouldn't truly be your character's costume that is stretched and distorted to pull off this effect.  I'm starting to sound like a broken record, here, but it isn't the ideas that as bad, it's how to actually implement them that's the issue...

The advantage the Hordelings have is that like @merrypessimist says, it isn't a model being stretched, it is a projectile attack originating from the Hordeling's mouth. The request is to have stretching powers, but the only way I can think of to have that with what we've seen with the game engine is for a projectile to be animated attacking the target. A tongue emanating from a mouth is one thing. The tongue has a set texture and emanation point striking direct line to the target within projectile range. An arm or leg however would run up against the problems of the original arm/leg is still there part of the character model while the projectile arm/leg is streaking to the target, trying to match a projectile to the character's selected costume options including auras, and the attack would still strictly be linear from character to target with no arcing to hit targets from alternate directions like stretching characters routinely do (and the attack curving to track the target in motion doesn't fit the criteria).

[Ultimo]

I'm not envisioning this effect stretching the model, but applying an overlapping limb.  Imagine it like a beam effect (like X-Ray Beam, for example).  At the front of the beam is a fist, and the beam itself would just be an arm.  Colour customization would let you match it to your character's glove colour.

[Rudra]

23 minutes ago, Ultimo said:

I'm not envisioning this effect stretching the model, but applying an overlapping limb.  Imagine it like a beam effect (like X-Ray Beam, for example).  At the front of the beam is a fist, and the beam itself would just be an arm.  Colour customization would let you match it to your character's glove colour.

You would still have 2 arms/hands or legs/feet for the "stretching" body part, fist auras would still not be duplicated between the character and the projectile, the power palette doesn't use the skin palette for characters not using gloves (or even match the costume palettes as far as I can tell for characters that are using gloves), there are lots of different hand/glove options to account for, and it would still be a direct line of travel to the target.

 

Now if you were asking for a blast set that launched obvious hand shaped energy projectiles at the target(s)? That could be feasible. What you are asking for? I don't think is feasible in this game.

[Ultimo]

4 hours ago, Rudra said:

You would still have 2 arms/hands or legs/feet for the "stretching" body part, fist auras would still not be duplicated between the character and the projectile, the power palette doesn't use the skin palette for characters not using gloves (or even match the costume palettes as far as I can tell for characters that are using gloves), there are lots of different hand/glove options to account for, and it would still be a direct line of travel to the target.

 

Now if you were asking for a blast set that launched obvious hand shaped energy projectiles at the target(s)? That could be feasible. What you are asking for? I don't think is feasible in this game.

Ya, I kind of envision it acting like ranged attacks.  As someone else mentioned above, the animation might have the character thrust his arm forward (as with Neutrino Bolt), but instead of the green beam, it would project a "beam" that looks like the arm and fist.  The beam would reach out then come back.  It would overlap the actual arm enough that it would conceal the hand, and make it LOOK like the model was stretching out.  You'd have to customize the colour to match your gloves, which shouldn't be difficult to do.

[srmalloy]

14 hours ago, Ultimo said:

Let us discuss how this might be implemented, and perhaps the developers can get some inspiration from the discussion!

Let us rather discuss how this would be animated, and who would be doing the work to create the animations, since there are no existing character animations that could be repurposed for the abilities in this powerset. It's easy to talk about what the powers and their effects would be; it's considerably more difficult when none of the character animations exist, with the lack of animation resources available to the HC staff.

[Ultimo]

5 hours ago, srmalloy said:

Let us rather discuss how this would be animated, and who would be doing the work to create the animations, since there are no existing character animations that could be repurposed for the abilities in this powerset. It's easy to talk about what the powers and their effects would be; it's considerably more difficult when none of the character animations exist, with the lack of animation resources available to the HC staff.

Ya, I mentioned that in the original post... I'm not sure if new animations are something the current devs can do.  If not, perhaps there are existing animations that can be repurposed... Most of the powers I suggested are likely able to use existing animations.  For instance,

 

1- Snap Punch - Thrust animation from Neutrino Blast
2- Hammer Blow - Punch animation from Super Strength
3- Two Hand Blow - Energy Blast animation (2 arms) from Energy Blast.
4- Taunt - Normal animation
5- Iron Grip - Energy Blast animation again.
6- Rubber Banding - Buff animation.
7- Rebound - Buff animation.
8- Looping - Cross animation from Fighting.
9- Pinwheel - Whirlwind animation from Super Speed.

 

Again, that's the character animations... the power animations are a different story.

[Rudra]

Still doesn't address how the power set would even interact with our existing costume and aura choices. (Edit: As things stand, there would have to be different power animations for each and every possible hand+aura combination we can have in the game for players to think it actually is stretching, and then more would need to be added every time new glove and/or fist aura options were added.)

Edited 23 hours ago by Rudra

[Ultimo]

45 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Still doesn't address how the power set would even interact with our existing costume and aura choices. (Edit: As things stand, there would have to be different power animations for each and every possible hand+aura combination we can have in the game for players to think it actually is stretching, and then more would need to be added every time new glove and/or fist aura options were added.)

No, but I only see the aura being the issue.  The costume choices would simply depend on the effect (eg. the giant fist) being the same colour as the costume for the gloves.  The effect would overlap the actual arm of the character, so it would look like it was extending.  The aura... well, that's a different story.  If you have a suggestion, that's the point of this thread... to get some discussion going and see how we can tweak the idea until it's something feasible.

[UltraAlt]

On 1/27/2025 at 7:59 PM, Ultimo said:

A very common power set is missing from the game.  We've seen many characters in the comics who have this set: Mr. Fantastic.  Plastic Man.  Ms. Marvel.  Elastigirl.  Of course, I'm talking about STRETCHING.

 

Aside from the animation issues, the first consideration comes down to is the set an attack set, a support set, and/or an armor set that apply to existing archetypes or is stretching a new archetype?

 

We know from how working archetypes are designed, you aren't going to get a mix of ranged and melee powers into a set (sure some PBAoEs as toggles with ranged sets and a single short ranged attack in some melee sets). So, if it isn't a new archetype, it still needs to fit into the way that the other sets for that archetype function.

If it is a new archetype, that's a whole new barrel of monkeys.

 

As for the animations, I think one problem with ranged stretching attack animations may be that the current ranged melee attacks throw things versus distort the character model to "reach" the target. That is to say, a separate "projectile" is formed that follows with its own animation to strike or miss the target.

I can see the situation resolved in two ways. 

Currently, when a weapon or punch is done, it has the same animation regardless of how much the melee distance is. (say the street fighting ranged cone that hits every enemy in the cone out to the distance of the target, other cones, PBAoE, etc). So a ranged stretching attack could always show the same animation regardless of how close the character is to the target - which may cause issues by attacking through walls or what not.

Currently, blasts and thrown melee attacks generate an animation from the starting point of a character to a target. If the stretching character stays in a pose at which the "stretching" is "released" from the character model (a punch in this case), then the traveling animation of the punch could be a layover/blast animation that starts overlapping the character model as fist (enlarged or not), that travels out to the target (like a blast) to strike the target, then the animation runs backwards until the "fist" is "retracted" back to the character model, and, at this point, the character is able to move out of the pose used to simplify the animation of the "stretching" attack.

Either way, it seems it would require more intensive animation requirements than many power sets. (I'm assuming that one would want stretching attacks that go directly to a target as well as arc around and strike from the sides, etc.)

 

I'm not against having a stretching set. I've been in conversations about it before. I agree it is a power that has been used in comics for decades upon decades at this point that has been obviously overlooked in City of Heroes.

 

 

 

[Rudra]

14 minutes ago, UltraAlt said:

 

Aside from the animation issues, the first consideration comes down to is the set an attack set, a support set, and/or an armor set that apply to existing archetypes or is stretching a new archetype?

 

We know from how working archetypes are designed, you aren't going to get a mix of ranged and melee powers into a set (sure some PBAoEs as toggles with ranged sets and a single short ranged attack in some melee sets). So, if it isn't a new archetype, it still needs to fit into the way that the other sets for that archetype function.

If it is a new archetype, that's a whole new barrel of monkeys.

 

As for the animations, I think one problem with ranged stretching attack animations may be that the current ranged melee attacks throw things versus distort the character model to "reach" the target. That is to say, a separate "projectile" is formed that follows with its own animation to strike or miss the target.

I can see the situation resolved in two ways. 

Currently, when a weapon or punch is done, it has the same animation regardless of how much the melee distance is. (say the street fighting ranged cone that hits every enemy in the cone out to the distance of the target, other cones, PBAoE, etc). So a ranged stretching attack could always show the same animation regardless of how close the character is to the target - which may cause issues by attacking through walls or what not.

Currently, blasts and thrown melee attacks generate an animation from the starting point of a character to a target. If the stretching character stays in a pose at which the "stretching" is "released" from the character model (a punch in this case), then the traveling animation of the punch could be a layover/blast animation that starts overlapping the character model as fist (enlarged or not), that travels out to the target (like a blast) to strike the target, then the animation runs backwards until the "fist" is "retracted" back to the character model, and, at this point, the character is able to move out of the pose used to simplify the animation of the "stretching" attack.

Either way, it seems it would require more intensive animation requirements than many power sets. (I'm assuming that one would want stretching attacks that go directly to a target as well as arc around and strike from the sides, etc.)

 

I'm not against having a stretching set. I've been in conversations about it before. I agree it is a power that has been used in comics for decades upon decades at this point that has been obviously overlooked in City of Heroes.

 

 

 

Your post made me realize something. The character is rooted while his/her/their/its attack is going off. Once the ranged attack finishes its animation and the projectile is on its way, the character is again free to move. With the proposed stretching, the character will be rooted in place just like the Hordelings until the projectile finishes returning to the character from however far away the target was.

[UltraAlt]

5 hours ago, Rudra said:

Still doesn't address how the power set would even interact with our existing costume and aura choices. (Edit: As things stand, there would have to be different power animations for each and every possible hand+aura combination we can have in the game for players to think it actually is stretching, and then more would need to be added every time new glove and/or fist aura options were added.)

 

4 hours ago, Ultimo said:

No, but I only see the aura being the issue.  The costume choices would simply depend on the effect (eg. the giant fist) being the same colour as the costume for the gloves.  The effect would overlap the actual arm of the character, so it would look like it was extending.  The aura... well, that's a different story.  If you have a suggestion, that's the point of this thread... to get some discussion going and see how we can tweak the idea until it's something feasible.

 

Let's streamline the basics. If the set happens, then we can worry about further customization.

 

The easiest way to deal with the aura is to only have it showing up on the base character model (it would look like the aura was the origin of the stretching attack) and/or possibly turning it off while the attack animation plays out and turning it back on once the attack animation has completed. 

 

For simplicity sake, the animations for the stretching would all be the same regardless of the costume parts that the character is wearing. The attack animation would need to be large enough to surround costume part of the limb (assuming fist ... at least to start) to obscure it or remove the hand costume part while the "stretching" power animation is running.

 

Color-wise? To start use the character's flesh color or the primary color of the hand costume part used.

[Luminara]

17 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Your post made me realize something. The character is rooted while his/her/their/its attack is going off. Once the ranged attack finishes its animation and the projectile is on its way, the character is again free to move. With the proposed stretching, the character will be rooted in place just like the Hordelings until the projectile finishes returning to the character from however far away the target was.

 

Kinetic Melee with 2x animation times.

 

[Dauntless69]

Cute idea, but given that the current team has no animators, suggesting this is kinda pointless.

[UltraAlt]

1 hour ago, Dauntless69 said:

Cute idea, but given that the current team has no animators, suggesting this is kinda pointless.

 

Still fun talking about it.

[Ultimo]

6 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

 

Still fun talking about it.

Plus, the discussion might come up with something they can use.  One never knows.