Saga Mode

[battlewraith]

What is it?:

 

One of the build slots on a character can be designated as saga mode. This option would be made available after some global unlock, similar to the way Kheldians were a reward for having a lvl 50. Once this condition has been met, a player can start a new character, go to a trainer, and switch to saga mode right away. They don't have to already be leveled or anything like that.

 

Once saga mode is engaged, the character levels and alternates power/slots as usual. However, for the selection of powers the primary, secondary, and pool powers are unlocked with regard to availability. That means a lvl 2 character can be running around with imps. Or a nuke. Or a headsplitter. The restriction is that characters in saga mode are only able to use normal enhancements (ie SOs etc.). So no damage procs, no set bonuses, unique bonuses, etc. Since the PPPs have to unlocked via mission, I would propose that they and the APP would become available at the normal point in progression, but they would afterward be unlocked as well with regard to selection.

 

What's the point:

 

1. To make lower level content palatable again for veteran players that are used to using IO builds that don't gas out constantly. And overcome the irritation of having to take powers that you know you'll skip later, wait for things you like, etc.

 

2. Enable greater build diversity. Allow players to cobble together exotic builds that are precluded by the current system.

 

3, Increased novelty/narrative diversity. Instead of this measured increase in power that is the normal logic of the game, maybe you have a character that can barely control their powers and just nukes every couple of minutes. Maybe a super glass cannon character that only has attacks but can rise from the dead periodically. People would have a lot more options to play with. 

 

 

 

[Excraft]

The name "saga mode" is confusing.  "Shortcut" mode sounds more appropriate. 

 

I don't see this idea as being workable, or needed if I'm being honest.  It reads like yet another suggestion to totally unbalance and break the game.  The core experience is based around progression of power and abilities.  "Saga mode" would totally break that.

 

2 hours ago, battlewraith said:

That means a lvl 2 character can be running around with imps. Or a nuke. Or a headsplitter.

 

This would make low level content even more trivial than it already is by giving players access to powers that the content level is not designed for.  Powers and slots are goals to be worked toward, not unlocked right at the start.  In the case of something like Headsplitter, that doesn't become available until Level 26 (I think), so if someone can pick that at level 2, what do they pick at level 26 if they already have their best powers?

 

2 hours ago, battlewraith said:

1. To make lower level content palatable again for veteran players that are used to using IO builds that don't gas out constantly. And overcome the irritation of having to take powers that you know you'll skip later, wait for things you like, etc.

 

This makes the assumption that people don't like lower level content.  There are a lot of people who do, many of whom never play to level 50.  For those that don't care for running lower level content, I don't see "saga mode" changing their mind.  It's still less time for them to farm up an alt and built it the way they like.

 

2 hours ago, battlewraith said:

2. Enable greater build diversity. Allow players to cobble together exotic builds that are precluded by the current system.

 

There's already a lot of diverse ways to build and slot a character. 

 

2 hours ago, battlewraith said:

3, Increased novelty/narrative diversity. Instead of this measured increase in power that is the normal logic of the game, maybe you have a character that can barely control their powers and just nukes every couple of minutes. Maybe a super glass cannon character that only has attacks but can rise from the dead periodically. People would have a lot more options to play with. 

 

I don't know what you mean by "narrative diversity".  The "measured increase in power" is a core aspect of the game.  You can already build a character that "nukes every couple of minutes" or a "super glass cannon" if you want to.  This is why you see people with characters like petless MMs and such.

Edited yesterday at 07:07 PM by Excraft

[battlewraith]

19 minutes ago, Excraft said:

The name "saga mode" is confusing.  "Shortcut" mode sounds more appropriate. 

 

I don't see this idea as being workable, or needed if I'm being honest.  It reads like yet suggestion to totally unbalance and break the game.  The core experience is based around progression of power and abilities.  "Saga mode" would totally break that.

 

 

This would make low level content even more trivial than it already is by giving players access to powers that the content level is not designed for.  Powers and slots are goals to be worked toward, not unlocked right at the start.  In the case of something like Headsplitter, that doesn't become available until Level 26 (I think), so if someone can pick that at level 2, what do they pick at level 26 if they already have their best powers?

 

 

This makes the assumption that people don't like lower level content.  There are a lot of people who do, many of whom never play to level 50.  For those that don't care for running lower level content, I don't see "saga mode" changing their mind.  It's still less time for them to farm up an alt and built it the way they like.

 

 

There's already a lot of diverse ways to build and slot a character. 

 

 

I don't know what you mean by "narrative diversity".  The "measured increase in power" is a core aspect of the game.  You can already build a character that "nukes every couple of minutes" or a "super glass cannon" if you want to.  This is why you see people with characters like petless MMs and such.

 

It's not shortcut mode. Shortcut mode is sitting on a farm and skipping the low levels. Even a DFB with experience boosters will get you to early 20s very quickly.

 

The core experience is something that people have had for two decades now. The whole point of this suggestion is to add something different than what is already available. 

I don't see how it would unbalance or break anything. As I specified, it would be limited to normal enhancements and you would still be subject to needing to slot things. The significance of getting those powers early diminishes as the character actually gets closer to 50. It would still give some options that would be interesting regarding pool powers, but nothing on the level of significance of IO sets or bonuses.

 

It doesn't make the assumption that "people" don't like lower level content. It's for people like me that don't like lower level content. If you're someone that enjoys what you're doing now, it won't affect you. But I suspect that people that like to tinker and experiment with oddball builds would enjoy this. I think a lot of people would be into this, and if they want to go back to the traditional way all they have to do is visit the trainer. 

 

There are a lot of ways to build and slot a character--once you hit 50 and respec for sets. I don't think there's a whole lot of meaningful variety when you're leveling. And the complaint is often about the slog of getting your character up in levels, not "omg I have so many options to choose from."

[golstat2003]

I doubt this would ever happen based on the philosophy of this dev team.

 

Also This would be amazingly difficult to code base don how this game's code works. Even the New Dawn server (which has various types of free form systems similar to what the OP suggests) that has a similar system could not do this for some ATs, as the coding was too complex. Stalkers for instance do not have a free form power selection system over there due to how baked in Hide is.

 

With the lack of dev resources here (again volunteer dev team) if this ever happened don't expect to see it any time until 2045.

[biostem]

4 hours ago, battlewraith said:

the character levels and alternates power/slots as usual. However, for the selection of powers the primary, secondary, and pool powers are unlocked with regard to availability

I'm confused by this, because you then go on to mention a power that you cannot get until like level 28-30, so would this "Saga Mode" basically ignore level-gating of powers?  In the short term, sure this would be immensely helpful, but in the long term, being unable to use IOs would greatly hamper that character...

[Frozen Burn]

2 hours ago, battlewraith said:

....

I don't see how it would unbalance or break anything.

....

 

As in your OP example, having Fire Imps (or any pet) at lvl 2 is overpowered.  So is a blaster or other ranged AT having their Nuke at lvl 2.  Or melee ATs having their T9 "god-mode" powers at lvl 2.  Low level critters do lower damage and have lower HPs compared to higher lvl groups that dish out higher damage, have higher HPs & defenses and for when these types of powers that come later in your build are unlocked and needed.  It is completely overpowered.

 

And I don't see this as "mixing it up" or "giving us something new."  I see this as a way to just freeform your character and cheat the game.  I believe there are other servers out there that allow you to do this sort of thing right from character creation, if you really wanted to try it.

 

[battlewraith]

55 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

I doubt this would ever happen based on the philosophy of this dev team.

 

I don't post something like this with the expectation that it will happen. For me, it's about expressing the type of thing I would like to see implemented.

If the idea and the rationale behind it is clearly expressed, there might be a point in their development cycle where something like that becomes possible. 

[battlewraith]

51 minutes ago, biostem said:

I'm confused by this, because you then go on to mention a power that you cannot get until like level 28-30, so would this "Saga Mode" basically ignore level-gating of powers?  In the short term, sure this would be immensely helpful, but in the long term, being unable to use IOs would greatly hamper that character...

 

The idea behind it is make that domain of the early game more interesting/fun/novel. If you were going to run the general post 50 content, you would use one of your other build slots which you would enhance normally. 

[battlewraith]

27 minutes ago, Frozen Burn said:

And I don't see this as "mixing it up" or "giving us something new."  I see this as a way to just freeform your character and cheat the game.  I believe there are other servers out there that allow you to do this sort of thing right from character creation, if you really wanted to try it.

 

Oh no. 21 years later I have hatched a diabolical plan to cheat the game. Now I'll have...more characters sitting on the shelf waiting for me to grind expensive IO sets. 

Given the tone of your post, it sounds like your maybe just set in your ways.

[biostem]

8 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

The idea behind it is make that domain of the early game more interesting/fun/novel. If you were going to run the general post 50 content, you would use one of your other build slots which you would enhance normally. 

Noted, but I still would like to know if all powers from your chosen primary, secondary, pools, and APP/PPP would be available from the get-go...

[Excraft]

2 hours ago, battlewraith said:

It's for people like me that don't like lower level content.

 

Then don't play it the "normal"/traditional way.  Run some DFBs, DiBs and AE farms to bypass the content you don't like.  You can also skip all those "useless" power picks and make your build without ever needing to respec.

 

2 hours ago, battlewraith said:

The whole point of this suggestion is to add something different than what is already available. 

 

This is why we get new power sets and new content to add new and different things.

 

2 hours ago, battlewraith said:

There are a lot of ways to build and slot a character--once you hit 50 and respec for sets. I don't think there's a whole lot of meaningful variety when you're leveling.

 

This isn't really true.  It's highly dependent on the individual, what they're play style is, what their goals are, their character concept and any number of other things. 

[biostem]

2 minutes ago, Excraft said:

This isn't really true.  It's highly dependent on the individual, what they're play style is, what their goals are, their character concept and any number of other things. 

Agreed.  This is particularly notable with things like your T1 & T2 powers, as one tends to become redundant once you get some levels under your belt.  There are also many powers that are taken merely to serve as mules for IOs, which aren't nearly as useful to that character prior to them being able to slot said IOs...

[Frozen Burn]

21 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

 

Oh no. 21 years later I have hatched a diabolical plan to cheat the game. Now I'll have...more characters sitting on the shelf waiting for me to grind expensive IO sets. 

Given the tone of your post, it sounds like your maybe just set in your ways.

 

No need to be snarky or assumptive - and I am not set in my ways - I am open to new ideas and alternative things but only when I think they are good ideas, and what you proposed isn't.  Sorry if that isn't what you want to hear.

 

I get that you're bored of low end content and want something - anything - to make it more palatable for you.  Nothing wrong with that.  But I don't see your premise as a viable option - 1) for the many technical reason listed above; 2) for the Developer's philosophical reasons also stated above that it would go against; and lastly 3) rearranging power orders isn't really giving us anything "new" except a way to cheat at the lower levels.  

 

If you're bored with low level content, then volunteer to be a Staff Writer for the Dev team and create more story arcs for us.  Bring in new content.  That is what we need.  Create a whole new zone and backstory with new mobs.  Trying to rearrange existing powers isn't new, and as I stated, is just overpowered.  (And again, there are other servers out there where you can go and play that way.)

 

Even if what you suggested was implemented, you'd still get bored because the content was the same, and I'd wager you'd get bored even faster since that same content would be a walk in the park and provide very little challenge if any at all due to your higher tiered powers.

 

Edit:  Additionally, you do not have to grind to get IOs or sets to play this game - the game is still based off of SOs (except maybe Hard modes).  You don't even have to touch the IO system.  But really, they aren't a grind and are easy to obtain.  There are many threads on how to do so easily and on any budget.  

Edited yesterday at 10:36 PM by Frozen Burn

[arcane]

As others have mentioned, if you want a pure sandbox instead of a serious game, there are better servers than Homecoming for that.

[battlewraith]

20 minutes ago, biostem said:

Noted, but I still would like to know if all powers from your chosen primary, secondary, pools, and APP/PPP would be available from the get-go...

No. You have 3 slots for builds? If you used one of those slots for this mode, which would be set for normal enhancements only, the other build slots would be completely ordinary, structured the standard way.

[biostem]

3 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

No. You have 3 slots for builds? If you used one of those slots for this mode, which would be set for normal enhancements only, the other build slots would be completely ordinary, structured the standard way.

I'm asking about the powers, though.  Would they still be locked behind attaining a certain level, or would you be able to pick whatever you want, at any level?

Edited 23 hours ago by biostem

[battlewraith]

19 minutes ago, Excraft said:

Then don't play it the "normal"/traditional way. 

That's right. That's what people are doing, skipping over it. The idea is to make it interesting so that they don't feel compelled to.

 

20 minutes ago, Excraft said:

This is why we get new power sets and new content to add new and different things.

But we have this wonderful subforum where we can advise against more formulaic, cookie-cutter content. Asking for things that are actually different. 

 

23 minutes ago, Excraft said:

This isn't really true.  It's highly dependent on the individual,

I gave you my take, If it's subjective, then yes it's true for some people. You're just not one of them.

[Excraft]

4 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

That's right. That's what people are doing, skipping over it. The idea is to make it interesting so that they don't feel compelled to.

 

I can't speak for everyone, but I can tell you even if your idea were implemented, I still wouldn't play the lower level content.  There's very little that anyone, the HC people included, can do to make me want to slog through the lower levels for the umpteenth time.

 

5 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

But we have this wonderful subforum where we can advise against more formulaic, cookie-cutter content. Asking for things that are actually different. 

 

No one suggested you couldn't make the suggestion.  Of course you can, by all means, please do. 

 

[battlewraith]

15 minutes ago, Frozen Burn said:

f you're bored with low level content, then volunteer to be a Staff Writer for the Dev team and create more story arcs for us.  Bring in new content.  That is what we need.  Create a whole new zone and backstory with new mobs.  Trying to rearrange existing powers isn't new, and as I stated, is just overpowered.  (And again, there are other servers out there where you can go and play that way.)

The things you're pointing to here are what I consider to be, as a player, the least important part of this game. Particularly after 20 years. People burn through that content or ignore it completely. This is a game and throwing more varied mobs at it, or occasional new enhancements or cosmetics does nothing for the gameplay itself. 

 

20 minutes ago, Frozen Burn said:

Even if what you suggested was implemented, you'd still get bored because the content was the same, and I'd wager you'd get bored even faster since that same content would be a walk in the park and provide very little challenge if any at all due to your higher tiered powers.

 

The funny thing is that you seem to assume that the normal content is challenging, It's not. And this suggestion is not about challenge. It's about new opportunities for creating characters within a given framework. Usually when I play this game it's about testing out a build idea. It's not about grinding content.

[PeregrineFalcon]

I like your idea. If for nothing else it'd be a new experience. However, I do have a question about this:

 

6 hours ago, battlewraith said:

To make lower level content palatable again for veteran players that are used to using IO builds that don't gas out constantly.

What do you mean by 'gas out'? Are you talking about running out of Endurance? I ask because in your initial proposal you mentioned that these 'Saga Mode' characters would not be able to use crafted enhancements. Without crafted enhancements I don't see how these characters, especially at low level, won't be constantly running out of Endurance.

[biostem]

1 minute ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

What do you mean by 'gas out'? Are you talking about running out of Endurance? I ask because in your initial proposal you mentioned that these 'Saga Mode' characters would not be able to use crafted enhancements. Without crafted enhancements I don't see how these characters, especially at low level, won't be constantly running out of Endurance.

I think a lot depends upon the "rules" surrounding this proposal.  For instance, being able to take transference or a blaster's maintain at like level 2, would probably make things progress a lot easier for those characters, at least in the levels before they'd normally be able to take them...

[Stormwalker]

This idea seems to me like something that would be best placed on its own server.  Because if you put, for example, a Blaster who has their nuke at level 5 in a team with a bunch of conventional characters?  The blaster is going to completely and casually annihilate one spawn, and then the rest of the team will have to fight without them through the next two or three spawns before that nuke recharges, and... that doesn't really make for a very good team dynamic.

 

And this is just one example of the many ways it could get really out of whack.

 

Or, for an example of a way one such character could render a low-level team into demigods, imagine a Kin defender with Fulcrum Shift at level 5 in a team of normal characters.

Edited 23 hours ago by Stormwalker

[Frozen Burn]

4 hours ago, battlewraith said:

The things you're pointing to here are what I consider to be, as a player, the least important part of this game. Particularly after 20 years. People burn through that content or ignore it completely. This is a game and throwing more varied mobs at it, or occasional new enhancements or cosmetics does nothing for the gameplay itself. 

 

People ignore the content because like you said, they've played it for 20 years.  But new content, new zones, new mobs... that would engage people.  Maybe not you, but it is something new vs. just rearranging your powers. 

 

And you are also assuming everyone burns through the low levels and ignores it, when no, not everyone does.  I love the lower levels and have friends that also love them.  We read through the stories still, even though we've done them for 20 years.  

 

4 hours ago, battlewraith said:

This is a game and throwing more varied mobs at it, or occasional new enhancements or cosmetics does nothing for the gameplay itself. 

 

Yes, this is a game, and creating more stories, more mobs, more zones, more enhancements DOES do more the the gameplay as it can create new challenges and experiences.  It may not be the build testing gameplay you like, but it does in fact enhance and grow the gameplay.  

 

And what you are suggesting in your premise IS throwing cosmetics at it and really does nothing for the gameplay itself.  You are suggesting cosmetically rearranging your powers - and that will only make the low level content (that you already hate and avoid) easier and does nothing to enhance the game experience itself. 

 

4 hours ago, battlewraith said:

The funny thing is that you seem to assume that the normal content is challenging, It's not. And this suggestion is not about challenge. It's about new opportunities for creating characters within a given framework. Usually when I play this game it's about testing out a build idea. It's not about grinding content.

 

Normal content can be challenging, depending on your AT, power picks, how you slot your character, and your difficulty settings.  The game is balanced around all this.  Allowing higher tiered powers to be available at the low levels changes that balance, and only makes things easier.  And you already claim there is no challenge in normal content, so your suggestion just makes it even less so.

 

I too love testing out weird builds, character concepts, and such.  But your OP still doesn't present itself with a viable testing arena.  If you take your upper tier powers in the low levels, and you mow through already easy mobs at the lower levels - that tells you nothing in testing your build.  And if you fight upper level mobs (meaning you're higher level too), well, that also tells you nothing because you have all the powers you would have anyway no matter the order you picked them.  

 

But whatever the case, even if this is purely for playing around with a build idea and ignoring content - that's not what Homecoming is about.  Homecoming is about the content.  Again, there are other servers you can go to right now that will allow you to do what you are suggesting - just pick your powers as you see fit right from the start.  Go check it out there.

[ZacKing]

14 hours ago, battlewraith said:

The things you're pointing to here are what I consider to be, as a player, the least important part of this game. Particularly after 20 years.

 

How is saga mode going to make that any different other than to give you a nuke at level 2 so you can blow through content even faster?

[battlewraith]

8 hours ago, Frozen Burn said:

And you are also assuming everyone burns through the low levels and ignores it, when no, not everyone does.  I love the lower levels and have friends that also love them.  We read through the stories still, even though we've done them for 20 years.  

 

When the game originally launched, the expectation was that the developers would do what you're talking about: provide regular content updates, New zones, new mobs, new stories, etc,

That was untenable, even when they had the largest base of paying customers. They couldn't keep that up, so they added badges. Once people wasted a certain amount of time on badges, they left for other games. I was in a few mid sized sgs that left en masse to go play other games.

 

The reason I stayed was because they added the arena. The arena, and later the pvp zones, kept a subset of the playerbase engaged with this game for years, with little support from the development team. Likewise they added AE, for the purpose of allowing players to produce content. Theoretically people like you shouldn't have to wait on the devs for story content. There should be an endless amount available all the time through AE. But in actuality, it primarily serves the purpose of PLing past the stuff you and your friends apparently love. I have little doubt that if they removed AE the game would fold. 

 

The arena, AE, and this idea are about gameplay, not content. If it was only about content the game as it is now, would not be a thing. Hell, you even have people that spend most of their time on the market.

 

9 hours ago, Frozen Burn said:

And what you are suggesting in your premise IS throwing cosmetics at it and really does nothing for the gameplay itself.  You are suggesting cosmetically rearranging your powers - and that will only make the low level content (that you already hate and avoid) easier and does nothing to enhance the game experience itself. 

 

So which is it? It's just cosmetic and does nothing for the gameplay, or it's unbalanced and going to make things too easy?

 

If you jumped ahead and looked at one of these characters as it approaches 50, It would be pretty much just another character in terms of power, almost certainly underpowered without IO sets. The biggest splash would be the early levels--which are also the levels which go by the fastest anyway. The idea is not to make it easier--easier is sitting for a couple or farm runs or doing several DFBs. The idea is fun. Novelty. The complaints here are about the level range which has the least significance in the scheme of things, particularly when perpetual double xp is available.

 

9 hours ago, Frozen Burn said:

I too love testing out weird builds, character concepts, and such.  But your OP still doesn't present itself with a viable testing arena.  If you take your upper tier powers in the low levels, and you mow through already easy mobs at the lower levels - that tells you nothing in testing your build.  And if you fight upper level mobs (meaning you're higher level too), well, that also tells you nothing because you have all the powers you would have anyway no matter the order you picked them.  

 

You're missing the point of the proposal. It's not about testing a build. It's about injecting some new life into those earlier levels. Instead of PLing or grinding the umpteenth scrapper the traditional way, use this to experiment with weird combos. Make wacky experimental builds. If it gets to the point where it's not working out, go to the trainer and just switch back to a normal build slot and respec into a normal build. 

9 hours ago, Frozen Burn said:

But whatever the case, even if this is purely for playing around with a build idea and ignoring content - that's not what Homecoming is about.  Homecoming is about the content.  Again, there are other servers you can go to right now that will allow you to do what you are suggesting - just pick your powers as you see fit right from the start.  Go check it out there.

 

I suspect HC means different things to different people. The suggestions forum is literally for that: suggestions. If you don't like it, fine I heard your objections. But you and other people need to stop directing people you don't agree with to other servers. Your out of line.