Inherent Fitness power bugged?

[DIGITAL_JEDII]

Dear CoH Homecoming Dev Team, Can you please assist GM Solace and I?

 

This past Sunday I submitted a bug ticket for the inherent fitness power in which GM Solace responded to:

 

Question:  Inherent Fitness swift, can you please elaborate why enhancement slotting for this power advises it accepts both run speed & flight speed enhancers but will not accept hypersonic enhancement (fly speed).

 

Thanks for all that the entire team does - long live the best MMO ever created 🙂

 

Hi DIGITAL_JEDII,
GM Solace has replied to your support request.
 

Re: Inherent Fitness, swift That is a really good question, and I don't have any answer for it. I don't see anything in the recipe or enhancement that would explain the limitation. The most effective way to get this to the development team who can address this issue is to post it within the appropriate section on the forums:   For problems with existing parts of the game: Bug Reports   Please take the time to look at the active threads in those forums to see if someone else has already started a relevant thread and add your information to it.  If there is not one, do create a new thread and be heard!   Thank you for sharing this with us, and please take the time to post it on the forums where it can be seen by the people who need to see it and discussed with other players!   Thanks, Homecoming Team

 

 

 

[arcane]

Working as intended…

[DIGITAL_JEDII]

No it's not hence GM's response - read before you post!

[Captain Fabulous]

12 minutes ago, DIGITAL_JEDII said:

No it's not hence GM's response - read before you post!

Swift and Hurdle don't accept any IO sets enhancements. It's not a bug, it's by design. Compare it to Sprint, which does take IO sets.

[arcane]

56 minutes ago, DIGITAL_JEDII said:

No it's not hence GM's response - read before you post!

The GM clearly didn’t know what they were talking about. This is not a bug.

[DIGITAL_JEDII]

PAY ATTENTION - "READ" what I said before you post rather than embarrass yourselves further - GM Solace knowns what he's talking about - you don't!!!

[Wavicle]

GM Solace made a mistake. Swift doesn't take any sets, only basic enhancements, as you can see in the photo.

[Ridiculous Girl]

10 hours ago, DIGITAL_JEDII said:

Question:  Inherent Fitness swift, can you please elaborate why enhancement slotting for this power advises it accepts both run speed & flight speed enhancers but will not accept hypersonic enhancement (fly speed).

 

8 hours ago, Captain Fabulous said:

Swift and Hurdle don't accept any IO sets enhancements. It's not a bug, it's by design. Compare it to Sprint, which does take IO sets.

it is working as intended. 

 

the difference is that swift only takes regular enhancements for running and flying; i.e. SOs (single origin) or IO (invention origin) generic enhancements. it is deliberatly limited in this way. ONLY regular enhancements.

 

as Captain Fabulous points out, sprint specifically takes regular AND set enhancements, ones that enhance running speed and/or jump. it states that it ONLY enhances running speed/jump, while taking regular running/jumping enchancements, and sets that enhance running/jumping. NOT flying sets.

 

i think the GM was simply stating that they do not know why that it is that way, but you can, and did, submit a bug report. but, as happens often with me, it gets pointed out that this is WAI, that this is the way it is supposed to work. it's a 20+ year old game, it's riddled with strange things that sometimes make no sense. but it does say in the power description that it takes enhancements, that is to say regular ones. it does not say that it accepts set enhancements.

 

what it says on the box is what it means. you may disagree with it, but it is not a typo nor a bug. it's a feature, not a bug. that is how it is meant to work. they designed it that way, and it is not misleading, it is pretty straight forward. regular enhancements only, no set enhancements.

Edited Monday at 05:14 AM by Ridiculous Girl
oops, fixed errors made because of lack of coffee

[Parabola]

Among other balance reasons for not allowing set enhancements to be slotted in free auto powers this prevents the noob trap of slotting a stealth IO in a power that cannot be turned off. IIRC this was allowed once upon a time and it caused no end of problems on escort missions.

[Rudra]

7 hours ago, DIGITAL_JEDII said:

PAY ATTENTION - "READ" what I said before you post rather than embarrass yourselves further - GM Solace knowns what he's talking about - you don't!!!

Everyone is reading what you posted. Please calm down and take the time to evaluate what is being stated in response. In your provided picture, Swift says it has running speed and flying speed as allowed enhancements. However, there is nothing for allowed enhancements sets categories. If there is no entry for allowed enhancements sets categories, then no sets may be slotted. That means that Swift accepts SO and generic IO enhancements for running and flying speed, but does not accept sets for either. Hypersonic is a "Flight No Sprint" set. Swift does not accept sets. So you can't slot any enhancements from the Hypersonic set in that power.

 

GMs make mistakes. They are just as human as the rest of us.

 

Edit: To be clear, the "Allowed Enhancements" entry only tells you what regular enhancements can be slotted in a given power. It is the "Allowed Enhancements Sets Categories" entry that specifically identifies what sets can be slotted. The two entries do not always line up. And if there is no "Allowed Enhancements Sets Categories" entry for the power, then no set enhancements can be slotted in it. Assault from the Leadership pool is the same way. It has an entry for allowed enhancements that says "Reduce Endurance Cost, Enhance Recharge Speed". It has no entry for "Allowed Enhancements Sets Categories" however. So if you try to slot any set enhancements in it, even if it is only an endurance reduction or recharge reduction enhancement, the power will not take it.

 

Edited Monday at 08:49 AM by Rudra

[DIGITAL_JEDII]

I'm not getting into a further tit for tat over this, clearly people did not read and or comprehend what my initial inquiry was regarding and have since pivoted once it became clear.  My inquiry was for the devs to elaborate on why no allowed enhancement set is accepted beyond D.Os, S.Os or invention.     

[Rudra]

1 hour ago, DIGITAL_JEDII said:

I'm not getting into a further tit for tat over this, clearly people did not read and or comprehend what my initial inquiry was regarding and have since pivoted once it became clear.  My inquiry was for the devs to elaborate on why no allowed enhancement set is accepted beyond D.Os, S.Os or invention.     

Because it was deemed that it should not. The devs almost never explain why something is done and the current dev team is not the dev team that set up the power that way. (Edit: And @Parabola gave as good a reason for why that could have been done as any other reason you might get.)

 

Edited Monday at 05:05 PM by Rudra

[Marine X]

The why... who knows, most of this was done by the original Devs who are not here anymore. My guess is since they are now free auto powers, with no endurance cost, they didn't want them to become Set Mules, so they didn't open them up to be Enhanced with Sets. Granted they were still a Pool Power Set when Invention Sets were introduced in Issue 9 but have never allowed Sets to be slotted. That's 10 issues before they became Inherent, so I'm sure there was a reason, just not sure what it was. These days it is a freebie, and very useful in a lot of builds.

Sorry this has become a sore spot for the OP, if I went to the trouble of Crafting or buying an Enhancement I would want to be able to use it.

 

From the Wiki for Informational purposes:

Overview

Inherent Fitness is a set of Inherent Powers. They are all Auto Powers, providing their bonus at no cost to Endurance. They can be enhanced like other universal inherent powers such as Rest and Sprint.

Fitness was changed from a Power Pool to an Inherent Power in Issue 19. The old level requirements were level 6 for Swift and Hurdle, level 14 for Health, and level 20 for Stamina.

Inherent fitness powers were changed to unlock at level 1 rather than level 2 in Issue 27 Page 2.

[lemming]

9 hours ago, Parabola said:

Among other balance reasons for not allowing set enhancements to be slotted in free auto powers this prevents the noob trap of slotting a stealth IO in a power that cannot be turned off. IIRC this was allowed once upon a time and it caused no end of problems on escort missions.

Parabola has the stated reason for this.

[DIGITAL_JEDII]

5 minutes ago, Marine X said:

The why... who knows, most of this was done by the original Devs who are not here anymore. My guess is since they are now free auto powers, with no endurance cost, they didn't want them to become Set Mules, so they didn't open them up to be Enhanced with Sets. Granted they were still a Pool Power Set when Invention Sets were introduced in Issue 9 but have never allowed Sets to be slotted. That's 10 issues before they became Inherent, so I'm sure there was a reason, just not sure what it was. These days it is a freebie, and very useful in a lot of builds.

Sorry this has become a sore spot for the OP, if I went to the trouble of Crafting or buying an Enhancement I would want to be able to use it.

 

From the Wiki for Informational purposes:

Overview

Inherent Fitness is a set of Inherent Powers. They are all Auto Powers, providing their bonus at no cost to Endurance. They can be enhanced like other universal inherent powers such as Rest and Sprint.

Fitness was changed from a Power Pool to an Inherent Power in Issue 19. The old level requirements were level 6 for Swift and Hurdle, level 14 for Health, and level 20 for Stamina.

Inherent fitness powers were changed to unlock at level 1 rather than level 2 in Issue 27 Page 2.

Someone who gets it - refreshing!

[Captain Fabulous]

16 hours ago, DIGITAL_JEDII said:

PAY ATTENTION - "READ" what I said before you post rather than embarrass yourselves further - GM Solace knowns what he's talking about - you don't!!!

There is absolutely NO reason to be rude. You posted in a bugs forum, claiming the inability to slot a set enhancement into a power that does not take any set enhancements is a bug. It's not. Despite your repeated protestations we did actually read what you posted, and I went out of my way to load the game and take screenshots to show you how to recognize when powers can take set IOs, and that Swift does not. It's not a bug. It was done this way on purpose.

If you believe this limitation on Swift and Hurdle should be changed you can post that in the Suggestions forum. But as others have pointed out, there's at least one good reason why this limitation exists.

[DIGITAL_JEDII]

17 minutes ago, Captain Fabulous said:

There is absolutely NO reason to be rude. You posted in a bugs forum, claiming the inability to slot a set enhancement into a power that does not take any set enhancements is a bug. It's not. Despite your repeated protestations we did actually read what you posted, and I went out of my way to load the game and take screenshots to show you how to recognize when powers can take set IOs, and that Swift does not. It's not a bug. It was done this way on purpose.

If you believe this limitation on Swift and Hurdle should be changed you can post that in the Suggestions forum. But as others have pointed out, there's at least one good reason why this limitation exists.

The force is weak with you!

[Psyonico]

11 hours ago, Rudra said:

GMs make mistakes. They are just as human as the rest of us.

I’ll add that GMs are not devs, so while they’re on the same page with big stuff, they don’t necessarily know all the nuances as to why things are done.  And that’s before you factor in that the HC team has nothing to do with the people who made the original decision to not let sets be slotted in swift/hurdle.

[GM Solace]

On 4/20/2025 at 3:57 PM, arcane said:

The GM clearly didn’t know what they were talking about. This is not a bug.

I admit, I was in error. I didn't double check before I answered. I blame a lack of caffeine, and apologize for my error.

[GM_GooglyMoogly]

On 4/20/2025 at 2:43 PM, DIGITAL_JEDII said:

Question:  Inherent Fitness swift, can you please elaborate why enhancement slotting for this power advises it accepts both run speed & flight speed enhancers but will not accept hypersonic enhancement (fly speed).

As stated by Captain Fabulous, complete with pretty pictures, generic flight and speed enhancements are permitted, but not any set enhancements.

 

 A long time ago, in a place far, far away, the original developers removed the ability to slot Set IOs in the Inherent Fitness Power.  One reason was stated above: People were slotting one of the stealth procs and ended up not being able to complete escort missions.

 

If you ever have a doubt about acceptable enhancement slotting in the future, you might check out https://cod.uberguy.net/.  Here is the entry for Swift: https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=inherent.fitness.swift

 

And you can compare that to Sprint here:  https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=inherent.inherent.sprint

 

In the top right of both boxes are the allowable enhancements.  Round ones are generic and hexagonal ones are set IOs.

[DIGITAL_JEDII]

15 minutes ago, GM_GooglyMoogly said:

As stated by Captain Fabulous, complete with pretty pictures, generic flight and speed enhancements are permitted, but not any set enhancements.

 

 A long time ago, in a place far, far away, the original developers removed the ability to slot Set IOs in the Inherent Fitness Power.  One reason was stated above: People were slotting one of the stealth procs and ended up not being able to complete escort missions.

 

If you ever have a doubt about acceptable enhancement slotting in the future, you might check out https://cod.uberguy.net/.  Here is the entry for Swift: https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=inherent.fitness.swift

 

And you can compare that to Sprint here:  https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=inherent.inherent.sprint

 

In the top right of both boxes are the allowable enhancements.  Round ones are generic and hexagonal ones are set IOs.

I appreciate GM_GooglyMoogly input and opinion but an I.O enhancement like the one I mentioned in my post (Hypersonic fly speed / increased fly) is "not" an abuse of said power and therefore should be allowed - not just an out right ban because of previous stealth I.O abuse. 

Edited Monday at 09:30 PM by DIGITAL_JEDII

[DIGITAL_JEDII]

21 minutes ago, GM Solace said:

I admit, I was in error. I didn't double check before I answered. I blame a lack of caffeine, and apologize for my error.

GM's are always forgiven as they work for free.  This topic has now expanded into a broader venue and I invite constructive opinions to comment further.

[Rudra]

1 hour ago, DIGITAL_JEDII said:

I appreciate GM_GooglyMoogly input and opinion but an I.O enhancement like the one I mentioned in my post (Hypersonic fly speed / increased fly) is "not" an abuse of said power and therefore should be allowed - not just an out right ban because of previous stealth I.O abuse. 

No one said anything about an "abuse of said power". Even the stealth IO explanation is not an "abuse of said power".

 

If you want the devs to change Swift to accept sets, then you are pitching a suggestion. This is the Bug Reports forum. This where things that aren't working the way they are supposed to get reported. Hypersonic not being able to be slotted in Swift is not a bug.

 

(Edit: And here is the problem you run into with a request to let Swift accept sets. Sets are tracked by category. The Flight enhancement sets include Freebird, which has the stealth proc. And the Running enhancement sets include Celerity which also has a stealth proc. So letting Swift slot sets brings back that perma-stealth so the character can't escort NPCs problem.)

 

Edited Monday at 10:43 PM by Rudra

[DIGITAL_JEDII]

27 minutes ago, Rudra said:

No one said anything about an "abuse of said power". Even the stealth IO explanation is not an "abuse of said power".

 

If you want the devs to change Swift to accept sets, then you are pitching a suggestion. This is the Bug Reports forum. This where things that aren't working the way they are supposed to get reported. Hypersonic not being able to be slotted in Swift is not a bug.

 

(Edit: And here is the problem you run into with a request to let Swift accept sets. Sets are tracked by category. The Flight enhancement sets include Freebird, which has the stealth proc. And the Running enhancement sets include Celerity which also has a stealth proc. So letting Swift slot sets brings back that perma-stealth so the character can't escort NPCs problem.)

 

Allow me to clarify, at one time the power accepted invention I.Os but was bugged - why remove allowed enhancement because of a bug rather than fix the bug?

Edited Monday at 11:06 PM by DIGITAL_JEDII

[Rudra]

13 minutes ago, DIGITAL_JEDII said:

Allow me to clarify, at one time the power accepted invention I.Os but was bugged - why remove allowed enhancement because of a bug rather than fix the bug?

Where are you getting that quote from? It's not anywhere on this thread. @Parabola has one post on this page and that isn't in it. Relevant quote here:

15 hours ago, Parabola said:

Among other balance reasons for not allowing set enhancements to be slotted in free auto powers this prevents the noob trap of slotting a stealth IO in a power that cannot be turned off. IIRC this was allowed once upon a time and it caused no end of problems on escort missions.

 

 

Edit: Also, your provided quote doesn't address anything I posted. So I'm at a loss as to its point.

 

Edited Monday at 11:19 PM by Rudra